Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That wasn't how it played out at all.

Some of the same people initially pushing for child-like viera simply switched to pushing for feminine, androgynous and short viera instead. That more than anything is why there's a measure of suspicion surrounding those pushing for such aesthetics. To say nothing of the fact that it doesn't even fit with how Yoshi-P and Matsuno envision male viera to begin with.

Now, that isn't to say that everybody asking for feminine and androgynous male viera is in the same basket. Though the damage has already been done and the simple fact that Yoshi-P had to state outright that child-like viera will not be added to the game is incredibly troubling.

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I think the term you're looking for is "Dog-whistling", people using events/conversations as an excuse to slip in their own views and signal to other people that share them through coded language. and to be fair, the same thing has happened on the other side of the coin, as people have used the exclusion of male viera as an excuse to spew some rather homophobic beliefs.

Honestly, I for one am in the camp that would adore to have more feminine viera, but this can easily be achieved by the team just putting in the obligatory "young/feminine" facial option in one of the 4 they give upon character creation; every race has one, so I know for a fact they'd get one as well. So I don't know why people are infighting when it comes to the body type/look of male viera, because they won't have one single look. All square needs to do is give us the faces, and give the muscle slider to every race dammit. I will never understand why only hyur have it.

Ironically enough, a JP friend of mine was here when male miqo's were released and commented that various JP players found the catboys too masculine, and felt they did it to appeal to westerners.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That wasn't how it played out at all.

Some of the same people initially pushing for child-like viera simply switched to pushing for feminine, androgynous and short viera instead. That more than anything is why there's a measure of suspicion surrounding those pushing for such aesthetics. To say nothing of the fact that it doesn't even fit with how Yoshi-P and Matsuno envision male viera to begin with.

Now, that isn't to say that everybody asking for feminine and androgynous male viera is in the same basket. Though the damage has already been done and the simple fact that Yoshi-P had to state outright that child-like viera will not be added to the game is incredibly troubling.

As for the whole 'ERP' argument. I'm in favour of people acting with dignity. If they do it, they shouldn't wear it as a badge of honour. I've seen some horrid stuff on Balmung and the unfortunate truth is that a growing number of role-players become obsessed with it to the point where it dictates all of their interactions.

The idea that everybody who wants male viera desires them for ERP purposes, however, is silly. Some of us just dig the whole 'fierce forest hunter' aesthetic and they're a close match to that.

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No you shouldn't associate wanting a child-like Viera with wanting a short/feminine viera. I for one stood my ground, and never changed my opinion.
I never said I wanted child-like male Viera and switched to wanting just short male Viera. But you judge someone for being so. I tell you, that's exactly what is happening now.
People are correlating liking ERP with just wanting male Viera. I don't give a donkey's arse about Balmung. People there do it with any race.

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Originally Posted by Mochamonarch

I will never understand why only hyur have it.

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I believe Yoshi said that they have the limit for features that they can use. So every race has some unique one, but only one. Let's say... muscles, tails, ears, etc.

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Ironically enough, a JP friend of mine was here when male miqo's were released and commented that various JP players found the catboys too masculine, and felt they did it to appeal to westerners.

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To be fair, Miqo'te aren't feminine. But they aren't too masculine, though, they are just athletic.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

To be fair, Miqo'te aren't feminine. But they aren't too masculine, though, they are just athletic.

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Yeah they are. Now. Remember, that was because of the supposed "Western influence" JP players feel played a part in the catboys we know now.

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Originally Posted by Mochamonarch

Yeah they are. Now. Remember, that was because of the supposed "Western influence" JP players feel played a part in the catboys we know now.

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I'm confused. Even the NPC male Mi'qote are masculine. I don't recall coming across a feminine one, even the one that is in a relationship with a male Highlander. Do they come across differently in the JP version of the game?

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Originally Posted by Halivel

I believe Yoshi said that they have the limit for features that they can use. So every race has some unique one, but only one. Let's say... muscles, tails, ears, etc.


