damage buffs for MCH?

About the movement tax, someone also pointed out that summoner for example has 40% of its abilities as procs and instant cast and even then in a pinch can use ruin2. Red mage 50% of its abilities are instant cast regardless. And that’s not including holy/flare/scorch which are all instant and it’s melee abilities.

Ranged are being cucked on their dps because of an outdated mindset

"Mobility tax" never made sense.

-For healers AST is by far the most mobile and has the highest dps.
-Melee are all mobile and due to fight design rarely have to leave the boss for more than 2-3 GCD's.
-They aren't that simple. Bard for example has 2 DoTs and Songs to juggle along with constant oGCD's that need weaving correctly and can easily clip or be lost by fresh procs.
-SMN has lots of instant casts, Rez utility and no dps penalty.
-Ranged can't run off doing laps in Narnia. You need your buffs to connect with the whole raid, you need to be in range of others buffs, you need to be in aoe heal range and inside Star/Asylum/Soil.

The only advantage phys ranged really has over melee is a few GCD's. Maybe 1% or so. Dps should reflect that.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

"Mobility tax" never made sense.

-For healers AST is by far the most mobile and has the highest dps.
-Melee are all mobile and due to fight design rarely have to leave the boss for more than 2-3 GCD's.
-They aren't that simple. Bard for example has 2 DoTs and Songs to juggle along with constant oGCD's that need weaving correctly and can easily clip or be lost by fresh procs.
-SMN has lots of instant casts, Rez utility and no dps penalty.
-Ranged can't run off doing laps in Narnia. You need your buffs to connect with the whole raid, you need to be in range of others buffs, you need to be in aoe heal range and inside Star/Asylum/Soil.

The only advantage phys ranged really has over melee is a few GCD's. Maybe 1% or so. Dps should reflect that.

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Preach brother/sister!!!

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Indeed, ranged DPS are gutted of their DPS and no one knows why.
Many thought it was related to mobility but SMN has 40% of its casts that are instant and not punished by mouvement. BLM also has crazy mobility if you use your abilities.

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SMN and BLM mobility relies on knowing the fight. Likewise melee dps require uptime strats which require knowing the fight.
Phys ranged are by far the most mobile in blind fights, and that's where the issue comes into play, world first prog.
Without a damage trade-off for their mobility, phys ranged would be favoured far too much in world first attempts.

i think SMN just needs a big nerf tbh. and i said this as someone who spent most of my 6 years playing this game as smn. even during the absolute heaviest movement fights, you can settle on just ruin 2 for few seconds before you can go back to slinging spells full force

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

i think SMN just needs a big nerf tbh. and i said this as someone who spent most of my 6 years playing this game as smn. even during the absolute heaviest movement fights, you can settle on just ruin 2 for few seconds before you can go back to slinging spells full force

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no one job on the game deserves a big nerf, given what the summoner was in 5.0 until 5.1 the damage he was doing was a compensation, he already take two nerfs, a 3rd n ' is absolutely not deserved for shadowbringer, on the other hand a revisiting of its kit for the 6.0 yes, but for the moment it is necessary to stop claiming nerfs and buffs when it is absolutely not a solution for fixing all balance problem .


the phys ranged dps will always have a lower dps than the other jobs because even if the casters have movement tools they still do not have the mobility of the physical ranged dps, on the other hand I agree that the tax of dps should be much lower, and the machinist should have dps similar to a summoner / red mage.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

SMN and BLM mobility relies on knowing the fight. Likewise melee dps require uptime strats which require knowing the fight.
Phys ranged are by far the most mobile in blind fights, and that's where the issue comes into play, world first prog.
Without a damage trade-off for their mobility, phys ranged would be favoured far too much in world first attempts.

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Breathes in
Despite this, mobility still brought nothing and first week clears still had rangeds at the bottom. I don't know for Eden's gate, but it was the case of Eden's verse.
If I remember well, there was some melee jobs at the bottom but they got above very fast while SMN and BLM remained at the top since the beginning.
If your reasoning was right, rangeds should be in the middle during prog, but it wasn't the case.
I can't find data for that, it's based on memories, I can't manage to grab the first weeks data...

I personally believe mobility is not what gives an advantage, range gives an advantage.

Also, I don't think it's a great idea to balance jobs for one/two specific weeks when the patches/prog are more than 3 months apart.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

I didn’t want an argument or a back/forth. But in my opinion the fact that there’s a 10% gap between the top and bottom dps tells me that ranged dps as a whole is underperforming. To clarify I do not believe that they should match or beat melee/mage dps but I do believe that 10% which is around 2000 dps less is too large a gulf. 5% would be more acceptable. A few things that annoy me are:

Movement tax. This is dumb because there are literally zero mechanics which utilise this capability making the tax pointless.

