6.0 Red Mage speculation

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

This is the main thing I would add to the job if I was the decision-maker, except have it be Ice and Water for black and white versions respectively. That covers two of the 5 skill additions, so here's my list of things I'd like to see (not in any particular order:

-Zornhau: level 90 ability, AoE weapon finisher with same range as Moulinet but more damage. Primary target takes more damage than additional targets (to balance being able to use it both in melee and aoe rotation.) Usable only immediately after any of Scorch, Verblizzard or Verwater. Costs 10/10 mana to use the enchanted version. Replaces Moulinet and/or Redoublement on the hotbar when able to be used.

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I'm assuming when you say use it in both melee and AoE rotation you mean single target and AoE rotation.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't it be a bad idea if Zornhau consumes 10/10 mana after a scorch combo? It would raise the requirement to use enhanced version to 90/90 mana if it was allowed in both Single Target and AoE combo, which would throw off the initial trigger of 80/80 mana triggering enhanced state on the crystal and require manafication to be used at 45/45 rather than 40/40. RDM gains around ~20 mana with ST for one element if they were dualcasting with verfire/verstone so it would require around 4 more GCDs and a higher chance of overcapping.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Well actually what happened is you completely missed that the OP is sassy snark about the devs' lack of care put into RDM, and the MP part itself was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the terrible state the job was in on ShB release.

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Wdym "lack of care"? RDM was one of the most polished and intuitive jobs the game has had upon its initial release in 4.0 and the devs have only built on that further.

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Originally Posted by waifugenerator

Wdym "lack of care"? RDM was one of the most polished and intuitive jobs the game has had upon its initial release in 4.0 and the devs have only built on that further.

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Shadowbringers release, RDM would actually run out of MP given enough time during an encounter. Effectively killing the use of carrying a raise and making the class inherently frustrating to play.

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Originally Posted by kajv95

Shadowbringers release, RDM would actually run out of MP given enough time during an encounter. Effectively killing the use of carrying a raise and making the class inherently frustrating to play.

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Is this still an issue? I literally unlocked RDM tonight specifically because I was frustrated I couldn’t support anyone as Black Mage when things go sideways. (So much death in those 24 mans!!)

No, they fixed it quickly. There's always minor balancing issues like it that crop up at the start of every expansion.

RDM does not need MP recovery. I can do my rotation for like 7 min without coming close to running out of MP, and in that time I'd have 7 Lucid Dreaming's. You're only running out of MP if you're spamming verraise.

I can see them adding a combo action to Moulinet and that procs an AoE spell finisher (Ardor/Vercomet). But that would really only help for dungeons and not be very useful for raiding since very few raids have AoE situations. Maybe a 2nd gauge that fills as we spend finishers and use that bar for some other kind of fancy oGCDs like how BRD has a Soul Voice gauge for Apex Arrow.

Adding on to the thread, I personally would enjoy something along the lines of what AST got, MP recovery on an integral part of the rotation. Lucid Dreaming feels a little like a set-and-forget kind of thing, like how Heavy Thrust on DRG was kind of just a thing that you needed to do every so often. Not that what we have now doesn't work - it definitely does, it's just that it's the one thing that feels like it doesn't really flow well with what's otherwise such a smooth job. And hopefully Embolden can start affecting casters or something, I dunno.

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Originally Posted by MorionQ

Is this still an issue? I literally unlocked RDM tonight specifically because I was frustrated I couldn’t support anyone as Black Mage when things go sideways. (So much death in those 24 mans!!)

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Thank the heavens they fixed it rather quickly. It's just odd how it came to be, since I feel like that's something that would've come up in testing. Red Mage on release was kind of in a really bad spot, being easily the worst caster with overly high "raise tax" too. It's all much better now, possibly thanks to every single caster thread derailing into "RDMs have it much worse!" at the time.

That’s a relief to know, thank you guys.

Personally I'm hoping that we get some of if not all of the following

1. Verflood and Verfreeze as aoe finishers. Can either go one then the other, or one then scorch to transition to single target damage easier (verflood or verfreeze- scorch for example)
2. Verflare's sound to be changed to something that sounds like an explosion. something closer to exdeath's or voidwalkers flares
3. Scorch to have its sound changed to something other than a dull thud
4. Enchanted moulinet to get a cost and damage increase, and proc verflood/verfreeze
I'm picturing the rotation like this: verthunder 2- impact, veraero 2- impact, ench moulinet, verfreeze, verflood, back to start

5. Corps a corps and displacement to get charges

Other thoughts for spell/ability ideas that could work but not really bothered about