To be fair, Miqo'te aren't feminine. But they aren't too masculine, though, they are just athletic.

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I never understood what makes male miqote femenine. Theyre masculine short anime boys

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

I'm confused. Even the NPC male Mi'qote are masculine. I don't recall coming across a feminine one, even the one that is in a relationship with a male Highlander. Do they come across differently in the JP version of the game?

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No no, I mean when male miqo'te first dropped way back when, that's what some JP players had to say about them. they found them too masculine.

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Originally Posted by Mochamonarch

No no, I mean when male miqo'te first dropped way back when, that's what some JP players had to say about them. they found them too masculine.

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Ah, I see. I understand now.

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Originally Posted by zeylos

I never understood what makes male miqote femenine. Theyre masculine short anime boys

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I don't understood either. They aren't even short tbh. They are under European average height, yes, but very far from being anything what you would call actually "short".

But I suppose it's the matter of perspective.

Personally,I think that having femenine men, masculine women, femenine women and masculine men should be a game staple, and I'd liek female hrotgar to be masculine. As for male viera, I wouldnt midn them more femenine, but I'd prefer masculine since we already have elezen

also, I just realized that the female viera emote, in my personal opinion and view of the race (not saying it should be like this, just my view) are like, a rich person. I higly higly higly doubt a huntress would act so snobish. Makes me think for males it would be the same, super snobby-ish, graceful and elegant

Lalafell exist as the token 'small race'.

Miqo'te are also fairly short - and although this is a Japanese game it is no secret that Square Enix put a lot of focus on appealing to Western demographics. In this game's case, the bulk of subscriptions happen to come from Europe and America.

There also comes a point where it ends up being dubious for the sliders to go beyond what is already available. A song and dance that has played out many times throughout this thread, of course, but ultimately we end up coming back to the same question.

Just where should the development team draw the line? You can only push boundaries so much before it becomes inappropriate in the eyes of many. You can already make a very short, feminine/androgynous looking male character. Most of those pushing for such aesthetics already do as much.

So where is the line drawn? Because if you push any further then it really does just end up making a character resemble a child even if that isn't the intention.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Lalafell exist as the token 'small race'.

Miqo'te are also fairly short - and although this is a Japanese game it is no secret that Square Enix put a lot of focus on appealing to Western demographics. In this game's case, the bulk of subscriptions happen to come from Europe and America.

There also comes a point where it ends up being dubious for the sliders to go beyond what is already available. A song and dance that has played out many times throughout this thread, of course, but ultimately we end up coming back to the same question.

Just where should the development team draw the line? You can only push boundaries so much before it becomes inappropriate in the eyes of many. You can already make a very short, feminine/androgynous looking male character. Most of those pushing for such aesthetics already do as much.

So where is the line drawn? Because if you push any further then it really does just end up making a character resemble a child even if that isn't the intention.

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I think that its extremely easy to make a super femenine male character that dosent look like a child at all if they wanted. I think its clear male viera will have 1 androgynous face, 1 handsome face and 1 ripped one, with the 4th one liekly being the creepy/'ugly'/funny face, so I dont even see whats the problem with it. as for height, theyll likely be shorter than the females, considering rabbit males are shorter, but dont expect much difference

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Lalafell exist as the token 'small race'.

Miqo'te are also fairly short - and although this is a Japanese game it is no secret that Square Enix put a lot of focus on appealing to Western demographics. In this game's case, the bulk of subscriptions happen to come from Europe and America.

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Again with this...Obviously excepting Lalafell.
Female Au Ra are not Lalafell nor are they Miqote. They are the in-between.
And try not to sound entitled like YoshiP is not trying to appeal to JP players more than EU and America.

