National Leadership in Stormblood and Heavensward

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Garleans are afraid of Sharlayan's magical prowess.

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The thing is, though, that there is no such thing as an infallible defense. Surely the Sharlayans and the Garleans are both intelligent enough to see that. And from what we've seen, the Garleans have way more hands-on experience with conquering a variety of nations with very different cultures and defences, than the Sharlayans have with defending against a conquering aggressor.

I just find it hard to believe that a nation of scholars would put all their eggs into one basket, so to speak, and simply believe that their magicks will carry them through. The collaborator theory is just my way of rationalising their seeming overconfidence, really.

Edit: It's also worth noting that the Garleans have had double agents and collaborators in every single last nation we've visited. It's not hard to believe they've slipped more than a few into Sharlayan as well.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

The White Mage questline makes it seem like being a Padjal isn't all that great after all. It's a gilded cage, you get power and influence but only if you live your life within the very strict boundaries expected of you, with even journeying outside the Shroud being seen as inappropriate behaviour.

The ruling class seems to be more the Hearers, especially because there's so few Padjal and a lot of leeway in interpreting what the Elementals are saying. In the Leatherworker questline there's a Hearer brazenly claiming the Elementals are demanding something they aren't because it allows him to push his own agenda.

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Hrmn... I think its more that Padjal expect their traditions to have consequences when defied, but A-Towa-Cant is one of the most revered Padjal and he was one of the ones who defied tradition, leaving the Twelveswood. Likewise, Kan-E-Senna leaves the Twelveswood quite frequently. There isn't exactly any indication of a Padjal being stripped of their powers and such if they fail to live by tradition, but instead, its that brainwashed cult mentality which leaves even them too afraid to breach doctrine, even for the good of their gods.

Also, yes, non-Padjal Hearers do seem to enjoy more of the influence with less of the responsibility. I do believe they are still beholden to the Seedseer Council. I kind of think of them like Ishgard's Inquisitors. They enjoy power and privilege, but are still not -the- privileged caste like the Heavensward or Archbishop.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

The thing is, though, that there is no such thing as an infallible defense. Surely the Sharlayans and the Garleans are both intelligent enough to see that. And from what we've seen, the Garleans have way more hands-on experience with conquering a variety of nations with very different cultures and defences, than the Sharlayans have with defending against a conquering aggressor.

I just find it hard to believe that a nation of scholars would put all their eggs into one basket, so to speak, and simply believe that their magicks will carry them through. The collaborator theory is just my way of rationalising their seeming overconfidence, really.

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That's perfectly fair, but given what we've seen in game (again, the Warring Triad storyline and how the Garleans couldn't get past Urianger's barrier, which was devised by Sharlayan Archmages), and given Garlemald's lore (the Garleans were always victimized by others because they couldn't wield magic and thus couldn't defend themselves) it just seems to me that Garlemald avoids antagonizing Sharlayan, and Sharlayan, as per its own lore, chronicles history and does not participate in making it. The two nations quite literally are ignoring one another, one out of deep-seated fear, the other out of ideaology.

Let's not forget that Sharlayans are fairly arrogant. Putting all their eggs in one basket might not occur to them as what they're doing. They're always studying, researching, etc... No doubt they have weapons and defenses based in magic that they believe will keep their homeland safe. I'm still curious how things will go if Garlemald has anymore Resonant.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

I'm still curious how things will go if Garlemald has anymore Resonant.

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I find it hilarious how much of a non-factor Fordola's Resonance was. After one fight, Santa-Urianger showed up to give us yet another doodad to completely shut her down.

Granted, there seem to be different levels of Resonant, but Zenos probably got the highest level possible, given his position. If that's the case, then we can probably defeat any other Resonant we come across, since what made Zenos truly dangerous was when he jacked Shinryu for himself. Surely we won't be stupid enough to allow any other super primals to be summoned?

All that aside, it seems that the main aim of creating Resonant would be to ultimately give the Garleans the power to control primals. Which is... probably why we have never seen any Garleans with the Echo, ever.

Anyway, since the Sharlayans don't seem to have a habit of summoning primals to fight for them, the Resonant would probably be useless against them. Especially if a simple burst of aether would knock the average Resonant down for the count.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Granted, there seem to be different levels of Resonant, but Zenos probably got the highest level possible, given his position.

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This is something that's bugged me. Fordola, with her Resonance, was completely untouchable, at least until we fielded Urianger's doodad (and even then, only until she shook off the effects of said doodad). If Zenos's Resonance was superior, why were we able to hit him at all, particularly given that we were NOT using the doodad during his fight?

Perhaps he was deliberately withholding the Resonance, in order to have a more entertaining fight. Or, perhaps, the Resonance affects different people in different ways? Maybe Fordola's Resonance gave her premonition and enhanced reflexes, while Zenos's gave him a deep understanding into the nature of Primals? I suppose it will be hard to say, unless we encounter a few more individuals with Resonance to compare.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

I find it hilarious how much of a non-factor Fordola's Resonance was. After one fight, Santa-Urianger showed up to give us yet another doodad to completely shut her down.

Granted, there seem to be different levels of Resonant, but Zenos probably got the highest level possible, given his position. If that's the case, then we can probably defeat any other Resonant we come across, since what made Zenos truly dangerous was when he jacked Shinryu for himself. Surely we won't be stupid enough to allow any other super primals to be summoned?

