Dark Knight feedback

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

What else do you use your MP on when you get synced down below 45?

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The correct move for a DRK any time they get synced to a dungeon at a level lower than 56 is to just leave the instance, take the 30m timer, and give the rest of the group an opportunity to get a different tank that isn't an active detriment to the party.

Unleash, Dark Passenger, and Sole Survivor are all basically just as bad as the 4.0 version of Shake It Off, and Blood Price is only slightly better than that. And yet only one of those five skills got an update in 4.1, for ~mysterious, unexplainable reasons~.

DP is not useless, it's a DPS gain in various scenarios.
It could do with fixes but it's not useless.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

DP is not useless, it's a DPS gain in various scenarios.
It could do with fixes but it's not useless.

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It's pretty useless. It's a "DPS gain" in any situation where you can hit more than one target with it, but it's an utterly, utterly insignificant gain in almost every situation possible. If it were removed from the game entirely, you wouldn't be able to notice it was gone from looking at overall DRK damage statistics.

4.0 Shake It Off was at least good at its intended purpose. Dark Passenger needs a list of like half a dozen pre-requisite conditions before it's ever beneficial to use it, and even when you do, you basically have to pore over your combat log with a microscope to spot the difference between using it or not.

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Originally Posted by Crater

It's pretty useless. It's a "DPS gain" in any situation where you can hit more than one target with it, but it's an utterly, utterly insignificant gain in almost every situation possible. If it were removed from the game entirely, you wouldn't be able to notice it was gone from looking at overall DRK damage statistics.

4.0 Shake It Off was at least good at its intended purpose. Dark Passenger needs a list of like half a dozen pre-requisite conditions before it's ever beneficial to use it, and even when you do, you basically have to pore over your combat log with a microscope to spot the difference between using it or not.

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The enemies would have to die in less than 3 ADs, for it to be a DPS increase, AND there would have to be no more combat right after, otherwise its always a DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

The enemies would have to die in less than 3 ADs, for it to be a DPS increase, AND there would have to be no more combat right after, otherwise its always a DPS loss.

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If you are fighting three or more targets, and you're in Grit, then you are technically better off damage-wise if you spend two GCDs to do Hard Slash -> Syphon Strike, and then do a DADP, than you are if you just do Abyssal Drain for two GCDs.

In the former case, you have a net cost of 2400 MP (-4800 for DADP, +2400 from Syphon), do 240 AoE potency, and 400 single-target potency.
The latter case costs you 2640 MP (1320 MP from AD, twice) for 240 AoE potency.


However, this is exactly what I'm talking about: Who fucking cares about saving 240 MP and doing 400 single-target potency, in a big dungeon pull?

This is Dark Passenger in a nutshell: It's actually very easy to find instances where Dark Passenger is a DPS gain, but the DPS gain is always so small that you'd never notice it if you didn't sit down to actually do math or pore over your combat log with a microscope.


Imagine how much SE would have to nerf Circle of Scorn before Paladins actually had to wonder "Am I losing DPS for using that here...?" Dark Passenger should be buffed to be as clear-cut and as effective a gain of CoS.

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Originally Posted by Crater

If you are fighting three or more targets, and you're in Grit, then you are technically better off damage-wise if you spend two GCDs to do Hard Slash -> Syphon Strike, and then do a DADP, than you are if you just do Abyssal Drain for two GCDs.

In the former case, you have a net cost of 2400 MP (-4800 for DADP, +2400 from Syphon), do 240 AoE potency, and 400 single-target potency.
The latter case costs you 2640 MP (1320 MP from AD, twice) for 240 AoE potency.


However, this is exactly what I'm talking about: Who fucking cares about saving 240 MP and doing 400 single-target potency, in a big dungeon pull?

This is Dark Passenger in a nutshell: It's actually very easy to find instances where Dark Passenger is a DPS gain, but the DPS gain is always so small that you'd never notice it if you didn't sit down to actually do math or pore over your combat log with a microscope.


Imagine how much SE would have to nerf Circle of Scorn before Paladins actually had to wonder "Am I losing DPS for using that here...?" Dark Passenger should be buffed to be as clear-cut and as effective a gain of CoS.

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Technically the number of targets is really important, as with a group of just 3 mobs, it would be a DPS increase, with 0 threat moves, and with 4 mobs it would break even.
Most groups do larger, which would make it a DPS loss. (With exceptions to a few pulls which force you to go with 4 or less mobs, to which its like you said.)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Technically the number of targets is really important, as with a group of just 3 mobs, it would be a DPS increase, with 0 threat moves, and with 4 mobs it would break even.
Most groups do larger, which would make it a DPS loss. (With exceptions to a few pulls which force you to go with 4 or less mobs, to which its like you said.)

