SE stop doing the "norm"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

It is a tool to use for a time and a place. I have no problem with various markers on the minimap. I have a bigger problem with many of them all over my screen as some sort of tacky arrow. I am not certain with names of them being in the screen, especially If it is for something I am supposed to be searching for, having the words "treasure coffer" or "excavation point" give away the location of a chest or a point that was knowingly positioned behind a feature (such as a altar) is simply one aspect of game design interfering with another.

---

And if it's optional, like I said in my first post from which you derived this whole argument?

Wait, my deja vu senses are tingling. I had this same conversation the other day. Are you the same a*****e who wasn't satisfied with challenging himself by turning off optional helpers and felt the need to dictate gaming preferences for everyone else too?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Do not have that decision in the hands of the player, and it would. *Otherwise everyone and their mother will demand it to be on,players as a whole tend to demand the path of least resistance from each other.

---

*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

So we reached the conclusion of your argument.

You don't care about your experience, you care about everyone elses' and want to have it be patently worse off for the people who disagree with your vision.

---

Yes, you are.

I really need to put you on ignore before I get an aneurysm.

yes Lvl grinding was Fun. Exp. Party WAS the perfect place to
A) Learn how to play your character
B) Met new players and make new friends

Now its more like a skill spam fest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

And if it's optional, like I said in my first post from which you derived this whole argument?

---

My point is that the developers must make the decision on their end, not the players, as they are the ones developing the quests. I would rather their options be kept open, as in have different pointers for a spot or a area to search in instead of the exact spot each and every time. so that the quests that require it are more an adventure and less like being guided with a GPS intruding on my windshield.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mikoto_qc

yes Lvl grinding was Fun. Exp. Party WAS the perfect place to
A) Learn how to play your character
B) Met new players and make new friends

Now its more like a skill spam fest.

---

This is what we call an opinion. Let me argue both of those points.

A. You did learn how to play your characters, but in many instances, you played differently in an XP party than you would in other instances.

B. The number of friends you'd make from XP parties was negligible at best. Most of the time you'd be telling your LS how bad someone in your group was.

If they're half as serious about instanced dungeons as they said they were, the "not enough party play" argument will become invalid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

My point is that the developers must make the decision on their end, not the players, as they are the ones developing the quests. I would rather their options be kept open, as in have different pointers for a spot or a area to search in instead of the exact spot each and every time. so that the quests that require it are more an adventure and less like being guided with a GPS intruding on my windshield.

---

Holy ****, finding a ??? or the enemies you are suppose to kill for a exp quest isn't suppose to be a challenge. Its mindless grinding that is quest leveling people want it done quick and as fast as possible.

The challenge in the game is the end game raids, not exp quests.

There is XI in 2.0. While the UI has the a typical bar system for the PC version, the controller interface will b e implemented as well.

Some of the UI is still different. Some aspects of newer mmo's (newer then wow) will be there. Players will be happy.

While questing is easir the XI and you won't need ffxiclopedia to do anything, It isn't as straight forward as you may think.

I agree, it needs to feel like Final Fantasy. Have the story, cutscenes and feel of XI, but needs more streamlining. Wow didn't orginate everything itself and adapted from others. If WOW gamers want a wow clone, then they will be disappointed. FF fans won't as much.

THe OP is right, we do not need a wow clone. Wow is outdated, and simplistic for the casual average person. XI needs to be challenging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TomCarroll

This is what we call an opinion. Let me argue both of those points.

A. You did learn how to play your characters, but in many instances, you played differently in an XP party than you would in other instances.

B. The number of friends you'd make from XP parties was negligible at best. Most of the time you'd be telling your LS how bad someone in your group was.

If they're half as serious about instanced dungeons as they said they were, the "not enough party play" argument will become invalid.

---

It's all rose tinted nostalgia or completely anecdotal. SMN's role was radically different between exp parties and end game, as was RDM and BRD. BLM didn't even level in parties or traditional ones, but was heavily used in end-game. PLD subbed WAR in parties, but subbed WHM or NIN for harder NMs. Same for NIN/WAR and NIN/DRK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TomCarroll

This is what we call an opinion. Let me argue both of those points.

