Reasoning for removal of TP, but not MP?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Healers are their own class of MP management. They can't just spam heals, they will run out of MP very quickly.
MP management is what their whole job philosophy is based around.

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We were talking about AoE spells which require a resource to prevent AoE-spamming, correct?
Holy is no healing spell, it does damage, and unlike TP classes hasn't got his cost removed.

Why not?

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

Cherry-picking cases in which MP is indeed either part of the rotation or a non-factor.

What's with a WHM spamming Holy?
It's an AoE spell which does damage, but spamming is prevented due to its cost + WHM needing the MP for heals.

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...unless you make use of WHM's extensive MP-management abilities to handle the drain. Between Thin Air, Assize, and Lucid, the only time WHM should run out of MP while Holy-spamming is if they're not using those abilities effectively or when the rest of your party's DPS is bad. And you also hit on the exact reason MP wasn't removed - it's a cap on heal-spamming, and particularly on rez-spamming. Playing as a healer means managing your MP and not using healing spells over and over again unnecessarily, and this applies to a lesser extent to RDM as well (re: Verraise spam).

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Originally Posted by Seraph522

...unless you make use of WHM's extensive MP-management abilities to handle the drain. Between Thin Air, Assize, and Lucid, the only time WHM should run out of MP while Holy-spamming is if they're not using those abilities effectively or when the rest of your party's DPS is bad. And you also hit on the exact reason MP wasn't removed - it's a cap on heal-spamming, and particularly on rez-spamming. Playing as a healer means managing your MP and not using healing spells over and over again unnecessarily, and this applies to a lesser extent to RDM as well (re: Verraise spam).

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You are correct of course, but why should a MP class in WHM be forced to use several CDs just to keep his AoE-spamming up, when a TP class can do the same now for free without having to do anything else?

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

We were talking about AoE spells which require a resource to prevent AoE-spamming, correct?
Holy is no healing spell, it does damage, and unlike TP classes hasn't got his cost removed.

Why not?

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Because it's not the same.
It's a healer using DPS spells. That's their whole MP management shtick.

Healers: Manages MP by balancing DPS vs healing, their role vs bonus damage.
RDM and SMN: No MP issues unless they raise, stepping outside of their role.
DRK and BLM: MP management integral to job mechanics.

Physical DPS are the only ones who were arbitrarily gimped for doing their core job role too much.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

You are correct of course, but why should a MP class in WHM be forced to use several CDs just to keep his AoE-spamming up, when a TP class can do the same now for free without having to do anything else?

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Because magical classes use spells, physical classes just swing their arms, they do not use aether.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

No, MP management has far more use beyond "stop spamming AoE"
In fact most mages have their own, sustainable AoE rotations anyway. That arbitrary barrier just doesn't exist for mages like it did for physical.

A RDM will never run out of MP unless they cast Verraise.
A BLM will never run out of MP, period, but it dictates their Ice/Fire rotation.

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With the new hard limit of 10,000 MP, there is a chance that SCH and AST go OOM if they are aggressive enough or is trying to ress everyone back. And a healer going OOM is way worse for the party.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

You are correct of course, but why should a MP class in WHM be forced to use several CDs just to keep his AoE-spamming up, when a TP class can do the same now for free without having to do anything else?

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No, this is a good point... why not remove the limiting factor on these AoEs as well with the CD being the limiter like other classes?

There is a hard cap now on mp for healing resource management. It really is inconsistent. Tanks can spam AoEs without taking away from tanking ability... healers should be able to do the same, and isolate the healing resource management to healing spells requiring mp.

Because managing MP take a bit skill : some spell need tons of mana so you have to be careful when using those or you'll be OOM (for exemple a summoner spamming ruin II), there's decision involved from the player. TP managment was stupid, it was either you're using your single target rotation and you'll never ever run out of tp, or you're using your AOE rotation and you'll run out of TP in 30 seconds no matter what you do. It also created this weird distinction where mage where better than melee for AOE for no particular reason, and it make the easiest and least interresting part of the game (killing random add) take longer.

I'm glad TP is gone because it was just frustrating, but removing MP would just be dumbing down the game.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Because it's not the same.
It's a healer using DPS spells. That's their whole MP management shtick.

Healers: Manages MP by balancing DPS vs healing, their role vs bonus damage.
RDM and SMN: No MP issues unless they raise, stepping outside of their role.
DRK and BLM: MP management integral to job mechanics.

Physical DPS are the only ones who were arbitrarily gimped for doing their core job role too much.

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Hmm: indeed, healers have to manage MP between dps and healing, but the same applied to TP classes before, namely managing TP between AoE and single-target.

You did acknowledge the duality of healer also being dps, but now you claim TP classes were gimped before due to AoE TP costs, but you don't apply that reasoning to healer wanting to AoE dps, because they're still gimped by the MP cost.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

A RDM will never run out of MP unless they cast Verraise.

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Exactly, the same with excessive use of Vercure required to keep a high-HP character (the tank) in a good shape when your healer died mid-dungeon in a below-64 trial/dungeon with no verraise ready. That will constantly give you a net loss and thus you will run out of MP. This way it's also beautifully balanced to have such beautiful abilities on a DPS profession.


TP was never a problem because the cooldown was long enough to replenish any TP cost (except spamming that one skill which I just forgot. Was it "Moulinett" or something like that..?)
So the removal also helps the HUD clutter a bit with all the bars going on (EXP, HP, Job gauges, skillbars, buffs/debuffs,...)