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Originally Posted by zeylos

I think that its extremely easy to make a super femenine male character that dosent look like a child at all if they wanted. I think its clear male viera will have 1 androgynous face, 1 handsome face and 1 ripped one, with the 4th one liekly being the creepy/'ugly'/funny face, so I dont even see whats the problem with it. as for height, theyll likely be shorter than the females, considering rabbit males are shorter, but dont expect much difference

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There are only a few specific breeds of rabbit that have males that are smaller than their female counterparts and I don't see why that is relevant since the race only takes very light inspiration from rabbits to begin with - literally just in terms of their ears and noses. They've already been described by Yoshi-P as being 'tall', regardless. Matsuno's commissioned artwork also had them presented that way.

Hopefully they'll be of equal height to the women or a little taller.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There are only a few specific breeds of rabbit that have males that are smaller than their female counterparts and I don't see why that is relevant since the race only takes very light inspiration from rabbits to begin with - literally just in terms of their ears and noses. They've already been described by Yoshi-P as being 'tall', regardless. Matsuno's commissioned artwork also had them presented that way.

Hopefully they'll be of equal height to the women or a little taller.

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Theyll obviously be equal height, but dont be surprised if theyre a bit shorter. Expect little sexual dysphormism overall going by matsuno's like on that picture

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Originally Posted by zeylos

Theyll obviously be equal height, but dont be surprised if theyre a bit shorter. Expect little sexual dysphormism overall going by matsuno's like on that picture

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There's nothing to suggest that they'll be shorter, though.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's nothing to suggest that they'll be shorter, though.

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Im just going by guess ofc, and there's nothing that suggests theyll be taller either. Just dont be surprised if theyre 5-6 CM shorter or the exact same height

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Originally Posted by zeylos

Im just going by guess ofc, and there's nothing that suggests theyll be taller either. Just dont be surprised if theyre 5-6 CM shorter or the exact same height

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I'm not seeing the logic. I could easily say don't be surprised if they're 5-6 CM taller.

They will probs be similar heights like elezen and roe

This PC culture and gender politics is getting way out of hand.

Again, we need to ask how far is too far? Where is the line drawn?

You can already make very feminine and androgynous looking characters. Pushing the boundaries further would lead to characters resembling children.

I can't help but think that those desperate to make a character look exactly like they do are overly invested and need to take a step back and consider that maybe it isn't reasonable to expect the development team to cater to each and every possible niche out there.

I think if viera men are added then they should be tall, well-built and classically handsome. Since they're likely to use elezen as a base they could take inspiration from Urianger's model - he's quite beefy, particularly in the arms. With adjusted proportions and animations I think it'd look quite good. Especially with a muscle tone slider.

I think if viera men are added then they should be around the same height as the females, slim, elegant, and have facial features similar to the females (rabbit-like facial structure). Since they're likely to use an elezen base, I hope they could take inspiration from Omega m's model - he's quite slim, particularly in the arms and torso. With adjusted proportions and animations I think it'd look quite good.

We already have feminine men in FFXIV. We don't need to double on it. Want feminine men? Play Elezen
https://i.imgur.com/Nd3kfgV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Xp4wCzu.jpg

I could never imagine someone living their entire life in a jungle looking feminine. Some of us would like male Viera to make sense based on where they live, their LIFESTYLE, their counterpart (female Viera), and what has been presented before (official art sketches).

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Let people just have their views on this.

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That extends both ways. I find it fascinating that certain posters only weigh in to criticise one side of the debate. Now, I wonder why that could be...? Might they have vested interests? I can only speculate, of course.

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Originally Posted by zeylos

Hmmm personally I've seen the females to be more masculine than what lore says of men. Viera men lack leadership from what I've heard, yet the females dont lack any. I think no viera is femenine if we generalize, and as for viis, a bit more of both. Actually, the viera are a super amsculine race going by that, when I always though they were femenine. To me, femenine means gracefullnes etc, and masculine means brutal etc, but going by this description, most viera are masculine mentally speaking

