Disembowel: Please Fix this Mess

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

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I didn't say meta isn't popular, just that most people outside the forums don't care that much. I only meant that most groups aren't going to turn you away if you're a Bard and they don't have a Dragoon or vice versa. People on the forums make it seem like n one plays anything but meta.

If you believed the forums sometimes, those numbers would look more like this:

BRD: 100k
DRG: 100k
NIN: 100k
SMN: 8k
RDM: 4k
SAM: 3
MNK: 1k
BLM: 504
MCH: 50k

(obviously sarcasm, but really, the forums exaggerate.)

What people don't understand is that even though the meta definitely isn't needed, the opinion of top raiders trickles down to the rest of the community.
Why else do you think jobs like SAM, Monk and BLM gets locked out of parties pretty commonly? The community latches on to the meta and wants to use that, necessary to clear or not.

It's actually extremely common to see DRG having a melee slot exclusively to itself, and the other either being NIN exclusive or Nin/MNK/SAM, depending on if a Bard is there or not.

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

I didn't say meta isn't popular, just that most people outside the forums don't care that much. I only meant that most groups aren't going to turn you away if you're a Bard and they don't have a Dragoon or vice versa. People on the forums make it seem like n one plays anything but meta.

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You have that second part a bit backwards: you're going to turn groups away if you're a bard and they don't have a Dragoon, so they're going to turn away SAM and MNK because they want a BRD.

Besides that, my main point was that "most people outside the forums" also means "lots and lots and lots of people who don't raid in the first place." Most people on the forums don't raid either, but the issue becomes when people playing the top end of content come and say "Hey, Disembowel is not a very well thought out buff that locks a job in not because it can bring powerful damage additions to the group through smart play, but rather ridiculously powerful additions to the group through sheer virtue of existing", a response like "Most people off of the forums don't care about meta" is a strange response.

To elucidate further: yes, we can agree most people don't care about meta. Most people also don't play content where it matters.

I dislike Disembowel for the same reasons I dislike Trick Attack. What is supposed to encourage things like raid optimization and increases the coordination ceiling of a group ends up being horribly centralizing because of utterly powerful they are. This is also partially why jobs like Samurai and Black Mage will never be desirable in higher level play, because they will never put out the kind of DPS that could make up for having zero utility, and SE will never LET them do the kind of DPS they should be doing because support would push this DPS even higher.

This is all fine and dandy, because I don't play at the 99th percentile in some ultra elite static, so reasonably speaking these differences do not amount to much in practice, however as others have said, the meta tends to trickle down to the userbase, and THAT is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

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Fair enough. Although, I would argue that meta doesn't "matter" in any content. All jobs can clear the content in nearly any party comp (4 red mages might run into an issue, for example) but any reasonable comp is fine.

I don't necessarily disagree that Disembowel could be reworked or deleted, I just don't think it NEEDS to be. The numbers you provided show that other jobs are still having plenty of luck getting into raids, albeit at a lower rate. I think Ninja is just as skewed as Dragoon though, they just don't have the added benefit of directly assisting one of the best supports.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Just give BRD and MCH their own Disembowl and nerf their damage a bit to compensate. There's no reason their full potential should be tied to another job.

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"That would make them too strong" -Yoshida 2k12+6

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Just give BRD and MCH their own Disembowl and nerf their damage a bit to compensate. There's no reason their full potential should be tied to another job.

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That would just make piercing redundant, like all the other resistance down debuffs. How about we just remove all of them entirely instead? I'd rather them removed, personally, and I main BRD.

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

I don't necessarily disagree that Disembowel could be reworked or deleted, I just don't think it NEEDS to be. The numbers you provided show that other jobs are still having plenty of luck getting into raids, albeit at a lower rate. I think Ninja is just as skewed as Dragoon though, they just don't have the added benefit of directly assisting one of the best supports.

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People have been complaining about the physical meta since 3.4. Even nerfing Disembowel to 5% from 10% did nothing to it because Disembowel is still so skewed. Yeah, BLM and SMN are at a point where they can oust MCH, but if the meta of DRG/BRD/MCH is to ever be removed, there is only one solution: remove piercing. I'm honestly tired of having to rely on a DRG for 5% of my damage. It may not seem like much, but with my current Savage runs, it is the difference between purple and orange.

I'm not saying people should put a lot of stock in parses, but if they're like me and enjoy pushing themselves to beat last week's highest and keep the content interesting after you've already geared up... I enjoy seeing myself beat last week's numbers. I enjoy seeing the improvement. It's not that I don't see it without a DRG, but I, again, am tired of needing a DRG to reach the goals I have.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

You need to buff DRG if Disembowel is removed, not BRD/MCH.

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Bard and Machinist are the classes who lose things if Disembowel is removed, not Dragoon. If anything, the 5% provided by the buff doesn't really need to go back into the Dragoon (since the power of Disembowel is that it boosts you AND the Bard and probably a Machinist if you wanna go full meta), except maybe boosting Heavy Thrust further or something.

Seriously, look on FFLogs. I can almost guarantee you that most of the best damaging Bards and Machinists have a Dragoon providing Disembowel, and the fastest groups have a Dragoon and Bard and/or Machinist for this very reason.

I'm waiting for the response that offers a solid reason as to why Dragoon would need a buff and Machinist and Bard shouldn't if Disembowel's effect is removed.

Heck, if you're so desperate to have a buff from Disembowel, just make it a universal buff so other classes other than Machinists and Bards benefit. Just not something that encourages a monobuild.

I understand the point of MCH and BRD potential locked with another class
But these changes will only turn the "meta" to NIN,BRD,MCH and replace DRG for MNK or SMN

Unless you do speed kills often you shouldn't worry about the "meta" ,

You can clear all savage/Ultimate content with what ever class composition you'd like

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

I'm waiting for the response that offers a solid reason as to why Dragoon would need a buff and Machinist and Bard shouldn't if Disembowel's effect is removed.

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Here you go.