Job ease. This is dumb, as the devs change jobs throughout the years they get more or less complex. Mch for example used to be one of the most complex in 3.0 and now less so.

100% uptime: yes, I know hence agreeing they should be below everyone else but 10% is still too much.

No positional or cast times. Same as above

In conclusion. I do agree that ranged dps should be bottom of the pack. I do also believe they’re underperforming by a large amount

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It doesn't matter what the gap is, if you were forced to bring a range the gap could be 300% and it would still be fine, numbers are abitrary for the sake of balance. To be frank, it just sounds like some people want big numbers for the sake of it and just want to be "top dog" and don't really care for balance.

Movement tax doesn't mean as much as it used to, but it is not dumb. BRD and MCH have free movement and don't care about which way mechanics are handled for 99% off the time. DNC has a bit more nuance with AoE Procs and dances but even then they also have En Avant to help.

I can agree with this, but this isn't just exclusive to range, all jobs are easier than their previous iterations.

They're fine as they are, if anything melees are underperforming. They need to be right up there as a whole next to SMN/BLM with BLM being top. Ideal comp is 2 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster, but SMN being overperforming (as they've admitted and as we know) lets them be interchangeable right now with another melee, which is unintended.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

It doesn't matter what the gap is, if you were forced to bring a range the gap could be 300% and it would still be fine, numbers are abitrary for the sake of balance. To be frank, it just sounds like some people want big numbers for the sake of it and just want to be "top dog" and don't really care for balance.

Movement tax doesn't mean as much as it used to, but it is not dumb. BRD and MCH have free movement and don't care about which way mechanics are handled for 99% off the time. DNC has a bit more nuance with AoE Procs and dances but even then they also have En Avant to help.

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The gap matters, for many reasons.
One most obvious is that there is 4 DPS spot. You bring 2 Casters or 2 Melee, but if you bring 2 Ranged you are punished with low damage despite the double range mobility bringing nothing to the table. Addle has more presence than Tactician&Co. In PartyFinder you can easily experience parties limited to a singled ranged, that's mainly why I learned Samurai. And it's not only based on my experience alone.

You can't force the ranged role in parties either, that's a terrible and lazy idea. It's like being forced to bring your little brother or forcing someone to play the thief in cops&thief game. No one would want to be forced to play something especially if they damage would not matters.

Movement tax why not. But makes it worth something.
SMN is a monster right now, even post nerf. It has a valuable raise that brings a lot during progress, much more than mobility.
Again, despite the mobility advantage, ranged were lower than any other DPS on the first weeks, exactly where mobility should have shine.
And again, ranged don't have rDPS nor utility that would excuse such a gutting.

The ranged role is not fine. It went from a valuable support that could make the difference with manasong and mitigation to just a DPS with one mitigation and some extra for some.
The big support part was removed/gutted from rangeds and it wasn't replaced with anything.
Ranged role needs a rework, you can't slap a silence on it and a 1% stats to everyone and call it a day.

Casters have more support than ranged, they have a high mobility and remains top rDPS.
There is no mechanics that requires you to run like a monkey everywhere and during big mechanics, especially in ultimate content, you can't even target the boss. The GCDs loss is not that important, the uptime lost to mechanics doesn't makes the difference unless you compare Casters and Melee.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

They're fine as they are, if anything melees are underperforming. They need to be right up there as a whole next to SMN/BLM with BLM being top. Ideal comp is 2 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster, but SMN being overperforming (as they've admitted and as we know) lets them be interchangeable right now with another melee, which is unintended.

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sorry but why exactly does blm need to be top in your equation ? because last i checked ranged (even if they are casters) are at least better than melee at handling mechanics that require to be away from the boss so casters as a whole should be lower than melee if we go by ability to handle mechanics. also even IF smn is still overperforming, you yourself stated time and time again that only balance inside a role itself matters, so a "balanced" smn would still be balanced against blm (the class you actively want to be top dps).

yes, this means that smn needs to deal at least some dps below blackmage, but add the fact it can rezz on top and one could again say they offer equal "value". if blm and smn were really balanced against each other by definition smn (and by extension redmage) needs to offer to the group something of a value at least close to equal to blm, i.e. close to being top dps.

so yea, what is it ? should casters be equal to melees or should they not ? because if blackmage should be equal to them, or even superior than the same has to go for the other 2 casters for them to be truly balanced against each other.

also again, if "having the easiest time to handle mechanics" needs to be punished than "having an easier time handling mechanics/the potential to handle them with no or only minimal loss compared to the competition" (casters compared to melee) has to account for something aswell.