Make tenacity great

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

personally i throw TEN on my tanking gear when crit isnt available, since i dont need DH on WAR and it's what? half of DET's damage but with tanky bonus effects (damage reduction and increased healing), which i've found is helpful for the non-WHM healers and my massive hp pool. gets decent use on DRK as well due to them effectively lacking 2 defensive cooldowns half the time.

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I'm just not really seeing it tbh. If you for example replaced every DET meld in the warrior BiS set with TEN you would still only end up with something like 1326 Tenacity, which isn't even 3% passive mitigation. Let's assume the boss actually hits you for 50k per auto attack, that's still only 1500 damage mitigated from your Tenacity, it's barely noticeable, the miniscule amount is not gonna make a healer change the way they heal and it's certainly not gonna be the difference between dead and alive.

Personally I would like to see something in the realm of removing the passive defense stats in favor of a class specific stat. Incoming WoW reference!

But I really liked the gem slotting of mastery for a class. Each class had a inherent specific stat that you could enhance through "melding" to increase your roles effectiveness.

Example for WoW warrior with shield: Stat mastery gave you critical block. I don't remember the values, but stack your mastery to the moon and it allowed you to block more, increase your chance to block critical hits more, and also increased your attack power. Base values were 4% block for maybe 50 mastery, and then 150 mastery it would be 8%. It would just go higher and higher until you capped out. It wasn't "required" but somewhat necessary to improve your tankiness

Example for FFXIV: Warrior would be passive parry mitigation. Paladin would be passive block chance/amount. Dark Knight would be passive incoming healing. Gunbreaker would be passive dodge/evade.

Slotting materia into this mastery stat would increase your job specific stat and each job would be less "homogenized" persay. Since we won't every get skill trees, and tenacity/parry/block offer nothing really worthwhile. Then I say allow the tanks to shore up their weaknesses.

VIT really dictates how much damage a tank can absorb ever since they changed that in Heavensward? (memory escapes me) Where the tank main stats where changed to dictate your defense/dps, and we began to see the downward trend in reliance on ten/parry/block stats since stacking them hard didn't really offer much value. But stacking STR (when you could) CRIT, DET, DH took the front see when agro was a problem up until shadowbringers anyway.

You can go FULL TEN and still hold agro as the main tank, but then high end duties predominantly require you to meld for attack over defense. It's kind of weird that tanks need to bring the pain more then being a fortress of defense. I suppose nobody likes playing with gimp dps even if it is a tank. Big numbers go BRRRR.

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

tanky bonus effects (damage reduction and increased healing), which i've found is helpful for the non-WHM healers and my massive hp pool.

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I want to add that the "increased healing" does NOT apply to healing effects OUTSIDE of your own healing! That means that most healing does NOT get buffed, and is neither helpful for non-WHM healers nor WHM healers. It only buffs your very own healing i.e. WAR Equilibrium and Storm's Path combo heal, nothing more, nothing less.

I know the description is very confusing and misleading actually. I just wanted to clear the misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

I want to add that the "increased healing" does NOT apply to healing effects OUTSIDE of your own healing! That means that most healing does NOT get buffed, and is neither helpful for non-WHM healers nor WHM healers. It only buffs your very own healing i.e. WAR Equilibrium and Storm's Path combo heal, nothing more, nothing less.

I know the description is very confusing and misleading actually. I just wanted to clear the misunderstanding.

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WHAT!?
That's nutty.
If it had better breakpoints I could see it being nice on DRK, or PLD comps with no healer, but man this really changes how I see the stat.
Thanks for the info.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

I want to add that the "increased healing" does NOT apply to healing effects OUTSIDE of your own healing! That means that most healing does NOT get buffed, and is neither helpful for non-WHM healers nor WHM healers. It only buffs your very own healing i.e. WAR Equilibrium and Storm's Path combo heal, nothing more, nothing less.

I know the description is very confusing and misleading actually. I just wanted to clear the misunderstanding.

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didnt know that. i mean... at least it's still decent for WAR with all the selfheals i guess. that's quite the blow.

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

didnt know that. i mean... at least it's still decent for WAR with all the selfheals i guess. that's quite the blow.

