How do we feel about tank damage right now?

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Originally Posted by Samsta

The only percentage where whm deals more than tanks is 99% cheese percent which is something you should never be looking, under a normal gameplay that doesn't happen.

I don't simply feel the damage disparity is pointless, because it truly is, it's just inside your head, like I said the content is balanced around the expected damage, nothing would change in gameplay or meta if all tanks were buffed the exact same amount, you would just see bigger tank numbers in your parser, the fights would be designed around that and they would last just as long and your "contribution" would be just the same.

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No matter what you choose to make of the numbers, it really shouldn't be possible imo and I feel it shows that tank damage is low. Especially when you consider that the difference is consistently small below the 99th percentile.

And it's definitely a difference in how you feel. It's not about how the content is balanced, it's about how the jobs are balanced and the work it takes to deal damage compared to the results. When I switch from healing to tanking and find that I'm working much harder to dps for barely more damage? This is something that I think matters.

I hate seeing convoluted damage formulas used just to curtail a specific class or role, which seems to be what happens to Tanks from 71 to 80. That said, I don't especially mind where tanks have ended up damage-wise. I think it could be a bit higher, as I didn't actually mind a highly-skilled tank outperforming a not-particularly-skilled DPS back in the day, but it's fine as is, and I suppose this is where it will have to be now that they've even further gutted the actual tanking aspects of tank gameplay as of Shadowbringers.

This is another reason why i am not running parser.
I main war at the moment and seeing me at the bottom of the list feels just weird.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

The higher you go up the percentile, the smaller the gap. It gets considerably smaller until it's practically nonexistant between WHM and tanks. And sure, that's an unreasonable expectation in the average group. I do, however, think it's silly and only further shows that tank dps is low this xpac. Even at more reasonable levels of play the difference is small and, as I've mentioned, doesn't reflect the difference in effort for maintaining rotations along with the utility of the roles.

Since I frequently play all of the roles I always see the numbers of the job I'm playing and compare that to the effort I'm putting in. I do find it frustrating that I work much harder to maintain my damage on tanks for what feels like less of a return. I understand that you feel it's pointless, and it's okay for us to feel differently about it.

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It is never, ever a good thing to consider balance based around the top end of a game. FF14 showed, with it's history, without a shadow of a doubt, that a game lives and dies by its fans. Not by the top end. Not by the "hardcore raiders." But by the people who love the game for what it is and have fun with it that way. This means balancing things in such a way that it works for the vast majority of people, not just the top 1%.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

No matter what you choose to make of the numbers, it really shouldn't be possible imo and I feel it shows that tank damage is low. Especially when you consider that the difference is consistently small below the 99th percentile.

And it's definitely a difference in how you feel. It's not about how the content is balanced, it's about how the jobs are balanced and the work it takes to deal damage compared to the results. When I switch from healing to tanking and find that I'm working much harder to dps for barely more damage? This is something that I think matters.

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I am not getting through to you am I? You talk about balance but balance between different roles is irrelevant, you want bigger numbers simply because of bigger numbers, it would change nothing. Also in your opening post you claimed that whm consistently do more damage than tanks which is just a blatant lie as you can see.

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Originally Posted by Quor

It is never, ever a good thing to consider balance based around the top end of a game. FF14 showed, with it's history, without a shadow of a doubt, that a game lives and dies by its fans. Not by the top end. Not by the "hardcore raiders." But by the people who love the game for what it is and have fun with it that way. This means balancing things in such a way that it works for the vast majority of people, not just the top 1%.

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the 99 percent isn't even a good indication of "hardcore raiders", those are highly optimized log runs where the healer that has the "spot" doesn't even heal let me tell you that. It's not indicative of normal gameplay, no "hardcore" group has it's healers pulling more dps than tanks.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

I am not getting through to you am I? You talk about balance but balance between different roles is irrelevant, you want bigger numbers simply because of bigger numbers, it would change nothing. Also in your opening post you claimed that whm consistently do more damage than tanks which is just a blatant lie as you can see.

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The first thing you need to understand is that "getting through" to me is not your responsibility. And no it is not a lie, at the highest level of play WHM is definitely consistently capable of doing more damage than tanks. You consider it cheese but it's not simply one group. It is a consistent trend. We don't need to consider the highest level of play for all balance decisions, sure, but that shouldn't even be possible. Tank damage is low and even when we're not considering the highest level the damage is just not where it should be.

What more damage for tanks would change is the feeling of doing more for the work I put in. Get that or don't, but my opinion on it isn't changing and I understand yours. Thanks for the discussion.

The issue isn't just "big numbers" but what the big numbers mean.

Tank damage is as of right now at 60% of a DPS damage. (Or in better terms, 55% of the good DPS and 65% of the undertuned DPS)

That is the all time lowest for tanks. This game and frankly most games are based around the fundamental objective of "Defeat X to win". A tank player's contribution is a little more than half of what a DPS contributes.
This is especially more true because of many aspects of tank mechanics being passive or flat our removed. Enmity is a non-factor for every role and bosses either auto position for their mechanics or are giant locked hitboxes on one side of the map.

The issue is that with each expansion the impact of tanks has lessened and lessened due to both content design and tank design relative to the other roles. It is not difficult to press a cooldown every 60/90 seconds for tankbusters and tanks have the fewest mechanics to deal with and hardly get punished due to their natural durability. Healers are of similar DPS value but a healer's impact and ability to carry a party is infinitely higher than tanks able to erase mistakes or bring a party back up. A tank has no such ability beyond Clemency from PLD. You can't really excel.

So for the effort(or lackthereof due to simple rotations) tanks put out, they're effectively really only making half as much of a difference as a dps player. And for anyone who enjoys being useful in their team and like having agency; that does not feel good or fun.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I hate seeing convoluted damage formulas used just to curtail a specific class or role, which seems to be what happens to Tanks from 71 to 80. That said, I don't especially mind where tanks have ended up damage-wise. I think it could be a bit higher, as I didn't actually mind a highly-skilled tank outperforming a not-particularly-skilled DPS back in the day, but it's fine as is, and I suppose this is where it will have to be now that they've even further gutted the actual tanking aspects of tank gameplay as of Shadowbringers.

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Yeah it's kind of a double whammy. The role was simplified and then they also gutted the damage? It's rough. I've always loved tanking but it's sapping the enjoyment out of the role for me.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

This is another reason why i am not running parser.
I main war at the moment and seeing me at the bottom of the list feels just weird.

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Haha I was legit just telling a friend that I might have to cut parser when tanking cause it's depressing. I end up just feeling frustrated at how little I contribute to damage considering doing damage is still like 99% of a tank's job. Handling mechanics and maintaining uptime perfectly and feeling good about it then checking the numbers is... whew.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

The only percentage where whm deals more than tanks is 99% cheese percent which is something you should never be looking, under a normal gameplay that doesn't happen.

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Cheese percent? rDPS is a thing now, I can't think of any way a White Mage can cheese their rDPS to be higher to reach 99th percentile.