A. You did learn how to play your characters, but in many instances, you played differently in an XP party than you would in other instances.

B. The number of friends you'd make from XP parties was negligible at best. Most of the time you'd be telling your LS how bad someone in your group was.

If they're half as serious about instanced dungeons as they said they were, the "not enough party play" argument will become invalid.

---

Counter:
A. Exp parties are a great way to learn how to play your character, testing out nd getting used to ur new skills nd such, especially since the chance of a wipe is usually lower and ur usually there for a while.

B. The people who you form LS with are usually people you first meet in exp parties, nd then grow relationships with, as far as i and most of the people in know are concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kazaran

THe OP is right, we do not need a wow clone.

---

Modern UI and leveling via quests does not a WOW clone make.

Quote:

---

Wow is outdated, and simplistic for the casual average person.

---

Patently false. Have you played it at all since 2005?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

Holy ****, finding a ??? or the enemies you are suppose to kill for a exp quest isn't suppose to be a challenge. Its mindless grinding that is quest leveling people want it done quick and as fast as possible.

The challenge in the game is the end game raids, not exp quests.

---

And this is why features of quest and level design should not be up to the players. You want it now, with no effort, because you want it over with. That is not conducive to the business goals, its not what keeps the subscriptions going for years, an important objective for subscription based games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

It's all rose tinted nostalgia or completely anecdotal. SMN's role was radically different between exp parties and end game, as was RDM and BRD. BLM didn't even level in parties or traditional ones, but was heavily used in end-game. PLD subbed WAR in parties, but subbed WHM or NIN for harder NMs. Same for NIN/WAR and NIN/DRK.

---

Whooa what? You can't argue that you generally didn't learn your role via exp parties in XI. Obviously you adapt the skills you learn to fit the situation.. Even with SMN, you may have learned how to maximize DPS while keeping buffs, or effectively fish for your pt (holding active mobs while supporting pt), or just something as simple as practicing SCs+MBs. All would be used in endgame.

Heck, RDM and BRD's party roles were practically the exact same as endgame. RDM, (generally) refresh | buff/debuff | heal in both situations and BRD (generally) refresh | buff/debuff | kite/fish in both situations. There was a time ( a long period of time...) that BLM did level in traditional parties (the good ole days of timing AM1 with a SC) and BLM later continued to level in parties, just primarily manaburn. It's still an exp party though.. so I'm not sure what your point there was. And BLM certainly learned their role in both styles, especially manaburn as BLM were often grouped into BLM teams for endgame (the exact same setup as a manaburn, often with timed nukes that SHOULD'VE been learned mastered back in those manaburn parties..).

Ohh.. almost forgot.. /PreAbyssea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mikoto_qc

yes Lvl grinding was Fun. Exp. Party WAS the perfect place to
A) Learn how to play your character
B) Met new players and make new friends

Now its more like a skill spam fest.

---

man back in the day it was so much fun in ffXI, and i agree with you is was really cool how you lv up, because u made new friends and to play with alot of different type of people make it more realistic to an adventure :D hope 2.0 hope has something like that

I can argue that you didn't learn your class because there were certain job/subjob combos that didn't even exist in exp party, and some roles that completely switched.

Yes, a RDM COULD do all of that in an exp party, but generally they stuck to refresh, healing, and haste. In end-game, they had DRK sub or NIN sub. SMN completely changed roles. Not all classes did this, yes, but generally the most critical ones did.

That doesn't even say anything about proper positioning like stopping flails, or knowing how to kite as a tank, or proper timing for stuns, or managing multiple tanks, and everything else.

At the end of the day, doing an exp party didn't force you to learn what end-game is like at all. People fought the easiest, most mind-numbing mobs because it was faster and safer leveling. Partying DID teach you not to be a douche to other players though, so I'll give it that.