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I think you're dealing with abstracts now to the point that this is becoming foggy. The way Gwenorai laid out the personality traits is pretty helpful (although you can add more to these, such as traits like neuroticism, agreeableness and so on.) Both males and females exhibit these traits, but due to biological/evolutionary reasons, men express the traits to differing degrees to women (i.e. they fall along different bell curve distributions), who by and large were more preoccupied with child-bearing and -rearing historically, something which has tempered the evolution of their personality traits. Viera women are no exception to this, and their co-dependent social structure in order to protect their villages and rear their young is a facet of this. Because Viera choose to organise as hunter-gatherers, and because the males take it upon themselves to defend the Wood, the females have to be prepared to defend their villages as a last resort and also to assist with the hunting. This does not negate their more feminine characteristics, but it's probably why Gwenorai says they would appear androgynous in this facet. Certainly to modern eyes. Another thing to add is that it can also come down to differing expression of similar traits, and differing application of them (e.g. men are biologically inclined to show an interest in things/concepts, whereas for women this tendency is more in the area of people.)

Now compare to the males, who are solitary hunters. That is by far the most extreme type of masculine personality inclination you can get. The fact that they don't act as leaders in this regard is irrelevant, because they're not involved in the management of their villages at all.

Thus I don't consider the application of the term to the females to be particularly enlightening here.

You can associate certain physical traits with masculinity and femininity, however gracefulness is not one of those. They have more to do with anatomy and ratios indicative of fertility or virility. The same applies to facial beauty, but I think the term "beautiful" is a pretty gender-neutral term, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

We already have feminine men in FFXIV. We don't need to double on it. Want feminine men? Play Elezen
https://i.imgur.com/Nd3kfgV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Xp4wCzu.jpg

I could never imagine someone living their entire life in a jungle looking feminine. Some of us would like male Viera to make sense based on where they live, their LIFESTYLE, their counterpart (female Viera), and what has been presented before (official art sketches).

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I in turn can't imagine someone living their life dressed in black lingerie armor that has their whole booty hanging out and expecting it to actually protect them from threats, but that's just how it is on this bitch of an earth.

Even if bunny boys were nothing but drag queens, they'd be just fine.

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Originally Posted by Roda

This is my (compromise) preference for a design, body, and height base. (non-compromise would be far more difference between the two at the same setting)

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This looks great and I would love to see something like this. Of course, with better looking proportions for the male viera.

Ideally for me, I'd like for them to be as tall as or taller than the females.

I cannot believe for over 20 pages now people are still arguing over the whole fem-boy rabbit thing. Nothing even indicates that male Viera will be femboys. We're pretty certain they're not gonna be Hroth/Roe bodies either.

You guys don't even know if you're even ever gonna GET male rabbits yet but here you are tearing each others throats out. Just remember: You build yourself up too much for your own fantasy and when it comes crashing down, don't come running to the forums to call the devs names or say you were lied to. What you get is what you get and I can almost promise you that the devs are not looking at you guys in here acting like rabid dogs over how they should look and going, "You know what, so-so has a point." They probably aren't even looking in this thread at -all-.

I'd consider the body type of players behind the screen to be equally as irrelevant when it comes to the subject of male viera. I want them to be reflections of how they're described in the lore rather than reflections of the physiques of some players who are desperate to turn them into their slim and short counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd consider the body type of players behind the screen to be equally as irrelevant when it comes to the subject of male viera.

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Seriously. Because I bet most who say one thing truly look like my beloved Dulia-Chai in reality.

Edit:

Senn, I kindly ask that you stop making it sound like I'm the one bringing up the LGBT discussion among the Viera thread because I am not. Quote and ask your other fellow supporters who are, in fact, making it about that, if you would so like them to stop. Thank you. c: I personally don't care who people love or what people look like. That is not my debate for the boy buns.

Thought I'd share some fanart I made. It's not perfect but I had fun making it :o

https://imgur.com/xaeFBte

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Ideally for me, I'd like for them to be as tall as or taller than the females.

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Male rabbits are smaller than female rabbits, and I would personally like to see the female viera as the taller ones of the two, change up our usual human dimorphism that's trademark of all our races. Female lizards are also usually larger than male lizards, so Au Ra female should've actually been larger than the Au Ra male, but alas: SE (and other people) just love our "kawaii waifus" with their big-man counterparts. (Just for the record, the rest of my comment isn't aimed at you, Lau. It's just my opinion on male viera, and viera in general.)

