Will we ever go to this Alternate Future?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

While we're clearly in agreement that we should not visit the alternate timeline, I'm not following your logic as to why we cannot.

We don't lack the ability to perceive the bad future because we died in it, we cannot perceive it because we're not the "us" that came from that timeline. Even if they were alive, they are no longer functionally the same person and we can't somehow see what they see.

If we did somehow acquire the ability to visit the other timeline, it wouldn't matter if our other self is alive, dead, or anything inbetween because we aren't them. We'd be a different "instance" of the same base person, but not exactly the same or from the equivalent point in time.

Alternately, if you're arguing from the assumption that "we can't get to the bad future because we're not on the right track for it", that's true... but it's just as true for G'raha. His younger self hails from the other timeline originally but his actions have sent him onto the same "other track" that we are on as well, so that origin doesn't give him any advantage now.

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We can't perceive a present in which "we" do not exist; ergo any time traveling to the future will necessarily branch off from the present in which "we" do exist. Considering that, we can't visit the Bad Future without some... shenanigans. He does exist in the Bad Future so G'raha can in theory, but even if the conditions were right our limited ability to perceive time makes this prohibitively difficult if not impossible.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

We can't perceive a present in which "we" do not exist; ergo any time traveling to the future will necessarily branch off from the present in which "we" do exist. Considering that, we can't visit the Bad Future without some... shenanigans. He does exist in the Bad Future so G'raha can in theory, but even if the conditions were right our limited ability to perceive time makes this prohibitively difficult if not impossible.

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Well no, we can't perceive something if we're not there. But going there would involve the "us who exists" travelling to the other timeline, therefore we would arrive there and perceive it for ourselves.

It doesn't matter if the "other us" is there because we aren't going into their body. We are taking our body to their world, whether they're there or not.

Meanwhile, a version of G'raha exists in the other timeline but it is not the same G'raha that would presumably be travelling alongside us. If we arrived prior to "future G'raha" departing to the First, "our G'raha" could come face-to-face with him and they would not be the same physical person.

Again, I don't see how the existance of the other G'raha in the other timeline makes it any more possible for ours to visit the other timeline. They are divided as if by physical space. It's just as hard for either of us to go there.

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Originally Posted by ClaireFaye

What do you all think? Is there potential in this timeline to get an expansion someday? I mean, time travel is possible?

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I think we, and the Scions, have just done a whole lot of work to make sure we do NOT end up in that timeline. So no, we are not going there.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Well no, we can't perceive something if we're not there. But going there would involve the "us who exists" travelling to the other timeline, therefore we would arrive there and perceive it for ourselves.

It doesn't matter if the "other us" is there because we aren't going into their body. We are taking our body to their world, whether they're there or not.

Meanwhile, a version of G'raha exists in the other timeline but it is not the same G'raha that would presumably be travelling alongside us. If we arrived prior to "future G'raha" departing to the First, "our G'raha" could come face-to-face with him and they would not be the same physical person.

Again, I don't see how the existance of the other G'raha in the other timeline makes it any more possible for ours to visit the other timeline. They are divided as if by physical space. It's just as hard for either of us to go there.

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We can't perceive the Bad Future because we didn't experience it. We can't experience (observe) it since, from our perspective, it exists as nothing more than a possibility that never came to be. Whether or not we physically survived is immaterial.

G'raha, on the other hand, did observe it; it's not just a possibility to him. It's very real from his perspective, therefore he should theoretically be able to return to it.

Time is not easy to navigate moving forward. Out of infinite tessellating possibilities, you'd have to pinpoint the exact one where events played out exactly like they did as G'raha experienced them to get to the Bad Future from which he hails. Our limited ability to perceive time makes this utterly impossible without outside assistance. We didn't experience the events that led to the Eighth Umbral Era, therefore we simply cannot observe the Bad Future from which G'raha as we now know him hails. Thus, going to and interacting with it is impossible as far as we are concerned.

Time travel is complicated, for kupo's sake.

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tl;dr:

Our perception of time is different from G'raha's. He perceived time as [Bad Future] -> [Good Future], while we only perceived [Good Future]. Therefore by traveling back through his personal time, G'raha should in theory be able to return to the Bad Future. The Bad Future isn't part of our own time, so without an observer we can't go there.

I think we have enough problems to worry about in our own timeline first.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

We can't perceive the Bad Future because we didn't experience it. We can't experience (observe) it since, from our perspective, it exists as nothing more than a possibility that never came to be. Whether or not we physically survived is immaterial.

G'raha, on the other hand, did observe it; it's not just a possibility to him. It's very real from his perspective, therefore he should theoretically be able to return to it.

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I am still very confused as to how you are picturing this working.

I think you're picturing that to get to the alternate timeline, we have to travel back to somewhere pre-split and then forward along the other path.

I still don't see how that would have any relevance to the version of ourself that dies in the Eighth Calamity. Travelling back in time doesn't revert us to being our earlier self, but puts a second copy of ourself in that earlier world - otherwise G'raha travelling back from the future wouldn't have arrived in the First to become the Exarch, but would have reverted to being his original self still asleep in the tower. Therefore, the survival of our other self has no bearing on our ability to arrive in, or perceive, the other timeline for ourselves.

