Standard : Legacy movement toggle support

No you don't ever have to move in an arc. Standard movement forces you into it in some situations, but it is by no means necessary in any case. I'll say it again, just move in a straight line to where you need to be. That's it. I also never once said you only have to stay at the transition to be able to do positionals. If you think I did then you need a lesson in reading comprehension.

I'm ignoring your bad attempts at humble bragging about the skill needed to use legacy because it's just a humble brag and either Legacy is easier or harder, not both.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

You're changing the context.

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No, you're ignoring the context.

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You were refuting the having to move in archs and that you only need to stay at bosse's corner to move between rear and flank.
I brought up the fact that you do need to move in archs in certain situations such as boss moving around, tank moving around, aoes, and other situations.

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The fastest way to change positionals is a straight path perpendicular to the flank/rear boundary line.
https://i.imgur.com/bH4F8cH.png

If your goal is to maintain a certain distance from the target's center -- that is, to stay on, just inside, or just outside the target ring -- the fastest way to change positionals is a straight line to the nearest rear/flank boundary at your chosen distance. Circling around the enemy requires moving a longer distance.
https://i.imgur.com/XdkdNQp.png
An arc from point A to point B is longer than a chord from point A to point B by a factor of x/(2sin(x/2)), where x is the central angle between the two points. This follows from the chord length formula a=2Rsin(x/2) where a is the chord length, R is the radius of the circle, and x is the central angle between the two points; and the arc length formula s=xR, where s is the arc length, R is the radius of the circle, and x is the central angle between the two points.

If you have to change positions while avoiding puddles, straight line paths (or paths made of straight line segments) will still be your fastest option except in the case that the puddle is centered on the target and is large enough to obstruct your straight line path.

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As for the moving away from aoe in standard movement. Ask a similar question to controller users having to swap around xcross bar to execute skills. It's a matter of skill, some people are able to take advantage of certain settings while overcoming their shortcomings; a foreign concept to you it seems.

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Your analogy is irrelevant. Hotbars have nothing to do with movement. If you are using standard movement, you move in the direction you're facing. There are many AoEs that you just absolutely cannot dodge while backpedalling, so that's not an option. You have to turn away from the boss to dodge a PBAoE, but using an action on a target requires you to face the target. This means that there are two possible outcomes when you are forced to dodge a large AoE.

• You have to stop attacking while you dodge, because you cannot face away to dodge while simultaneously facing the target to hit it with an action.
• You will stop dodging while you attack, because you cannot face the target to hit it with an action while simultaneously facing away to dodge.

So either you're racking up avoidable downtime by not attacking or you're taking avoidable damage by not dodging. If you can somehow manage to avoid the PBAoE and maintain uptime, via immaculately timed camera movements, congratulations but:

It doesn't matter how good you think you are with standard movement. The truth is that even if you can play well with standard movement on, you are making things harder on yourself. The extra effort of trying to reconcile your character's facing so that you don't rack up downtime and you don't take unavoidable damage is unnecessary effort that you would not have to spend energy on if you just used legacy movement, which means you could spend that cognitive effort on something else like mechanics or rotation optimization if you switched to legacy.

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*dusts off his Razer Tartarus Pro*

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Maybe dust off your math books instead.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

No, you're ignoring the context.


The fastest way to change positionals is a straight path perpendicular to the flank/rear boundary line.
https://i.imgur.com/bH4F8cH.png

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I know this. What you don't seem to understand is that you need to still do an arch in that situation. As the boss moves, you also move, creating an arch.

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If your goal is to maintain a certain distance from the target's center -- that is, to stay on, just inside, or just outside the target ring -- the fastest way to change positionals is a straight line to the nearest rear/flank boundary at your chosen distance. Circling around the enemy requires moving a longer distance.

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Clearly you skimmed over my comment, I stated this; what you seem to be missing is that bosses are not stationary or are tanks, you will have to move a good distance because of these 2 factors, the third being mechanics.

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Your analogy is irrelevant. Hotbars have nothing to do with movement. If you are using standard movement, you move in the direction you're facing. There are many AoEs that you just absolutely cannot dodge while backpedalling, so that's not an option. You have to turn away from the boss to dodge a PBAoE, but using an action on a target requires you to face the target. This means that there are two possible outcomes when you are forced to dodge a large AoE.[list]

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Who said I stop attacking when a boss moves by wide margin? You do know we're playing a game with a high GCD? And you're talking to me about math? Hah, hilarious. And no, I'm not dodging attacks running back; nowhere did I state such a thing.

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Maybe dust off your math books instead.

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Stop projecting; skills-based systems are not won on math, they're won based on skill. You can throw all the math you want at a "sport" or a video game but rarely are those the people that have the most skills, nor the ones that win the tournaments or championships.