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No, what I said holds true for anywhere from 3 to infinite enemies; two GCDs of Hard Slash and Syphon Strike, and a DADP, is always technically better for damage than two Abyssal Drains. It's always going to be 240 potency of AoE damage with both options, it's always going to be a net cost of 2640 MP for two ADs versus a net cost of 2400 MP for DADP + Hard Slash + Syphon Strike, and there's always going to be 400 potency of single-target damage added on to the DADP option.

The point is that merely being a technical net gain isn't enough to justify the skill's inclusion in DRK's toolkit. The skill absolutely needs a massive buff, but if you go around incorrectly saying that it's a "loss" in situations where it is technically a gain, it's easy for people to shut down your argument.

Much like Shake It Off, the complaint should not be that using the skill actually harms you - only that its effect is so marginal, situational, and weak even when you are in a situation where you'd use it that it must be made much, much stronger.

The big thing people over look when calculating DADP damage is the fact that it is an OGCD.
You have to calculate it keeping in mind you will spend 3 GCDS at the same time (full combo).
Or as Crater does it, 2 GCDS works well too.

It's beneficial to use it in aoe scenarios in every way bar a few exceptions.
One problem is it makes the aoe rotation change for 3 gcds.
It's best out put for mana spent is on 2 enemies. (Compared with any other mana spending option).

Without grit, DADP + SE combo gets outdamaged by abyssal at roughly 9 enemies over 3 gcds.
With grit, it's limitless. If you have 9+ enemies, you will most likely cap on mp or blood without using it, especially with Delirium up.

The biggest noticeable boost is 2 enemies and as more enemies join, it's as crater says, the damage becomes less noticeable as abyssal scales up.

The skill could use an mp reduction or a damage boost.

Personally, I'd find it fair to deal 80 potency for 1200 mana.

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Originally Posted by Crater

No, what I said holds true for anywhere from 3 to infinite enemies; two GCDs of Hard Slash and Syphon Strike, and a DADP, is always technically better for damage than two Abyssal Drains.

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I actually did make a mistake, in that I accidentally calculated DP as the 3rd GCD, rather than the possibility of a 3rd GCD being added to the DPS in the DP rotation.
I'd have to either plot out the math of all the variations, or go find the original post that had all the variables plotted out, but there is a number of GCDs that need to pass, in which AD does out dmg DP, but there were a few catches to that as well, such as needing the MP immediately after, and having no time to build it back up right after. (where a normal dungeon pull can give u the time needed to build back up between pulls usually)

This illustrates a problem that has been brought up multiple times in other threads though, that Dark Knight must sacrifice their resource used for defense or sustain for extremely small damage increases. Is Dark Passenger technically a gain in some situations? Yes, absolutely, but it's by such a small margin vs. the drain effect that Dark Knight relies upon to...well, form the cornerstone of its AoE survival and enmity. It's a major sacrifice for a questionable gain. There are situations where there's such a MP overflow that it becomes usable, but even in those situations one has to weigh the gain vs. anything else going on at the time.

For example, one problem I run into that I don't actually see often brought up in these threads is the massive amount of oGCD clogging up between GCDs. Other tanks have a fairly intuitive weaving/double weaving process which allows them to fit what they need between GCDs. Dark Knight frequently requires Dark Arts at all times, with Blackest Night taking up the other double weaving spot, making fitting other abilities when the situation requires a nightmare. A remedy to this problem, which existed in Heavensward and felt more like part of the frenzied playstyle, was to hold onto Dark Arts through GCDs until needed. But with Syphon Strike eating a Dark Arts there's less time and availability to...well, queue up for your multitude of oGCDs before you start triple weaving or worse.

To bring this back on topic, even in situations where you do have the MP overflow to spare, there's often too many other abilities you're trying to mash together for a DA+DP to really flow together. Especially in the middle part of a huge pull when you can spam more Quietus but are relying on Blackest Night to float you between other cooldowns. One thing I've neglected to mention is the blind effect, which in practice I've never really noticed to be effective at all, I did a couple tests where it seemed like it was a 10% miss chance or less.

While it is a DPS gain, saying that feels a bit misleading because it isn't telling the whole story, and we actually do need other forms of straight DPS gains that aren't morton's fork choices.