The statement that "we didn't experience the events of the other timeline so we can't know what it's like" is... inherent. Of course we haven't had our other self's experience but we wouldn't be needing it because we don't need to travel precisely in their footsteps.

We can't simply get to the other timeline by going back in time and "living through" the split in some deliberate manner to take a chosen path. The split itself creates two copies of us - one who is (and always was) part of the bad timeline and one who is part of the good timeline. And still we are a separate entity to our younger self who is fated to die in the Calamity.

The whole thing is horrendously complicated and I still don't know if I'm even understanding your point or arguing against it correctly because I can't understand how time travel could rely on another self's perception instead of our own action of travelling there.

Also, G'raha observed a very small part of that other timeline, nowhere near the point where they diverge. Anything about the events leading to the Calamity are distant history to him, not something he knows in great detail.

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In any case if they were ever going to do a plot where we visited the other timeline, they might simply invent some kind of new higher power of travel - closer to Omega's direct navigation across the rift - so there would be no need to navigate back and forth through time to get there. Maybe still forth, after we got there. It's all still terribly messy but as long as we only visited a point after soon-to-be-Exarch G'raha left, we wouldn't actually be risking breaking the timeline because by going to the future, not the past, there is no risk of us doing anything that would contradict our knowledge of the past (and thus trigger a split timeline).

Still. I don't think we're doing it in any case because it would be narratively over-fiddly for the sake of going somewhere that is, narratively speaking, better left unvisited. But you're overcomplicating the reason why it wouldn't work.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The whole thing is horrendously complicated and I still don't know if I'm even understanding your point or arguing against it correctly because I can't understand how time travel could rely on another self's perception instead of our own action of travelling there.

Also, G'raha observed a very small part of that other timeline, nowhere near the point where they diverge. Anything about the events leading to the Calamity are distant history to him, not something he knows in great detail.

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You gotta break it down into key events. Things are not as simple as us just going to the Bad Future.

The sequence of events that led to the Bad Future are:

[A] Story plays out through 4.3. None of the Scions' souls are dragged out of their bodies to the First; war with Garlemald goes on.
[B] After making some progress (or even shortly after defeating Elidibus-Zenos), Varis uses Black Rose and triggers the Eighth Umbral Calamity. The PC dies as a result.
[C] Two centuries of labor later, Ironworks survivors open the Crystal Tower and reawaken G'raha.
[D] After retrofitting the Crystal Tower for spacetime travel, G'raha is sent to the First a century ago from its relative perspective.
[E] Midgardsormr awakens and pledges to watch over Biggs III and the rest as they rebuild.

The problem is that [D] messes things up, distorting [A] and negating [B] in its entirely. That sends time down a different path, the "Good Future."

[W] As hostilities with the Empire escalate after 4.3, the Scions souls are gradually dragged out of their bodies by G'raha over to the First.
[X] We fail to defeat Elidibus-Zenos, and are later pulled over to the First by G'raha. Varis elects not to use Black Rose.
[Y] The events of Shadowbringers play out, negating the threat of the Eighth Umbral Calamity and killing the last of the unsundered Ascians.
[Z] G'raha transmigrates from his Crystal Exarch self to his Source self sleeping in the Crystal Tower in the Good Future.

Having experienced the Bad Future (slumbering or otherwise), for G'raha going there would be as easy as moving backward through timespace because he's a part of both timelines. We're not a part of the Bad Future timeline, so we can't perceive it - moving forward will just create another timeline branching off of the Good Future timeline, and unlike G'raha the Bad Future is not part of our (relative) past. We'd need a bridge between the timelines and someone or something with the power to observe our existence in the Bad Future to conceivably go there, neither of which are in ready supply.

Yes, it's complicated. Time is not a simple thing to move backwards or jump forward through.

Suffice to say I also have many, many doubts we'll ever be going to the Bad Future timeline.

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The whole thing is horrendously complicated and I still don't know if I'm even understanding your point or arguing against it correctly because I can't understand how time travel could rely on another self's perception instead of our own action of travelling there.

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I'm not arguing the fact that this needs to happen. It was just a random idea that popped into my head and I was curious if anyone else out there thought it would be possible. I'm not saying that we will go there or that we should go there since it would be very confusing.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I think it's very unlikely, for the same reason I think it's unlikely that we'll ever run into more fragments of Azem's soul or travel to other reflections: They've already explored the idea pretty well with Shadowbringers, and doing it a second time—whether we're traveling to a new world, the past or future, or a new timeline—would likely just tread the same ground over again. That said, I don't think it's completely out of the question.

And I have to say, the idea of dropping a line like "It's good to see you again, Hades" to Emet-Selch's face tickles my funny bone.

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I'm generally against the idea for the reasons you stated, too. But that interaction would almost make it worth it. Imagine the look on his face. (Logically, it might be a different face at that point, but they could keep him looking like Solus for rule of cool or something.)

Frankly, The Echo might allow the WoL to catch glimpses of the future, after all it is G'raha's relative past.

I think is it a bad idea to actually visit it though, especially since its denizens are now moving beyond us. To come to a timeline where we failed to save them would likely rouse feelings of regret in us and resent in those that we meet, and all we'd be doing is hindering their chance to move on. We'd be to them what the Ascians are to us, a remnant of a bygone era that is better left buried.

Much like Aumarot it is not something we are able to save, and much for the same reasons. A branching timeline would be the best possible result from this.