Making The DRK/PLD Comp Viable/Meta - Think They're Gonna Do It?

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Originally Posted by Steelbreeze

Calling a 60 potency price tag once every 20 seconds a monopoly for the warrior is grossly overstating it. "4 out of 12 jobs" is also misleading since 3 of those 4 are tank roles and won't be sharing a group anyways. Realistically a WAR is only applying that debuff for 1 to 2 people aside from himself. (Also considering that in the current game only tanks use slashing, and things may change in Stormblood).

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No, that is not overstating things. The Slashing debuff will always boost at least 2 characters in a standard 2/2/4 8 man comp, and a 60 potency loss is a bit disingenuous as dropping Dancing Edge from the rotation can change priorities in the rotation.

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My point is simply in the current game "viable" can describe any combination of tanks, and we don't know enough about the expansion to say for certain if that will change or not. "more" viable isn't a thing by the way, something is either viable or not.

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That is kinda wrong. Different comps can be nearer or farther from the point of viability as player skill can turn a barely viable comp into a non viable comp. Different Comps can be more or less viable depending on player ability.

If a tank switching from Pld/Drk to War makes a group more likely to clear then one comp is more viable than another.

If they were fixing PLD/DRK synergy we'd see a fourth tank job, I think.

I think they're working in that direction with 4.0, but they got to take it slow, not change too much at once.

..And I say that because I think they want to nerf WAR & SCH off-tank/heal capability more than buff others in that role.

So they got to do it subtly to avoid the nerd-rage.

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Originally Posted by Steelbreeze

You disagree with me? Or with Op?

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I am the OP you fool.

And even if I wasn't, the OP poses a question, it does not make a statement or express an opinion with which to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

If they were fixing PLD/DRK synergy we'd see a fourth tank job, I think.

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Someone correct me if I'm misremembering, but I'm certain the devs came out and said the exact opposite, something alone the lines of "fixing synergy between the existing tanks instead of adding a fourth." I don't think its a mechanical coincidence that they're adding a slashing-based DPS in 4.0 either; SAM could have such a debuff and also see the best personal DPS gains between itself/WAR/NIN for using it, which could change things up a bit.

I don't care about any of that. My problem is, I was PLD during Gordias when groups didn't want PLD. Now that PLD is rumored to be improved in 4.0, I'm concerned that I will now have to compete for a spot :(

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I don't care about any of that. My problem is, I was PLD during Gordias when groups didn't want PLD. Now that PLD is rumored to be improved in 4.0, I'm concerned that I will now have to compete for a spot :(

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PLD is getting buffed, you main PLD, and you're worried that people won't want PLD? I think you're borrowing trouble.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

The thing is, PLD and DRK are built to be MTs, WAR is built to be OT.

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This mentality holds a lot of people back. All tanks are built to be tanks and/or co-tanks to eachother. There is no MT/OT box people should be stuffing jobs into. What we have is WAR, which is built to tank and deal damage, and PLD/DRK, which are also built to tank and deal damage but lose a couple of their tools when they aren't tanking and/or do not gain other, different tools to replace them. With the drastic changes in 4.0 I fail to see why we can't hope that this will change. And to be honest, it has already started, since people are learning that raid DPS is higher when you don't simply force the WAR to never ever tank, and force the SCH to never ever heal. When you have shared co-tanking/co-healing responsibilities, they tend to collectively perform better. You get a WAR doing 1900 DPS and a DRK doing 1850, instead of a WAR doing 2000 and a DRK doing 1500. Likewise, with healers, when responsibilities are shared, both healers can do 7-800 DPS as opposed to one doing 1000 and the other doing 2-300 or even none.

I've seen static groups "seeking OT WAR" that are unwilling to revisit whether it will be a requirement come 4.0. To me this is shortsighted.

Believe it or not, WAR performs better in the MT slot as well.

The issue is that when not tanking anything, DRK gets heavily crippled in it's damage output and loses abit of utility and PLD loses a bit of damage and loses its "Physical Superiority" over the other two tanks.

It's simply a matter of these skills that require you to get hit is causing the problems with PLD+DRK comp, ontop of the Slashing Resist monopoly that WAR possess. Doubled down with the fact that PLD traded damage(something is always good) for more sturdiness/utility(something that is situationally good) is the reason why even in Physical orientated fights, DRK is still better.

How to fix this? Give PLD and/or DRK Slash resist down or remove it altogether. Take it away from WAR and all you do is further cement NIN and/or SAM in raid slots. NIN with all it's utility and the ability to buff two to three other damage dealers? It's just WAR all over again.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

How to fix this? Give PLD and/or DRK Slash resist down or remove it altogether. Take it away from WAR and all you do is further cement NIN and/or SAM in raid slots. NIN with all it's utility and the ability to buff two to three other damage dealers? It's just WAR all over again.

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Sadly, Yoshi P did say in a recent interview that the resist-downs aren't going anywhere. But yes, I agree, if WAR wasn't the only job that could maintain slashing without a personal DPS loss, it would go a long way towards making them optional in prog comps. If WAR didn't have a slashing debuff, it wouldn't really change anything for them either, since as long as another job is providing it, they can still hit their personal DPS ceiling, so I wouldn't consider it a nerf.

The debuffs don't necessarily need to be attached to a particular job, just a particular role. If slashing and piercing resist down were in the shared role actions for melee dps, you could coordinate your loadout with your teammates to fit your comp, regardless of what it was. You could even implement it by letting the player choose between a set of mutually exclusive traits that add the desired effect into the job's existing rotation. I can see MNK's blunt resist down effect being difficult to implement this way, though, as there aren't really any other jobs that use the damage type.

They could do the same with the strength and intelligence debuffs for tanks, make them mutually exclusive, and force you to plan with your co-tank which debuff you're going to take in your loadout based on the fight design.

Procs will probably be tricky with PLD/DRK, but with both tanks potentially looking to have cover equivalents, I'm hoping that these skills will end up being used to fish for procs when you're not actively tanking. Another problem that hasn't been mentioned is the inclusion of Savage Blade in PLD's primary dps combo when offtanking, which can create trouble for swaps as well as DRK's knife's edge enmity lead. But if I had to pick one issue to resolve to make the comp more workable, it would be the slashing debuff issue.

Idk, at least WAR got some love this expansion. Does no one remember early coil days of only running PLD for both tank slots?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The debuffs don't necessarily need to be attached to a particular job, just a particular role. If slashing and piercing resist down were in the shared role actions for melee dps, you could coordinate your loadout with your teammates to fit your comp, regardless of what it was. You could even implement it by letting the player choose between a set of mutually exclusive traits that add the desired effect into the job's existing rotation. I can see MNK's blunt resist down effect being difficult to implement this way, though, as there aren't really any other jobs that use the damage type.

They could do the same with the strength and intelligence debuffs for tanks, make them mutually exclusive, and force you to plan with your co-tank which debuff you're going to take in your loadout based on the fight design.

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I have been advocating for this kind change ever since they announced the disappearance of cross-class skills into role-shared skills. Give us a relatively long and extensive list of different skills for the role, and have players tinker around with what they take and how it plays up with their raid composition. It would be great for this kind of monopolized situation, like WAR with slashing debuff, the lack of mitigation for WHM, etc. Not only that, but it would also give players at least some illusion of variables and build-crafting.

Sadly I don't think we'll see any of this ever, but it's nice to ponder about how it would play out :')