A question for the people who want faster exp.

Too many people want immediate satisfaction.

Just don't take time to really experience the game because "grinding is boring".
You know how we fixed that in XI? We talked to each other. We built relationships in our linkshels and random parties. We enjoyed each others company and took advantage of the online aspect of the game. The game was too hard to beat by yourself, so you where forced to play together and work towards those long term goals as a community.

I may not have played it for very long, and it was a long time ago, but the best memories I have from it are just talking with my party members at the dunes between fights. Talking about the challenges ahead, the difficulties of getting to Jeuno, what subjobs where most effective, what new lands there where to explore. It was all just a great community experience for me and I don't think it would have been possible if I could just level to 50 in half a month.

But whatever, I'm ranting about the old days I barely experienced. Point is, I like the struggles that bring us together.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

You're point is weak because you have an "all or nothing" attitude.

The point people like myself are trying to make is that some leveling process is needed to teach the basics of how a class functions. But beyond that, there isn't much else leveling can teach. So dragging it out is sort of beating a dead horse. Advanced tactics come from advanced content.

XIV is doing things properly, but people just refuse to look at the bigger picture.

As of 1.19, XIV has, potentially, one of the most brutal grinds a person could ever choose to face. Materia.

And that's the great thing about XIV that folks are refusing to see. It's easy to get to 50 and have some fun with friends. But the person who wants and arduous grind and the end result to show for it can do so by leveling the crafts and gathering classes to handle materia, then grinding out hundreds of thousands of experience points in order to get the best materia, then repeat the process over and over until all their HQ gear is fitted with top-notch tier IV materia.

"Easy to start, difficult to master."

Allow me to say it with emphasis:

[SIZE="6"]"Easy to start, difficult to master."[/SIZE]

It's the unspoken motto of XIV that people need to get through their head. Sure we can be powerleveled to cap if that's what a player wants to do after they spend hard-earned dough to buy the game. The easy entry of XIV allows players to choose how they want to play.

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Did you miss where I said "I get not wanting an arduously long and grueling grind, but to argue for a nearly non-existent one? That simply doesn't make sense within this genre, in my eyes."

That's my point. For a lot of fans of the RPG "the grind" is an important form of content. It's not even about teaching the basics of a class, it's a bout building your character. The excitement of gaining new abilities, the progression to more intimidating enemies, working your way through different landscapes. That's not just teaching the basics of a class, it's a part of RPG gameplay that has existed since the beginning of the genre.

And your argument about materia is flimsy. The increase in exp increases the speed it's produced as well since Spiritbond is exp based. Plus, you can buy it.

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I just don't get why it bothers people if a casual group wants to level to cap quick and go off and do things at their own pace. No one is stepping on anyone else's toes. There's still a mountain to climb that casual players likely never will touch. The min-maxing elitists can have the best gear and thus better characters while casuals get to just relax and play around. Everyone should be happy.

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It bothers me personally, and I think others, for 2 specific reasons.

1) When you have the option to just jump to the level cap with little to no work, the people who would prefer an RPG style of gameplay are going to be relegated to using the quicker option out of necessity because too many other people are are choosing that option and there aren't enough people to support the traditional RPG style of gameplay, or because of peer pressure from people they'd like to play with. If the option for easy is there, very few people choose hard.

2) The morphing of RPGs and MMOs ever closer to hack-and-slash is contributing to the death of the RPG genre, as has been talked about above your post.

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Originally Posted by Blarp

Character progression in RPG's is a staple, but when that progression isn't immersive, rewarding, or engaging it's a problem. FFXIV is missing all three of those. If you sat down to play a single player RPG, and the game manual told you to progress that you must participate in redundant and uninspired tasks for a month, would you still play? I wouldn't. The RPG is missing from most MMO's including this one, and unfortunately the MMO part seems to be synonymous with time sinks to slow players down.

Leveling should be emergent. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to level in an RPG unless that's the way you enjoy playing the game.

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o for the love of god please don't start throwing around the term emergent lol. Immersion threads have met the same wall of opposition as this, none of us have advocated a non emergent system or a non rewarding system for that matter.

And the "If you sat down to play a single player RPG, and the game manual told you to progress that you must participate in redundant and uninspired tasks for a month, would you still play? I wouldn't." look into Disgaea you wont like it, but thats pretty much what it is lol, and for the nich market its in it is very popular.

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Originally Posted by Blarp

Character progression in RPG's is a staple, but when that progression isn't immersive, rewarding, or engaging it's a problem. FFXIV is missing all three of those. If you sat down to play a single player RPG, and the game manual told you to progress that you must participate in redundant and uninspired tasks for a month, would you still play? I wouldn't. The RPG is missing from most MMO's including this one, and unfortunately the MMO part seems to be synonymous with time sinks to slow players down.

