Making The DRK/PLD Comp Viable/Meta - Think They're Gonna Do It?

[SyzzleSpark]

See topic.

[Steelbreeze]

Don't confuse viable with optimal. Sure. It's not optimal, but it is completely and totally viable. There is only one optimal, and there will always be a preferred composition. There is literally no way to avoid this unless they make all the classes exactly the same, which from a gameplay and design point of view would be terrible. If they make PLD/DRK optimal then there will be posts asking if they will "make DRK/WAR viable" or "PLD/WAR viable".

[SyzzleSpark]

I disagree. There will always be one "meta" god comp that the metagame believes to be optimal. Generally, right now, its DRK/WAR.

That said, PLD/WAR and WAR/WAR are still good and viable.

PLD/DRK is viable now that you have 15% echo and 20 extra ilvls. In prog it is also probably still "viable" if by "viable" you mean "within the realms of possibility" but it overworks the rest of your group to make up for the loss of utilities and dps to do so.

They've done this with the healers for instance. WHM/AST is not "meta" but no one is going to demand one of them go SCH in a farm party. Same cannot be said for tanks. The opinion of most people is to play to the meta and have people improve their play, and jobs like WAR/SCH have always been meta no matter what. Almost no one but the most casual and innocent of pugs will currently tolerate not having a WAR in the group.

[Steelbreeze]

I disagree. There will always be one "meta" god comp that the metagame believes to be optimal. Generally, right now, its DRK/WAR.

That said, PLD/WAR and WAR/WAR are still good and viable.

PLD/DRK is viable now that you have 15% echo and 20 extra ilvls. In prog it is also probably still "viable" if by "viable" you mean "within the realms of possibility" but it overworks the rest of your group to make up for the loss of utilities and dps to do so.

You disagree with me? Or with Op? because you agreed with and restated nearly every part of my post. By the way it's not "the metagame believes to be optimal", it's what is well and truly optimal. These conclusions are not arrived at randomly, people put in time playing and parsing and calculating to find out these things.
Also that's exactly what viable means: "Capable of working".

[SyzzleSpark]

You disagree with me? Or with Op?

I am the OP you fool.

And even if I wasn't, the OP poses a question, it does not make a statement or express an opinion with which to disagree.

If they were fixing PLD/DRK synergy we'd see a fourth tank job, I think.

Someone correct me if I'm misremembering, but I'm certain the devs came out and said the exact opposite, something alone the lines of "fixing synergy between the existing tanks instead of adding a fourth." I don't think its a mechanical coincidence that they're adding a slashing-based DPS in 4.0 either; SAM could have such a debuff and also see the best personal DPS gains between itself/WAR/NIN for using it, which could change things up a bit.

[Makeda]

and jobs like WAR/SCH have always been meta no matter what. Almost no one but the most casual and innocent of pugs will currently tolerate not having a WAR in the group.

Not in 2.0

For all of 2013, WAR was considered non-meta. Go back and look at very old posts - people who leveled WAR were complaining up a storm, threatening to unsub, bad-mouthing the devs, and so on... There were angry debates over whether it was even "possible" to tank the raid on a WAR, if a group could even get a clear if either tank was WAR. The people who claimed to have done it, were being called liars...

That persisted for some time (I left the game right before housing came out, and it was still the 'meta' was WAR was not considered viable in content above the mid 40s, despite many people on them claiming to have cleared raid content)...
I came back right as Heavensward launched, but only stayed for about a month, and then came back again this past March...

Don't use 'always' if you joined in 2016...

I'm missing the period in between... so I also wouldn't dare use the words 'always'... but I was there at the start, and the idea of what classes were viable was once very different than it is now.

4.0 could radically flip all of this all over again. I'm working to ensure I at least have all 3 tank classes to 60 for the Stormblood launch so I don't have to suffer through any 'design flaws'...

[SpookyGhost]

Not in 2.0

And then it was fixed in 2.1. From then 'til AST got buffed WAR/SCH has been mandatory. WAR is still mandatory, but WHM/AST is viable now.

Anyway, Lyth basically covered everything. The only thing I'd add is that Storm's Path is OP and often overlooked. Even with changing Storm's Eye and WAR's DPS, Path is still extremely strong in progression and can be seen as mandatory at low enough gear levels.

I'll also say that DRK/PLD isn't that bad, you shouldn't use it for early progression but it's otherwise not too much of a detriment. Yeah, WAR/X would be better, but if the DRK and PLD were competent then I wouldn't mind being in their group.