All that aside, it seems that the main aim of creating Resonant would be to ultimately give the Garleans the power to control primals. Which is... probably why we have never seen any Garleans with the Echo, ever.

Anyway, since the Sharlayans don't seem to have a habit of summoning primals to fight for them, the Resonant would probably be useless against them. Especially if a simple burst of aether would knock the average Resonant down for the count.

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Well, my thoughts were more along the lines of the Warring Triad quests. The barrier Urianger created, that Sharlayan Archmages researched, that froze the Garleans in their tracks because they couldn't get passed it. Unukalhai brought it down within seconds because he had the Echo. Somehow, the Echo let him do that. If Sharlayan is using a similar barrier or barriers, and they hold that same weakness, then that opens them up for attack by Garlemald. I just think its a distinct possibility that one of the reasons Garlemald never targeted Sharlayan was that it couldn't, that the barriers literally made it impossible to land troops and transport magitech war machines. But if such a protection could be brought low, what is there left to stop Garlemald from conquering Sharlayan? As much as Garlemald might fear the magical nation of scholars, they have GOT to be salivating at the idea of taking all of that knowledge and information and adapting it to their magitech.

I mean, when you get to it, Garlemald feels like the Allagan Empire without the magic, but with the technology. By contrast, Sharlayan seems like it'd have the kind of magical power and knowledge that Allag had. Combine the two and the Garleans could very well advance their magitech to Allagan levels in a handful of years.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Unukalhai brought it down within seconds because he had the Echo.

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I need to go reread the dialogue from that quest when I can, but I thought the reason why Unu managed to unravel Urianger's wards was because he did so from inside them? Presumably, Urianger specifically keyed the ward to allow the Scions in, while keeping the Garleans out, probably identifying us via aetheric signature or something, so Unu simply went in and took them down instead of having to brute force it from the outside like the Garleans. In short, it didn't seem to me that the Echo had anything to do with that.

If the Garleans wanted to take down the Sharlayan protections, they probably have the means to do so already, without the Resonant: Simply bribe whoever's in charge of manning those wards, or infiltrate their guard force, like what Ysayle did to Ishgard's wards. They've done similar things countless times in the past, so there's no real need for them to change their modus operandi now.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

If Zenos's Resonance was superior, why were we able to hit him at all, particularly given that we were NOT using the doodad during his fight?

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1. I don't think he was using his Resonance at all during his fight in Ala Mhigo. 2. We fought him 4 to 1, rather than 1 to 1 with Fordola. 3. The thingamabob becomes completely useless in the hands of someone who knows what it's going to do. Makes me wonder why Urianger would tell us how it works after one fight with it.

It's not too farfetched to assume that the Resonance takes different forms in different people, since the Echo works the same (except that our Mary-Sue WoL asses have all forms of the Echo active). But I still want to cling to the idea that we weren't seeing different forms of the Resonance in Fordola and Zenos, so much as we were seeing different levels of usage.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

The thing is, though, that there is no such thing as an infallible defense. Surely the Sharlayans and the Garleans are both intelligent enough to see that. And from what we've seen, the Garleans have way more hands-on experience with conquering a variety of nations with very different cultures and defences, than the Sharlayans have with defending against a conquering aggressor.

I just find it hard to believe that a nation of scholars would put all their eggs into one basket, so to speak, and simply believe that their magicks will carry them through. The collaborator theory is just my way of rationalising their seeming overconfidence, really.

Edit: It's also worth noting that the Garleans have had double agents and collaborators in every single last nation we've visited. It's not hard to believe they've slipped more than a few into Sharlayan as well.

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Sharlayan's defenses definitely aren't infallible, especially if Aulus's research made its way back to the capital, but conquering it would be a massive investment for Garlemald and would probably be more trouble than it's worth. In accordance with the imperial mandate from Solus, their focus should still be on stamping out the beast tribes and local cultures of Othard, Hingashi, and Eorzea.

That said, Varis might prioritize Sharlayan to try and create another great leap forward in light of their efforts in Eorzea and Othard failing so horrifically. With Alisaie saying that she might plan a vacation to Sharlayan during the MSQ, it could be a launching point for the next expansion. It would also probably mean seeing the Gration in action again, which I'd really like.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

I need to go reread the dialogue from that quest when I can, but I thought the reason why Unu managed to unravel Urianger's wards was because he did so from inside them?

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https://youtu.be/JAZ-zY-VM5k?t=941

15:41 if the time did not correctly come across.

Urianger's words are that only one with an otherworldly gift could have so swiftly dissolved his ward.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

https://youtu.be/JAZ-zY-VM5k?t=941

15:41 if the time did not correctly come across.

Urianger's words are that only one with an otherworldly gift could have so swiftly dissolved his ward.

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That line, in hindsight, sounded to me like a reference to the fact that Unu comes from another world. Nonetheless, if it was his Echo, it could just be his unique manifestation of it (though 'taking down wards' sounds like a really specific and useless superpower). Or it could also have been, very simply, that Unu is a child prodigy of a mage from the Void.

I'm trying to remember if the WoL ever did this, and the only times I can recall are in dungeons, and it's not made clear if it really was the Echo that allowed us to take down those wards or if it was just us murdering everything in our path.

Anyway, like I said, the Garleans had means of nullifying Sharlayan's defences before they ever developed the Resonance, so there's no reason for them to think they would need it for this. After all, why shelve what works?