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The problem with WAR is that you would have to check if the extra healing from TEN outweights the dps loss from not melding DET. Because both Storm's Path's and Nascent Flash's healing are also increased by DET since their healing is based on your damage output.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Because both Storm's Path's and Nascent Flash's healing are also increased by DET since their healing is based on your damage output.

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You are right about Nascent Flash's healing scaling with damage output, but Storm's Path has its own cure potency. Nevertheless, DET increases healing output, too, so at the end of the day, the increase from DET is still greater than from TEN.
At least afaik...
The description about DET says: "Affects the amount of [...] HP restored by healing spells." That is already incorrect. It also increases healing abilities!
Whereas TEN description: "Affects the amount of [...] HP restored. The higher the value, [...] the more HP restored[...]." Even tho it seems like those 2 description state different effects, that is not the case. The only difference in both stats are the tiers / scaling by point efficency.
i.e. +660 DET increases damage and healing output by 2.6%; +660 TEN increases dmg and healing output, and reduces dmg taken by 2%

But there WILL be TEN on gear (and thus BiS) eventually, and then the only time you WANT to meld TEN is when you reach gain more or the same as if you would meld DET (or DH). That's because of stat tiers. Iirc the current (still tenative) omni-tank BiS has some TEN melds instead of DET/DH melds.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The problem with WAR is that you would have to check if the extra healing from TEN outweights the dps loss from not melding DET. Because both Storm's Path's and Nascent Flash's healing are also increased by DET since their healing is based on your damage output.

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Due to how multipliers work, the difference between +3k Crit, +3k Det over min and +3k Crit, +2k Det & +1k Ten over min is ~.75% less damage and potency based heals (i.e. heals like Storm's Path), a ~2.4% net increase for damage based heals (heals like Nascent Flash) and a 3% reduction in damage taken. As long as Determination and Tenacity are roughly equal you end up with a fairly significant increase in survivability at a minor cost in damage.

The biggest actual factors in Tenacity sucking is actually the fault of Crit outperforming both Determination and Tenacity by a wide margin. Crit, due to being factored twice into damage calculations, ends up having escalating returns on damage rather than diminishing returns. Going from +2k Crit to +3k Crit is a bigger damage increase than +1k Crit to +2k Crit. It starts out worth less per equivalent amount of points but quickly ends up worth more per amount than all the others.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Due to how multipliers work, the difference between +3k Crit, +3k Det over min and +3k Crit, +2k Det & +1k Ten over min is ~.75% less damage and potency based heals (i.e. heals like Storm's Path), a ~2.4% net increase for damage based heals (heals like Nascent Flash) and a 3% reduction in damage taken. As long as Determination and Tenacity are roughly equal you end up with a fairly significant increase in survivability at a minor cost in damage.

The biggest actual factors in Tenacity sucking is actually the fault of Crit outperforming both Determination and Tenacity by a wide margin. Crit, due to being factored twice into damage calculations, ends up having escalating returns on damage rather than diminishing returns. Going from +2k Crit to +3k Crit is a bigger damage increase than +1k Crit to +2k Crit. It starts out worth less per equivalent amount of points but quickly ends up worth more per amount than all the others.

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Yeah this rings true for me. 3k of any stat has been the test method, and it really starts to soft cap there it seems. 3k CRIT you hit like a truck with an RNG aspect of how high the number can go. 3k DET your auto attacks and non crit/DH are much stronger. 3k DH and your hitting 25% harder more often with no RNG of the outcome damage number.

Downside to all of this is CRIT/DH usually win out, and some classes just aren't designed for DH (warrior) and I would favor DET as my secondary, and SKS to around 1500 if I can muster the slots. But when I switch to Paladin my numbers are gimped as paladin benefits greatly from DH. This is a problem I think SE needs to work, and maybe I'm in a small group of people that have all tanks maxed and play them all depending on what mood i'm in. Warrior is still my main and i'm glad I switched from paladin. I like paladin fine and was my main from 2.0 to 5.0, I just wanted something new and fell in love with warrior especially after 5.35 changes.

Maybe they should decouple the defensive and offensive effects so they can scale separately, as long as it divides well. Like, imagine if every 16 Tenacity gave DR, while every 32 gave bonus damage/healing. Would kind of make the defensive difference stand out; since it's still not as much damage as another meld many would still discount it, but at least it might appeal to players running DF and stuff.