Scheitelhau- Parting-hew, a german sword technique designed to pierce certain guards through the principle of überlauffen, "overrunning" or "overreaching"- a sword action that burns excess black or white mana in order to get back into balance, on cd for some considerable time to prevent overuse
None of the other classes really get punished for screwing up so why do rdm? (personally I'm against the idea of most jobs being able to get off free for not playing hteir kit correctly, but this is more along the lines of SE thinking)

Verultima- A capstone achieved via two stacks of elemental balance. One stack of elemental balance is granted every time the b/w gauges get above 80. Verultima does powerful single target damage plus fixed aoe damage and grants the buff elemental harmony
Elemental harmony: gives 10% damage buff for next 5 abilities

I don't expect to see a lot of expansion to our Melee (like branching combos or anything) -- not without first shoring up our Magic significantly to reduce the 40-second delay between Melee phases. It would be counterintuitive to increase the effective cost of our Melee per rotation by adding more Mana-consuming skills necessary to maximize output, unless we got to a point where we're generating more Mana than we can possibly burn with our normal rotation.
Which, to be fair, does seem to be a theme throughout our leveling experience: Acceleration at 50, Manafication at 60 (and its improvement), the Verfinishers at 70 and Scorch at 80 all are balanced to shave a couple GCDs off that delay on average. It will not surprise me at all when that particular trend continues at 90, well before we become any type of Spellblade hybrid.

With regards to getting an AoE Combo Finisher... maybe? Considering how high level it would be, I expect it would more likely be some kind of proc or cooldown that would be applicable in both single-target and AoE -- like how Foul was a BLM finisher for both scenarios before they got a single-target equivalent, or how SMN and WHM got skills for both like Deathflare and Afflatus Misery. If a proc, maybe something that occurs more often via Enchanted Moulinet hitting multiple targets, as with Thundercloud or Quick Nock. If a cooldown, perhaps something where the timer is reduced by each successful cast of Enchanted Moulinet -- something they could easily do with Contre Sixte now.

There is the possibility of the whispered Raise Tax being "addressed", but I would need to hear more about any plans for Healer changes before I say anything to that. At the moment SMN doesn't pay such a tax for their Raise, and Verraise isn't particularly meaningful in end-game content anyway since most comps would sooner wipe than cast it. I have my own ideas about it, but it remains to be seen whether it's on their radar to begin with.

As far as evolving the job goes, yes we have what could be considered a whole rotation so a lot of naysayers will claim there's nothing more to add, but mechanically we're very simplistic and still have room for additional growth and dev creativity, particularly considering how little change we got this expansion compared to other casters. The AoE changes were welcome, but considering we had 10 Scatters per Moulinet before, it was more "past due correction of a seeming oversight" than truly "growth".

In the barest minimum of terms, I could see at least one of three things happening as an evolution to the job:
1) A new proc effect (a la Thundercloud/Firestarter) -- something like a new instant spell that accelerates our average Mana gain by a couple seconds. Kill two birds with one stone by having it be used in AoE as well.
2) A timer, like a DoT or a buff to maintain through the rotation (a la Enochian, Trances, Blood of the Dragon, Darkside, etc) -- something that might replace every 5th Jolt/Verfire/Verstone, for instance.
3) A tertiary resource that functions as a charge system for a new ability (a la Polyglot, Dreadwyrm Aether, Blood Lily, etc).
Personally I think the first two are more in line with the job (considering our relationship with Mana is already essentially equal to Ninjutsu or the Blood Gauge, so I don't see the devs giving us the same mechanic again). Admittedly the latter two categories seem more likely to have room for actual player engagement, but the first still has potential depending on the nature of the proc, like if it actually prompts a choice (which considering how our Mana already works, seems plausible to implement)... provided it can set itself apart from the two Ready procs we already have, without breaking the system.

Otherwise, largely just damage/Mana traits and new cooldowns. Maybe a personal Lightspeed/Trance/Triplecast-type cooldown to silo out some Veraero/Verthunder/Impacts and get to our melee rotation a little faster, or adding a small Mana boost to Fleche (3/3?) and Contre Sixte (1/1 per target hit?), or putting our movement skills on charges in addition to reducing their CDs so they continue to line up with our melee rotation. There are still ways to safely bulldoze Engagement and push its role onto Corps-a-Corps to clear a little bar space (and they could always just put the melee combo on one button like in PvP since there is no reason to separate it except to chew on more buttons, given how linear the combo is)... not that we necessarily need that much more space, since we're still pretty light compared to someone like SMN even with 3 Opposite Mana Clone pairs.