A samurai idea : going backwards

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Now that I think of it, it's a gameplay very close to the Assassin from Diablo 2 with charge skills and finishing moves.

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Could that have been the reason for the Ronin class > Assassin / Samurai job ideas in the past.

Joking, but yes, there are similarities, apart from your Samurai here not necessarily having any general stack or charge system that would carry over between different pre-finisher choices (if I recall correctly... maybe that was only WoW's rogue, and then half of all rogue builds since).

That said, I wonder why there aren't more ready examples, as it's still a incredibly general design philosophy to center class gameplay on, and effectively differing from true rotations only in flexibility and greater control of dynamics/output peaks and troughs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That said, I wonder why there aren't more ready examples, as it's still a incredibly general design philosophy to center class gameplay on, and effectively differing from true rotations only in flexibility and greater control of dynamics/output peaks and troughs.

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I'd say that they probably want players to be able to discover "easily" the optimal use of skills, and linearity is a fine way to achieve that. Problem is, this is exactly what hinders creativity between players.

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Originally Posted by Venur

IMO with samuraï it could be the right time to implent unic resource. Samuraï could use skill that generate "chi" then spend it. Could also be something like energy on WoW rogue and SWtOR sorcerer. You start fight with 100 energy, some skill use TP some other use energy and the bar fill up itself at a fixed rate.

But sadly I don\\'t remember any samuraï class in the FF franchise (I haven\\'t played them all too). Anyone may point me one ?

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Final Fantasy Tactics had a Samurai class. They were a damage/support class with buff and debuffed abilities, I believe. I wouldn't mind having a Samurai like that-- a melee support damage class. They'd have to have some unique buffs and debuffs to not step on the toes of other classes, though.

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Originally Posted by Venur

I
But sadly I don't remember any samuraï class in the FF franchise (I haven't played them all too). Anyone may point me one ?

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V, Tatics, 10-2, FF 12, Bravely default 1 and 2. Technically 6 as well as Cyan has access to "Bushido".

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

. I wouldn't mind having a Samurai like that-- a melee support damage class. They'd have to have some unique buffs and debuffs to not step on the toes of other classes, though.

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Not me. I,m already disapointed that ninja are the worst melee DPS cuz they are a utility class.

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Originally Posted by Venur

Not me. I,m already disapointed that ninja are the worst melee DPS cuz they are a utility class.

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May I ask what your definition of a true DPS class is, then? Situationally, Bards and Machinists are top dps within a give phase. They also happen to be support classes...
Dragoon does solid dps, but does much of that through raid contribution by buffing said support classes and through enhancing raid burst.
Monk is about our only personal-only dps contribution, but therefore struggles to contribute as much as a Dragoon or Ninja unless there is significant magic raid damage that a 10% reduction to could provide a new level of safety or free up healer GCDs.

At the end of the day, Ninja is the only top-line contributor to raid DPS that isn't in some way dependent on composition, enhanced by and enhancing tank DPS, even. Some could easily argue that makes it the best melee.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

May I ask what your definition of a true DPS class is,

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DPS class deal the damage while support class enhence the damage dealth. For balance sake most MMO will give lower DPS to class bringing buff/debuff since they enhance the raid total damage dealt.

Like you said the monk class just seems to be the only true damage dealing melee class and then everyone else is a tier 2 DPS with buffs. When I heard ninja I didn,t suspected it was a support class at first.

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Originally Posted by Venur

DPS class deal the damage while support class enhance the damage dealt. For balance sake most MMO will give lower DPS to class bringing buff/debuff since they enhance the raid total damage dealt.

Like you said the monk class just seems to be the only true damage dealing melee class and then everyone else is a tier 2 DPS with buffs. When I heard ninja I didn,t suspected it was a support class at first.

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I get that. My only point is that even a Monk depends on a couple support features (Dragon Kick and Mantra) to be a good compositional choice, unless its gear, and therefore its slight dps lead, extends well beyond everyone else's. Ninja is the only dps who needs only to deal damage and rotate its bonus features, with only a faint consideration for composition (Trick Attack timings and Dancing Edge use) and locked out by no particular party makeup. Personally, that's more like what I'd like to see for Samurai. Because so far, that's really only NIN and WAR, each to their respective roles. A true DPS class tends to be more plain, will still be limited in burst to make up for its sustain, and will often have a harder time reaching optimal raid contribution (which will, still, be through support as well).

You see, I don't mind giving up some damage as long as it means I'm boosting others and it's noticeable, especially when I'm bringing unique abilities others don't have. When MCH first came out, I was a bit bummed that our utility skills really felt limited for a support class. Most of them are of use only in progression groups and are lacking for other content. I just came back after 1/2 a year so I'm trying to figure what's changed, though.

So I can see why some prefer their dps classes to be pure dps. It's much easier to qualify a pure dps with hard numbers. You can look at a parser and see that they topped the DPS chart. It's much harder to do that with a support DPS where you not only have to look at their numbers, but also any extra damage they bring to their team mates and any support they bring to tanks and healers. And with a community that's all about numbers, it can be frustrating as a support class, believe me. I remember Bahamut Ex all too well and the MCH hate.

Personally, I think SE needs to learn a bit about what makes good support outside of being an MP battery, but that could just be me.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A true DPS class tends to be more plain, will still be limited in burst to make up for its sustain, and will often have a harder time reaching optimal raid contribution.

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This is a numerical balance problem. A good MMO will balance its game around having a mix of pure DPS and DPS/Utility beeing the optimal set-up. If your best raid/group composition skip pure DPS class and just stack support one, you have a problem.

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So I can see why some prefer their dps classes to be pure dps. It's much easier to qualify a pure dps with hard numbers.

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I've played support class in MMO for about 10 years then I moved to the tank role for a little over 5 years. For various reasons I'm in the mood to play something else. I don't really care about toping the DPS parse but I'm just tired to help other poeple toping it.

I just find it weird that monks are left beeing the only one without a real utility so they must be entitled the best DPS.