EDIT: And yes, you could play at a high level in exp parties, and plenty of people did. But these people already had a different class in end-game and knew what was expected of them and how to do their research. But I'm sure you've all ran into those parties that slogged through at 4k/hr at level 55+ when you knew you could be getting 7k+. Those 4k/hr parties were made and led by people who didn't know how to play their classes and what classes do what roles, and they didn't need to because they were still getting exp and they could still reach max level by going 4k/hr the entire time through.

what I find funny about this thread is SE or Square back in the day, Made what you call "the norm" so to tell SE not to be the "norm" would tell them that they should not be them self >.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Forgo

what I find funny about this thread is SE or Square back in the day, Made what you call "the norm" so to tell SE not to be the "norm" would tell them that they should not be them self >.>

---

yeah but when ffxi was made i read that it started off horrible. people only solo'd, they also say that the blinking gear swapping was a mistake. it seems like everything they did was an accident from mistake after mistake and trying to fix it, that it turned out to be a great game by the time it landed in NA.

kinda like what happen with ffxiv except one difference ...they not really fixing mistakes. they rewrote the whole dang book, and it belongs in the children section now rather then in the isle i like reading. if they fixed the broken engine and then kept going with 16man grinds and big nm's in the world, and really tough and in depth crafting that needed many crafts. well then they may have again stumbled onto creation of something people would fall in love with again. instead they created what everyone has been running around trying to avoid for the past 10years since they abysea raped ffxi.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strallaalaa

yeah but when ffxi was made i read that it started off horrible. people only solo'd, they also say that the blinking gear swapping was a mistake. it seems like everything they did was an accident from mistake after mistake and trying to fix it, that it turned out to be a great game by the time it landed in NA.

kinda like what happen with ffxiv except one difference ...they not really fixing mistakes. they rewrote the whole dang book, and it belongs in the children section now rather then in the isle i like reading. if they fixed the broken engine and then kept going with 16man grinds and big nm's in the world, and really tough and in depth crafting that needed many crafts. well then they may have again stumbled onto creation of something people would fall in love with again. instead they created what everyone has been running around trying to avoid for the past 10years since they abysea raped ffxi.

---

so true my friend, FFXI has its flaws still and FFXIV had its short comings too...but mmo's today where build on that. But I think FFXVI will change the "norm" and make people love it

Honestly guys, the "norm" that FFXIV is adhering to is some modern concepts that have become staples to make the game easier to get into and customize, but not necessarily easier to master.

It's already set itself far apart from WOW and "the clones" because it doesn't have two warring factions, you can level all your classes on one character, you're going to have true player housing, crafting and gathering are actual classes and will potentially get their own end-game, etc.

That doesn't even say anything about the story and visuals, which I'm pretty sure you'd have to be crazy to say they're not good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exn

Whooa what? You can't argue that you generally didn't learn your role via exp parties in XI. Obviously you adapt the skills you learn to fit the situation.. Even with SMN, you may have learned how to maximize DPS while keeping buffs, or effectively fish for your pt (holding active mobs while supporting pt), or just something as simple as practicing SCs+MBs. All would be used in endgame.

Heck, RDM and BRD's party roles were practically the exact same as endgame. RDM, (generally) refresh | buff/debuff | heal in both situations and BRD (generally) refresh | buff/debuff | kite/fish in both situations. There was a time ( a long period of time...) that BLM did level in traditional parties (the good ole days of timing AM1 with a SC) and BLM later continued to level in parties, just primarily manaburn. It's still an exp party though.. so I'm not sure what your point there was. And BLM certainly learned their role in both styles, especially manaburn as BLM were often grouped into BLM teams for endgame (the exact same setup as a manaburn, often with timed nukes that SHOULD'VE been learned mastered back in those manaburn parties..).

Ohh.. almost forgot.. /PreAbyssea

---

People keep using this argument for XI but that is because a lot of endgame fights used similar strats to what you did in a pt. If your boss fights are truly great it wont teach you a lot of things end game has to offer.

No matter how much grinding you do in this game it could not get you prepared for garuda or teach you how to play your job to react to so many different situations.

FYI the only hard classes to play in XI FYI in a pt setting was Tank healer/other mages. Soon healing got easy to cause of so much refresh stacking. DD was super brainless.