Let Players Speed Run Again

Never played 1.0's Darkhold so I wasn't aware of that. I like that idea, but timed treasures is neither a new or dealbreaking thing. I personally do love Coil, but I enjoy regular dungeons too. I don't consider them time wasted unless stuck with a bad party, which just happens sometimes.

As for the new dungeons, SE did go the easy route and made things "harder" through higher HP, but think about how much gear and weapons have progressed. Imagine AK without level sync with the gear we have now? We'd shred right through it. As it stands, it's simply a matter of perspective. It's not a challenge to you (by comparison to say, Coil), therefore it's a waste of time. I disagree. The new dungeons suggested item levels are 80 (which is higher than Turn 4, and given how T4 is farmed lately, it shows). I simply see the gap closing. Some might not be ready, and some - like youself - may already be well past it. But with all this nice new gear, if everything was still tuned for i55 with no level sync, THAT might get boring.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

You can't damage everything effectively when the tank can't pull everything because of a mechanic like Snowcloaks ice wall area. The wall breaks only after defeating the last. It's a pointless mechanic only there to slow you down, it's not needed.

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If your DPS is unable to manage single target damage effectively, I'd call that a bigger problem. Not saying that's the case here, but just putting it in perspective. Also, with regards to the Snowcloak ice wall area, as an interesting inversion of it, it could be said the 1 minute phases of Turn 4 are a "waste" of time. I mean, if the party is good enough, then why not just send them all after you all at once? Same goes for primals and add phases. Going by that logic, those mechanics are a waste of time too.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

If your DPS is unable to manage single target damage effectively, I'd call that a bigger problem. Not saying that's the case here, but just putting it in perspective. Also, with regards to the Snowcloak ice wall area, as an interesting inversion of it, it could be said the 1 minute phases of Turn 4 are a "waste" of time. I mean, if the party is good enough, then why not just send them all after you all at once? Same goes for primals and add phases. Going by that logic, those mechanics are a waste of time too.

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Yes, they are all waste of time. The difference is all about fun though. My fun is different from your version of fun.

Me having to stop is not fun. Garuda summoning the feather adds doesn't not stop my dps on Garuda though. I flare and burn them all and still do damage to Garuda. But the mechanic of a door staying shut until 2 monster are killed just kill more right after is a waste of time because I can't attack them all at once.

All I can say is that, although still a chore to be farmed in order to cap out asap, dungeons have gotten a lot more enjoyable. Compare any of the new dungeon with the original halatali for example, they pretty much copy pasted the same trash pull over and over again. Yes that'd let you rush through everything and pull all of them mobs on your way but in the end I actually prefer the variety that snowcloak's giving me. I can still speed run whichever mob there is until the next blockade but at least they'll show me something new right after that instead of yet another trash pull of the exact same dungeon mobs. I believe newer dungeons feel shorter, still take a decent amount of time but without having you fall asleep as you run it and I think that was what the devs were aiming at.

I am all for everyone plays this game at their own pace etc, but in a mmorpg where majority of the players are using a random tool that brings 4/8/24 random players toghter, this is not possible. Every mmorpg that I have played which offered the option to speed run has always resulted in a stupid debate where players try to enforce each others will on to each other. There is no 'lets play toghter" Its all about "ME,ME,ME,ME, I want to finish this dungeon within 15 minutes so we will finish it within 15 minutes". Just like ThirdChild_ZKI, I too prefer to enjoy the dungeon at a decent pace, I am not going to crawl to the final boss, but I dont want to rush either.

If there is a option to speed run, then members of this community will force it upon each other. Often have I seen high ilevel players rushing the dungeon not knowing that their dps/healer/tank does not have the same ilevel and often they can not handle the content at that pace.

Yesterday I was doing Snowcloak, both dps were not doing alot of damage, but aslong as we were doing 1 pack at the time, we were able to finish the dungeon within 30 minutes. Sadly my tank did not agree with this so, he pulled alot of trash packs at the same time. You can guess what happend next. The mobs did not die fast enough, so the tank started verbaly abusing the dps players, I got out of mana (first time this has happend since Vigil Keep storymode) and we wiped. I am not saying this will always happen, but in all the speed runs that I have witnessed its about someone wanting to rush asap and not about exploring a dungeon with new friends.

