Everything wrong with 5.3 AST sleeve draw [Translated JP duplicate thread]

Hey guys,

I had time to deal with these changes and I have to say. That it feels comic but more pleasant. However, I know the rDps is suffering. I just hope the developers let this change. The stress factor is smaller. BUT what divination has to do! This skill must show the cards that are lost. And that works with several because of:

- Fortune telling gives a bigger DPS push (8% -10% as the balance deems it right) [that sounds like a lot but you have to think that cards have disappeared due to SD! Please note this]
- The duration of divination has to be increased to 24-30sec (as the balance considers it correct).

So everyone can be helped. Firstly, those players who pay attention to their rDPS and those who enjoy this pleasant game style.

The people who want to undo the change can only be told that changes have to come, otherwise a job cannot develop further. And for my part, I am satisfied that you are flexible and my concerns that cards will now be eliminated, but I say that it is up to divination to get these falling rDps out. I think shuffling the cards can be enough. (Especially in healing intensive phases of a fight when I look in the direction of Ultimates, for example.)

I thank you for reading my post and wish you all a great weekend.

Marius Heilstos

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Seems SE is going to make some people unhappy one way or another...

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True, but perhaps they should be making the people who enjoyed AST happy. The people who liked playing the "busy" healer with its complex openers and rewarding optimization. We have WhM as the simple healer and ScH as an in-between. They could put their focus into developing and polishing 3 unique playstyles instead of destroying them.

It's a bad idea to try and please the crowd that doesn't actually enjoy a class. The people who want bits of AST, like its mobility or it's incredible healing, but don't want to play the class itself to get that. The only option there is ripping the class away from its fans, gutting it and then handing it over on a plate to the people who didn't even like it that much and probably still won't like it long-term.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

However, I know the rDps is suffering.

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It isn't.

The rankings for the new patch are in. AST still outDPSs every tank and every other healer. The exception being, of course, if you look at the top 3 or so logs. But, for actual percentiles, AST is still on top.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

The people who want to undo the change can only be told that changes have to come, otherwise a job cannot develop further. And for my part, I am satisfied that you are flexible and my concerns that cards will now be eliminated, but I say that it is up to divination to get these falling rDps out.

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You are misunderstanding the point of this post. We don't care that AST DPS was nerfed, if anything that was the right thing to do to balance it with DPS contributions of its counterparts. Its HOW they did it. We are pointing out that adjustments that heavily penalize people that try hard are both demotivating and ineffective.

We have suggested alternative options of how to improve QoL for those that found old Sleeve hard while not ruining the game experience for more skilled players. Please read it again and have a think.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It isn't.

The rankings for the new patch are in. AST still outDPSs every tank and every other healer. The exception being, of course, if you look at the top 3 or so logs. But, for actual percentiles, AST is still on top.

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You are making no sense. How is losing 2 cards per 3 minutes not a DPS nerf? What matters if it still outDPSs other jobs, it's still a nerf is it not? And what makes you think logs post partition at this point are in any way indicative of job strength when pretty much no top tier player has pulled properly yet?

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

This actually can be said about every job . every job post HW continually suffers from the simplification/elimination of many fun optimizable complexities.
I really hope SE hears this. it is in all honesty for me what hurts shadowbringers as an expansion the most. i may enjoy the story , the hard fights but when my job turned to worst it took out not all but some of my enjoyment of the game.
To put an example, In stormblood i loved doing dungeons as smn , it felt fun and cathartic .
Now though it just doesnt feel the same way , sure our dps is top notch and our utility really good but thats not the problem with the job, the problem is that the changes they put in 5.0 that have persisted since now. Pets no longer feel like they "exist" , without aetherflow our roots are detouched and hang like rotten limbs and we didnt gain anything from its removal.
Trance is not nearly as good of a clock as aetherflow ,bahamut became slower now that it doesnt interact with ogcds , trance joined with pheonix its a button that can be a massive dps loss depending the fight and it doesnt feel as rewarding as stormblood bahamut.
In stormblood the play style was extremely punishing , since a death meant you would go back to the start but it rewarded you with higher highs, free movement and it gave you a rotation that was so fluid you basicly wrote the fight ,which was fitting for a the tactician job.
Shadowbringer summoner retains a lot of it but to put it better, in stormblood you wrote the rotation to see how you would get the most out of it, while in shadowbringers you write it to see how you will lose the least out of it.

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Has any job improved to this degree since SB? Pardon my cynicism, even the new jobs are very safe and it makes me very worried for the future. kids dont play this game stop making it kid friendly yoshi P. as i like to yell out from time to time MAKE IT HARDER

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

True, but perhaps they should be making the people who enjoyed AST happy. The people who liked playing the "busy" healer with its complex openers and rewarding optimization. We have WhM as the simple healer and ScH as an in-between. They could put their focus into developing and polishing 3 unique playstyles instead of destroying them.

It's a bad idea to try and please the crowd that doesn't actually enjoy a class. The people who want bits of AST, like its mobility or it's incredible healing, but don't want to play the class itself to get that. The only option there is ripping the class away from its fans, gutting it and then handing it over on a plate to the people who didn't even like it that much and probably still won't like it long-term.

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This was MCH folly, As a old MCh main i cannot for the life of me enjoy this toothless job anymore and was satisfied with 4.0 burst damage and double bullet procs 4.0 had such massive room for improvment but they dumed it down to please people that never leveled the thing resulting in a wave of "new" mains. Every job has its own strengths some are easier than others trying to please everyone by trivializing the job ruins what made it stand out. As whats going on wit Astro. it makes me scared of any potential rework im glad Astro has such negative reception as well as a few other jobs maybe theyll learn... or not and continue to shave off the job until its reduced to 2 buttons, watch out monks yall next

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Or, give current Sleeve Draw 3 charges.