Leveling should be emergent. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to level in an RPG unless that's the way you enjoy playing the game.

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Aha! Here we have a valid and relevant point. This is what people should be arguing with regards to this game, and any RPG. Because it is a staple of the genre, make it better and fun, don't remove it.

Also, people claiming that the grind is not content have it wrong. It most certainly can be, and often is in RPGs. Mid-game raids, clearing dungeons, doing quests. All these are things that can grant exp and supplement "the grind" but are not, for lack of a better word, "grindy."

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Originally Posted by Bled

o for the love of god please don't start throwing around the term emergent lol. Immersion threads have met the same wall of opposition as this, none of us have advocated a non emergent system or a non rewarding system for that matter.

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He's not talking about immersion in the ethereal sense, which is what I think generally elicits that negative gut reaction you're talking about. He's talking about making it an activity you want to engage in or don't glaringly recognize you're engaging in, which is a valid point. I don't think most want a system where you do the same thing over and over.

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Originally Posted by Bled

o for the love of god please don't start throwing around the term emergent lol. Immersion threads have met the same wall of opposition as this, none of us have advocated a non emergent system or a non rewarding system for that matter.

And the "If you sat down to play a single player RPG, and the game manual told you to progress that you must participate in redundant and uninspired tasks for a month, would you still play? I wouldn't." look into Disgaea you wont like it, but thats pretty much what it is lol, and for the nich market its in it is very popular.

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What's wrong with emergent?

Freedom of choice should be something players advocate for. If there are players who enjoy grinding on mobs for months, then they should have that option, but too often people seem to think that there's only room for one way of progression in an MMO. Niche MMO's and games are great, but more and more these so called "AAA MMOs" are looking to appeal to wider audiences. If SE wants to bring in more players, then there should be options. If I want to grind, I can do that. If I want to solo my way to level cap in a reasonable amount of time, I should have that option. It would be a shame to alienate the segment of players who want a variety of ways to progress.

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Originally Posted by Travesty

He's not talking about immersion in the ethereal sense, which is what I think generally elicits that negative gut reaction you're talking about. He's talking about making it an activity you want to engage in or don't glaringly recognize you're engaging in.

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"Character progression in RPG's is a staple, but when that progression isn't immersive" hes using it right there in its purest form, which is what the people flamed about. About two months ago when i brought making leveling more immersive up on a thread i had a large quantity of people coming in and rambling "immersion dosent exist", "immersion is subjective thus has no place in the game", and so on.

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Originally Posted by Blarp

What's wrong with emergent?

Freedom of choice should be something players advocate for. If there are players who enjoy grinding on mobs for months, then they should have that option, but too often people seem to think that there's only room for one way of progression in an MMO. Niche MMO's and games are great, but more and more these so called "AAA MMOs" are looking to appeal to wider audiences. If SE wants to bring in more players, then there should be options. If I want to grind, I can do that. If I want to solo my way to level cap in a reasonable amount of time, I should have that option. It would be a shame to alienate the segment of players who want a variety of ways to progress.

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Well, the problem with that is, when the easier path exists, it's the one that becomes the default. Like I said earlier, if easy exists, very few people choose hard. It's the developer's job to make it so that kind of problem doesn't occur, and within this genre, removing one of the classic staples is not the way to do it.

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Originally Posted by Bled

"Character progression in RPG's is a staple, but when that progression isn't immersive" hes using it right there in its purest form, which is what the people flamed about. About two months ago when i brought making leveling more immersive up on a thread i had a large quantity of people coming in and rambling "immersion dosent exist", "immersion is subjective thus has no place in the game", and so on.

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Why are you picking one word out of an entire post to argue? I'll edit out immersive and emergent if that will help you argue against the main point of the post.

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Originally Posted by Blarp

What's wrong with emergent?

Freedom of choice should be something players advocate for. If there are players who enjoy grinding on mobs for months, then they should have that option, but too often people seem to think that there's only room for one way of progression in an MMO. Niche MMO's and games are great, but more and more these so called "AAA MMOs" are looking to appeal to wider audiences. If SE wants to bring in more players, then there should be options. If I want to grind, I can do that. If I want to solo my way to level cap in a reasonable amount of time, I should have that option. It would be a shame to alienate the segment of players who want a variety of ways to progress.

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your missing my point there is nothing wrong with immersion never stated there was, i was just informing you of the opposing people who flame the topic.

Leveling needs to be immersive but cutting out the time required is just plain silly. A RPG needs character progression and the progression should take time, yes it should be fun but it should also take time invested into the game. Is the A typical grind in the MMO's currently boring? hell yeah but guess what cutting grinding out of a game is an even more ignorant approach to the solution. Next gen MMO's need to created deeper, varied, and more "immersive" grinds, not cut them out entirely like the OP stated.