What's the point of being elite at your job?

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Originally Posted by Outfoxed

Any clown can spend an hour studying a book to know when Nael Deus Darnus decides to blink. I hardly get how that makes them elite.


Skill requirement != time requirement.

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Ok I repeat myself : PVE require 0 skill other than being able to dodge a big red circle that pop under your feet. It's all about knowledge and reaction to a situation you memorized because it's the only way to not give the ground a big kiss.

LoL is PVP, skill and a little of strategy (or just playing the op champ of the patch). FFXIV PVE is... PVE, yes. It's knowledge and positionning. If you want skill, go PVP.

Have you ever played WoW PVE btw ? It's exactly the same. Tell me one MMORPG that separate elite from beginers IN PVE BY THEIR SKILL.

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Originally Posted by Outfoxed

Square doesn't let elite players really separate themselves from the pack. I was a diamond player in League of Legends because of my mechanical skill. My decision making was pretty mediocre, but then again, when you're mechanically better than most people you meet, almost every decision is technically a good one. If there's one thing I'm good at it's playing things at a mechanical level better than most people....

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Honestly this logic can be applied to any and all games. The reason you are good at LoL is not coz of some natural talent. It is something you learnt by putting in the time and effort to learn how to play. However anyone who spent the same amount of time as you learning to play LoL would be approximately at the same skill level. The simple fact of the matter is being good at any game purely comes down to time invested, not talent.

Therefore those who invest their time into an MMO like FFXIV will naturally become an "elite" player, however there is nothing special at all about this moniker. SE realize this and have opted to create a game that everyone can enjoy, not just a mere few who can afford to waste their hours learning such "elite" mechanics. They want it accessible to many players (including casuals) which is perfectly fine.

You are also underestimating the challenge Coil posed before ilevel's got way ahead of the level 50 cap.

It's important to note that you're comparing your skill in a PvP game to your skill in a PvE game. Since you can't know exactly how each LoL match will go, mechanical skill is more important, as is reacting to other players' strategies.

In PvE raids, the boss doesn't change it's strategy, so the only way to get better is to learn/memorize the fight. Also, if you get a fight to a high level of memorization you can learn how to squeeze out every last drop of damage because you know when all the mechanics happen, distinguishing yourself or your group.

Finally, this game is more about groups distinguishing themselves in new content. If you want to be an elitist, try doing the world first race where no one knows mechanics and you can't be some "clown" who reads a guide.

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

I disagree with this sentiment. DPS meters are great. It shows who needs help with their rotation so a group actually can tell why they didn't meet a DPS check.

Personally I like to compete with others and it improves my DPS if I can see how I'm doing compared to others. Plus an official DPS meter would cut down the complaining about a certain class not parsing properly and looking like a terrible class to play.

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Depends on whether SE wants to create such a game. Where player that are cooperating end up competing anyway - bring along with it rivalries and all the baggage. Where the forums overflow with QQ because Job A's DPS is a tiny bit lower than Job B's DPS on a very specific fight.

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Originally Posted by Outfoxed

"Perfect knowledge of boss and enemies patterns for PVE"

Any clown can spend an hour studying a book to know when Nael Deus Darnus decides to blink. I hardly get how that makes them elite.


Skill requirement != time requirement.

Knowing what a boss is going to do at every single second isn't skillful, it's just plain memorization. It's like doing a math test. You can a) memorize all the answers or b) actually know what you're doing. If you're dodging a bosses move before he actually uses his skill then I question the design of your game. That's like breaking into a safe when someone tells you the combination. You don't need to be an expert safecracker, you just have to have minimal brain functions.

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Many would argue that the key to being skillful at MOBA is mostly knowing what others can do and how to react to it. IE: its a time requirement of how fast you can memorize things.

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Originally Posted by Tila

Many would argue that the key to being skillful at MOBA is mostly knowing what others can do and how to react to it. IE: its a time requirement of how fast you can memorize things.

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There's the time requirement there. But your skill matters a lot. It's not exactly a hard concept to last hit minions for example. But a good player will double a silver players CS any day of the week. There really isn't much of a knowledge requirement for CS aside from the fact that towers do ~45% of a melee minions health and maybe 75% of a ranged minions health. Not exactly a huge knowledge requirement to know what your opponents QWE are, hell you can google it before the match and know what they're going to throw at you. But the best players come out of that trade with a couple autoattacks more or get more minion damage out of their fight. A diamond player in a mirror matchup (basically adjusting for champion knowledge) against a silver will win 90% of the time.

A good player presented with the same knowledge as a bad player results in two different things. The bronze player will know what skills his opponent has but the diamond player will know what skills his opponents has AND how he will deal with it, how he will deal with any potential issues. The diamond player just reacts to the knowledge better than the bronze player because he knows how to apply it. So a bronze player might know that Tristanas E at level 1 did 110 base damage at level 1. But the diamond player is the one who will actively try to trade with that 110 base damage E because he knows he has an advantage and he pushes to abuse it.

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Originally Posted by Outfoxed

There's the time requirement there. But your skill matters a lot. It's not exactly a hard concept to last hit minions for example. But a good player will double a silver players CS any day of the week. There really isn't much of a knowledge requirement for CS aside from the fact that towers do ~45% of a melee minions health and maybe 75% of a ranged minions health. Not exactly a huge knowledge requirement to know what your opponents QWE are, hell you can google it before the match and know what they're going to throw at you. But the best players come out of that trade with a couple autoattacks more or get more minion damage out of their fight. A diamond player in a mirror matchup (basically adjusting for champion knowledge) against a silver will win 90% of the time.

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My point is that the biggest divider between players is knowing how to properly react to other players: their items, their skills, how those skills synergize with others. Yes, there are even more little minor things above that that seperate elite from super elite, but you have that in FFXIV too. Hell, the monk thread is currently discussing the validity of using fracture and the exact moments you should use it. Its all about memorization and knowledge of fights. MOBAs are a good deal about memorizing and having knowledge of heroes and items.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

DPS meters were one of the worse things to have entered the MMO genre. Over time it became less about "Are we beating the boss?" and more about "Am I beating other raid members in the DPS meters?".

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There is nothing wrong with DPS meters.

The problem is people like the OP, because of people like this SE believe we as a community are not mature enough for an Official DPS meter. After reading this thread, I guess they do have a point.

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

I disagree with this sentiment. DPS meters are great. It shows who needs help with their rotation so a group actually can tell why they didn't meet a DPS check.

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I mean with even 3rd party parsers the issue we are seeing is the elitist kicking players out because they don't have high enough ilvl to their standard and won't do the damage or think they won't do they damage they want them to do or kicking out jobs entirely for certain fights. Even if it's the case a certain job does poorly in a certain fight you can't make judgement on every player just because of the job/character they play in a game. And not many people are actually being HELPFUL in that manner "oh we think you might be doin something wrong whats your rotation?" since you can't just say we are parsing (against ToS and all).


Also back on topic I mean I don't see why anyone SHOULD be rewarded other than knowledge they have certain fights down pat and can farm it while many others struggle to even figure it out. Reading/watching something only does so much it's experience that makes the difference and some people will never change out of their ways. Just my point of view.

Your reward is the self-satisfaction of not sucking like those 1-2-3 plebeians.