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That still does nothing for the lost optimization and the fun previously to be found therein.

I much preferred the old version.

Sadly, balanced card design of any sort reveals how poor controller support is for mid-GCD target-weaving. I'd just have hoped that have it'd then make a good excuse to address those previously subtle controller issues rather than repeatedly backing away from a balanced and enjoyable card system (first by refusing to balance Royal Road: Expand and Balance, and now by watering down what's come since).

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Originally Posted by hiz

You are making no sense. How is losing 2 cards per 3 minutes not a DPS nerf? What matters if it still outDPSs other jobs, it's still a nerf is it not? And what makes you think logs post partition at this point are in any way indicative of job strength when pretty much no top tier player has pulled properly yet?

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He's right though. There's a few thousand 5.3 parses and WhM/ScH line up with last patch so they seem reasonably accurate. It might settle at a few hundred dps give or take, but overall while it is a rdps nerf, it's not a large enough one to push AST from top rdps spot.

AST now has top rdps, top mobility, buckets of mana and is easier to play. It's the best healer in the game by far.

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Originally Posted by hiz

You are misunderstanding the point of this post. We don't care that AST DPS was nerfed, if anything that was the right thing to do to balance it with DPS contributions of its counterparts. Its HOW they did it. We are pointing out that adjustments that heavily penalize people that try hard are both demotivating and ineffective.

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It is not evident what is then from point 1-2. Then the problem is there.

1. Says that the optimization has ceased. Taking stress as a positive factor in style of playing is not a good idea. There are also players who have been given a certain distance by this additional burden. And ultimately it was more of a deterrent.

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The cooldowns of Divination and Sleeve Draw are 120s and 180s respectively, so for 1 in 2 Divinations it is physically impossible to utilize Sleeve’s new search effect, and we are simply required to obtain Seals with less cards. In fact, we are now forced as a result to spam Redraw with cards we were previously able to play, and have far less options regarding Minor Arcana. We also now need to wait prepull for Draw recast in order to use Divination for opener, which feels bad in PF context.

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At this point I have to say that it sounds very much like the rDPS is nerfed. According to the motto kings and queens fall away. The cards had to be shuffled was already the case in 5.2.

Regarding the point of criticism that SD is now preparing fewer options, there is only one statement that is partially correct. Because getting the 100% correct card requires less pressure to have options and work with RNG factors.

That we ALWAYS have to wait 30 seconds for the cards before the pull. I already had it because I usually used an MA card (King or Queen) as the first card in prepull. So so group had to wait 30 sek anyways.

In my opinion, the whole point 2 only has something to do with rDpS and the factor that you have to wait 30 seconds beforehand. This is already the case in patch 5.2!

I've already written something about that, which wasn't relevant for you. Because the question "This implementation is flawed as a QoL improvement in the first place" goes exactly on this point.

To the solution:

The simple step back from SD is again a step backwards in a stressfull way to play the cards out. This change results in an optimization. (albeit in a passive way!) You don't have to knock out 3 cards and hope that you get a 6% divination. That now 2 cards are omitted and if there is rDps, but with a view to the fact that you no longer have to change too many destinations in the opener.

Has the developer solved this solution in a lazy way? YES, but relieve stress under the primis. Now we have to see how the elimination of cards and "little problems" with the pull of non-disciplined PF groups affects itself.

Heilstos your level of misunderstanding is so large I am beginning to suspect it is because of my bad English, and I will apologize for it. I will try once more.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

At this point I have to say that it sounds very much like the rDPS is nerfed.

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No. I don't know what part of "We don't care that AST DPS was nerfed~it was the right thing to do" was ambiguous, but I will say it again. The job was too powerful, it needed a DPS nerf. If they nerfed Malefic 4 by 10 potency I have zero issues whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

1. Says that the optimization has ceased. Taking stress as a positive factor in style of playing is not a good idea. There are also players who have been given a certain distance by this additional burden. And ultimately it was more of a deterrent.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

To the solution:
The simple step back from SD is again a step backwards in a stressfull way to play the cards out. This change results in an optimization. (albeit in a passive way!) You don't have to knock out 3 cards and hope that you get a 6% divination. That now 2 cards are omitted and if there is rDps, but with a view to the fact that you no longer have to change too many destinations in the opener.

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I feel the fundamental misconception in your argument is your assumption that pre 5.3 SD was universally a stress factor. It may have been for you, but it was certainly not for people that can press buttons. If you feel that this change is somehow positive in optimization context, you are forcing me to assume you have never optimized anything in this game (I am not implying that this is bad, I am pointing to this as a potential reason why I'm not coming through to you).

Here is a translated sample of optimized P2 opener for E8 that we came up with, where we spreaded every job's potency timeline so every card played returned maximum expected potency. It may be hard for you to understand, but we ENJOYED spending time thinking about what's best, and felt rewarded by the material gains we saw from correctly executing this. For people like us it was NEVER a stress factor, and most contrary to a deterrent; this was exactly the fun factor of this iteration of the job, that made us feel it was worth playing. New SD has dumbed this down into nothing, and we now have half a job to play with. ←THIS IS OUR PROBLEM WITH NEW SD

What we suggested for players like you that found old SD difficlut/stressful to manage was to give them the option to randomly autoplay the cards drawn. As far as I'm concerned, I'm fine if randomplay mode guaranteed three seals. That way people like you don't have to press buttons, and people like us that care to optimize for increasing 1% expected damage can go on theorycrafting on an interesting mechanic, and we thought this is the best for both worlds.