This is nothing personal, but the GOGOGOGOGOGO mentality was one of the reasons that I hated World of Warcraft. The fact that alot of players are oke with this playstyle, makes me worry for this community.

Like ThirdChild_ZKI said in his/her previous post, why should Square Enix bother with designing dungeons? Why not just add dungeons with one big white corridor with mobs lined up? I bet you, Square Enix does not mind taking your money for those type of dungeons. This way its going to be a WIN/WIN for Square Enix and the speed runners?

People against speed running are like Macy's employees. Working as little as possible as long as they get paid in the end.

This is all just about not capping your tomes in an hour anymore... I don't care how much you go on about "choice" and "fun". This is what Hunts and Speedflox runs have caused. 15 mins is a pretty good time. Under 5 min Brays was just stupid and wound up being heavily exclusionary. The Quick Completion bonus a la DD 1.0 for Bray HM certainly would not require a sub 5 min run. With the target Ilevel I'd estimate a quick clear bonus would only require a 10-15 min run. Now events a la Assault from XI that encourage speed would be cool.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

This is all just about not capping your tomes in an hour anymore... I don't care how much you go on about "choice" and "fun". This is what Hunts and Speedflox runs have caused. 15 mins is a pretty good time. Under 5 min Brays was just stupid and wound up being heavily exclusionary. The Quick Completion bonus a la DD 1.0 for Bray HM certainly would not require a sub 5 min run. With the target Ilevel I'd estimate a quick clear bonus would only require a 10-15 min run. Now events a la Assault from XI that encourage speed would be cool.

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Put you hand in a fire for 10 seconds feel like an eternity.

Have fun with your friends hours feels like minutes.

These new dungeons are boring to me, so that 15-20 minutes feels like forever.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

It's time for new tactics. It's time to BE tanks, not damage sponges while your party cleans up the mess you make.

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This, quite honestly. I'm not gonna lie, 90% of the time when running through dungeons, I want a speed run. However, as someone who mains WHM, the constant weight of needing to keep up with tanks that pull half the dungeon and then tap their foot expectantly while they take 2k damage to the face a second is obnoxious. I'm always able to keep up, but then they move to do it again and I have no MP by the second go. SoS and vials don't help, either.

I don't think that whenever SE develops a dungeon their first objective in mind is, "How can we make them run this as quickly as possible?" and in fact, speed runs are a the problem in of itself.If dungeons weren't so easy, they wouldn't be so "boring" to complete. If they weren't so boring to complete, then people wouldn't feel the desire to speed run, they'd want to enjoy their time spent in the dungeon (especially if you're waiting hours on end in queue). If they did this, speed runs wouldn't exist. Essentially, speed runs are more of a solution to a problem that they cause themselves. People go, "Oh god, why is running this so boring?" when all they're doing is forcing themselves through the content as quickly as possible. So they speedrun it and make it even MORE boring for themselves.

It's a vicious cycle, but the only way to break it is to make dungeons either slower, more interesting to complete, or just generally give better rewards for more full completion.

Truly, and let me be both serious and sarcastic all at once, since SE is so fond of transient "alternatives" (that's pure Zodiac Saga/Tome Weapon salt right there), why not implement Expert Guildhests?

To avoid the hunt rewards imbalance/catastrophe:
-Offer gil, GC seals, and tome rewards, but NOT as much as a full dungeon run. Otherwise the scales would tip.
-Aside from first time runs, do not give a bonus or daily bonus. (The amount given should be substantial enough as is, again without outshining dungeons) The trade off is the speed and ability to repeat quickly, a la speedrunning.
-Be challenging, but without level syncs or materia restrictions.
-Perhaps shake up the party system? Minimum of 3, max of six?

Full dungeons remain viable for rewards/gear/items/tomes, and the speedrunning types get something to enjoy as well. Everyone wins, no?