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No you don't ever have to move in an arc. Standard movement forces you into it in some situations, but it is by no means necessary in any case. I'll say it again, just move in a straight line to where you need to be. That's it. I also never once said you only have to stay at the transition to be able to do positionals. If you think I did then you need a lesson in reading comprehension.

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Straight line implies that the boss is only moving on the X axis when that's clearly not the case; in many situations the boss does aoes that cover its entire body as well. What you both seem to not understand is that I'm not talking about striking dummies, I'm talking about bosses that continually have mechanics and aoes; and not all are the same size either. But of course, these factors are foreign to you.

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I'm ignoring your bad attempts at humble bragging about the skill needed to use legacy because it's just a humble brag and either Legacy is easier or harder, not both.

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The irony, you talk to me about reading comprehension and nowhere did I say that legacy movement is harder than standard. What I stated is that for some jobs, specially melee, standard movement seems to be more appropriate, in my experience. I never said it was hard using it on melee; but like I said, I'm completely not surprised.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

I know this. What you don't seem to understand is that you need to still do an arch in that situation. As the boss moves, you also move, creating an arch.

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Again, no, you don't need to move in an arc in any of those situations. A straight line is still better. A boss turns to use an ability on someone, run through the boss in a straight line to where you need to be. Boss runs over to a new spot in the arena, move to your new position in a straight line. If somehow the boss moves far enough that you have to use multiple GCD while it is moving then just move in a series of straight lines to the positions you need to be at for each GCD. Tank continually turns the boss, just run through the boss as needed. Arcs are pretty, but they're not efficient movement in a 2D plane no matter the situation. If there's a large circlular AoE that you're already out of range of but you want to move along the edge of the AoE without entering it to position yourself closer to the target at first glance sounds like a time this might be useful since if the boss is in the middle of said AoE then standard movemement makes it slightly easier to move around the AoE like this. But if the boss is at the centre then there's no reason to want to move around the AoE to reposition since you're already as close as possible and if the boss is not at the centre since you would have just moved in a straight line to the closest edge in the first place anyway. The only situation it might actually be needed would be something like the final boss of Holminster where you have to move around the boss to avoid AoE. I will grant that standard movement works slightly better for that situation. So like 1% of the time? And that's ignoring avoiding the AoE in the first place by running away from the boss with all the issues that standard movement causes to that.

I'm not against having a toggle for this, although I don't think it's needed. You can always tell when someone is using standard movement in-game because of they way they turn before moving or turn as they move causing them to move in an arc, and it is clearly a huge minority of players. And for good reason. That said, I don't even care if someone wants to hamstring their movement this way for whatever reason. The only issue I have is with your claim that a precise arc (not "arch" by the way, that's a different thing) is required to be able to land positionals as a melee. That's just plain false.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

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Your only examples are dungeon bosses? Ok, clearly I'm talking to someone whose extent of gameplay is limited to dungeons.

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I'm not against having a toggle for this, although I don't think it's needed. You can always tell when someone is using standard movement in-game because of they way they turn before moving or turn as they move causing them to move in an arc, and it is clearly a huge minority of players. And for good reason. That said, I don't even care if someone wants to hamstring their movement this way for whatever reason.

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Whether you think a toggle is needed or not doesn't ultimately impact the decision. Clearly it matters to square enix enough to have standard movement as an option since it's already an option in the game. What that reason is we have no official word about it, but I can surmise that they understand that all UI settings are personal preferences which should be there. Even the developers themselves make my suggestion for a toggle more valid; they themselves included standard movement. Moreover, I don't think you know what an arch is nor the fact that trial bosses are not striking dummies; Innocence alone proves all of my points, many archs in that fight; Hades extreme? Yeah I don't think you understand that I'm not talking about dungeon bosses.

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The only issue I have is with your claim that a precise arc (not "arch" by the way, that's a different thing) is required to be able to land positionals as a melee. That's just plain false.

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Incorrect, I never said that. You might want to actually read the statements before addressing them. Arch, arch, same word.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Incorrect, I never said that. You might want to actually read the statements before addressing them.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

specially on monk where going from back to side constantly requires a precise "arch;" specially visually.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Arch, arch, same word.

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Yes, Arch and arch are the same words regardless of capitalization. Arc is the word you want.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Yes, Arch and arch are the same words regardless of capitalization. Arc is the word you want.

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Yes, very convenient to leave out the part where I said in my personal experience, within the very same sentence you quoted; nor did I say it was "required" to land positionals. Now that you have nothing left to quote we're down manipulating and quoting half sentences?

Arch and arc, you know that's what I meant, based on the fact that I was quoting you. They're both the same word, so much so that arch when used as a verb is a very appropriate term to use.

Math.

Any time you move in a curve, there is a straight line that connects the start point of that curve and the end point of the curve that is shorter then the length of the curve.

No matter how much all the points involved are moving. A straight line is the shortest distance between two points in a flat grid reference frame.

On a striking dummy/dungeon bosses, yes.