Forget "sexuality" (because that keeps coming up in this topic, even though it's kind of irrelevant). Gender stereotypes is more prevalent. It's exactly why (or supposedly) we don't have male viera atm: because "male rabbits are 'weird.'" -Stares at the wild rabbits hopping about in my yard- Yes. Very weird.

As aforementioned, small female / large male is just a human standard of beauty for both sexes. I'm already pretty unhappy about the gender stereotypes present with the female viera NPCs: pale, timid or weak (like that viera healer in a certain quest), et cetera. Thank goodness for Lyna because she's certainly not weak. As a whole, I've been finding the white-washing to uphold western and Asian beauty standards for women to be pretty offensive, actually.

Anyway, I'd love to see viera males exactly like the one in Lau's sig (will repost at the end of message): strong, broad, masculine, stoic/austere (depending on the face), just shorter than their female counterparts. Height doesn't emasculate a man. Or at least, it shouldn't. It's a male beauty steretype, but at the same time so is our female viera... and I think it suits WoL given all the adventures. (Sorry, lalas)


https://i.imgur.com/2M6w7cE.png

How exactly is it a gender stereotype when the vii have multiple different viera with completely different personalities. Some are fighters some aren't, like real life. Christ almighty. Everyone has to be offended.

I'm not interested in dimorphism for the sake of dimorphism. I'm even less interested in male viera being hijacked by those who want to take a stand against gender stereotypes. I'm generally not a fan of real world issues being projected onto the game in general, though - especially when it boasts players from all over the world and from many different cultures; some of which aren't all that invested in 'outrage culture' to begin with.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

How exactly is it a gender stereotype when the vii have multiple different viera with completely different personalities. Some are fighters some aren't, like real life. Christ almighty. Everyone has to be offended.

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It's a stereotype based on female beauty standards in at least two realms of the globe: Asian and Western continents. And yes, it is offensive when vii/viera are supposed to be darker-skinned, very strong and independent female warriors. We only had one "dark" skinned female NPC in pretty much the entire SHB storyline, and she wasn't even as dark as the viera in XII where Vii/Viera were inspired from (based on SE comments). Not only that, but they gave female viera the OK because scantily clad women with bunny ears (ahem, playboy bunny and such) but heaven forbid if men can be scantily clad with bunny ears.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm not interested in dimorphism for the sake of dimorphism. I'm even less interested in male viera being hijacked by those who want to take a stand against gender stereotypes. I'm generally not a fan of real world issues being projected onto the game in general, though - especially when it boasts players from all over the world and from many different cultures; some of which aren't all that invested in 'outrage culture' to begin with.

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It's not so much about taking a stand against gender stereotypes, it's more about diversity. If we want to see more than just "hyur with animal features," then certain things like dimorphism should be shaken up to make a race more unique. And, unfortunately for you, Theo, RL issues are definitely in the game - and that's excluding the gender stereotypes I mentioned above. They have homosexuality present in the game (not just marriages for PCs, but gay NPCs as well). They have a theory that parallels some of our current issues (not social) as presented in SHB but I won't digress because spoilers. They have social caste issues between the poor and the 1%. You'd have to be pretty blind to not see that FF covers various topics that are relevant to every day life. All of their games reflect some issue that's happening in the real world. Just look at FF9 - great example.

Did someone really use the term "white-washing" to describe a race of paler-to-begin with FANTASY RACE? I think some people need to take a step back from all media for a while. Go pop a squat in the woods, become one with nature again.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm not interested in dimorphism for the sake of dimorphism. I'm even less interested in male viera being hijacked by those who want to take a stand against gender stereotypes. I'm generally not a fan of real world issues being projected onto the game in general, though - especially when it boasts players from all over the world and from many different cultures; some of which aren't all that invested in 'outrage culture' to begin with.

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How about variety because people want it? We already have multiple buff/ripped/elegant male body types.