[Launched]

The only thing I'd add is that Storm's Path is OP and often overlooked. Even with changing Storm's Eye and WAR's DPS, Path is still extremely strong in progression and can be seen as mandatory at low enough gear levels.

And what about DRK with Reprisal and Delirum? The majority of raidwide damage is magical so DRK easily has the most group mitigation, and on top of that they took MNK's only utility skill. That's a far bigger balance problem than Path in my opinion. I don't know how people can consider Path to be mandatory and then completely ignore DRK's skills.

[SpookyGhost]

And what about DRK with Reprisal and Delirum?

Delirium is only strong because MNK is currently weaker than NIN/DRG, if they buff MNK in SB (which they will) then it just becomes moot. It's certainly a balance problem and one that needs addressed, but I don't think it's as overlooked as SP. People just kinda sideline SP since it's not strong for personal DPS and when content is already on farm, but it's incredibly strong during progression. Reprisal I will agree is in a similar spot, though I think Reprisal is a bit more sketch during progression due to not knowing the mechanics yet and when DD should be used to proc Reprisal (or just in general when Reprisal should be used).

However, that said, I think they need to take a hard look at all the damage reduction stuff tanks can apply to bosses as it's a bit of a mess right now especially PLD's which ideally never gets used.

[SyzzleSpark]

Vengeance damage aside, what benefit does the MT role grant WAR that warrants WAR wanting to be in that position over DRK and PLD? Better yet, what benefit does MT role grant WAR over another OT WAR?

WAR has the highest aggro generation relative to their optimal DPS rotation. If a WAR tanks the boss even only for a small portion of the fight, they can use Unchained and get a Defiance/Unchained/Zerk boosted BB in and still fit 3 cleaves into that same zerk window (that requires burning Vengeance and RI though). When the PLD or DRK swaps off the WAR, they inherit all of that aggro and thus don't need to use Halone or Power Slash which are large tank DPS losses. Also Zerk boosted Vengeance procs are nothing to sneeze at.

snip

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/8147282/ this is my main. Its b& because I told some whiney guy off that wanted this game to be like other MMOs and wouldn't shut up about it a long time ago.

Anyway, respectfully, I know how things were in 2.0. I also remember that thanks in no small part to players like Xeno WAR was not nearly as bad as people made it out to be for the better part of the 2.x series. WAR didn't suddenly become good in 3.0.

The MT/OT meta is toxic because it is inflexible and precludes the use of strategies that often turn out to be DPS, tanking, and healing efficient. It also limits us on an individual basis. The way things work in other MMOs is all fine and good, but in THIS game, a co-tank/co-tank mentality is more conducive to success than a main-tank/off-tank mentality. There's a tank that pulls, a tank that grabs the first set of adds, a tank that grabs the second set of adds, a tank that takes the 1st, 4th, and 6th busters, a tank that takes all the ones in between, etc. A particular tank may be better suited to a particular mechanic, like adds (i.e. DRKs like to tank a lot of little adds where they'd prefer their co-tank to tank the one big add) Shared tanking responsibilities not only makes both tank's mitigation tools more readily available, but it also tends to increase combined tank DPS and the same holds true for healers if they have the same mentality.

Very few fights in this game, at least currently, are not movement heavy for both tanks, and adds spawn at varying points and sometimes simultaneously, thus both tanks "tank the adds."

Its also a very poor decision to have 1 tank hold the boss for the entire fight, especially if the fight doesn't have many adds or the adds to not spawn while the boss is on the field. Relying on that tank's cooldowns alone causes them undue stress regardless of player skill; they'd take less damage if their co-tank wasn't just functioning as a gimped DPS that occasionally grabs adds and handles the same party mechanics the DPS do. Because that "main tank" has to have flawless cooldown usage (which can be derailed by variations in raid-DPS causing mechanics to happen sooner or later) it also gimps their DPS, again, unduly.

Many fights have "taunt swap" mechanics but yet a lot of skilled groups elect to insert their own un-forced tank swaps at predetermined points because it maximize tank and healer DPS, healing efficiency, and mitigation, instead of having one "main-tank" responsible for tanking 90% of the fight and dealing subpar DPS/requiring more healing because of it, and the other "off-tank" dealing good DPS (for a tank) but having left half their toolkit completely unused (and thus of no benefit to their group).

I haven't played many MMOs outside of XIV, but in my opinion, XIV's way sounds much more intelligent. It may be that other MMOs have their own strategic mechanics that require a different skillset and mentality and force you into that MT/OT mindset, but that simply isn't how it works (optimally) in this game.