Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

Plenary Indulgence is looking to be a horrible level 70 ability it should have some raid utility built into it as well like +DMG or +CRT depending on how many stacks you have on the target

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I'm sorry but you can't make all the healers the same.
You just can't, it would end up to not having a choice anymore.

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You can put different spins on it, but that's why we have the current raid meta of WAR+DRK, SCH+AST, NIN DRG MCH BRD. All of these jobs increase the others' DPS in some way (except DRK, more about MTing while maintaining high DPS). SCH had the original haste effect in particular and AST got one too. So yes, you really can.

But what you say is why people were concerned about AST way back in pre-3.0. We saw it was a copy of the WHM healing kit and knew it would either be strong enough to be WHM+utility, or so weak the utility wouldn't matter. At first it was the latter. Now it's the former. But for some reason SE is buffing it even more.

And, hey, WHM got its kit stripped down and shared even more for SB. SE is making the healers even more the same. Though, yeah, I don't like it. But you can, and SE has been and still is. So at this point, WHM might as well get some utility to make it not completely garbage.

See also: 2.0 Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I actually wanted reflect for whm until I thought of the balance nightmare that brings. All of a sudden bosses are killing themselves very fast if they dare aoe the party.

Nidhogg: I'm going to aoe you!!!!!!!!! *nidhogg dies*


Sorry Alpha...it's not as easy as it seems

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Just cap the max damage that the reflect can do, there balance achieved. It's not that difficult to balance out in concept and its a real nice combination of healing/mitigation/dps

My suggestion would just be to re-work the new Lillies/Confession systems to work off of HoTs or Stone spells or both to some extent. Limiting it to ONLY Cure spells seems indefensible.

I dunno, the new ability to just spam skills nigh cost-free for WHM makes it seem like it'll actually have the best burst for helping with out with DPS. It seems to me that the focus on WHM was really on boosting its MP conservation, which is a very nice touch. It just lacks anything "Flashy" like AST's new AoE Nuke.

The main issue with the lilly system as it is now is that I can't ever see stacking more than one, mayyyybe two lillies at a time. Stacking more than that would require you to deliberately not use tetra, assize, benison, or asylum in the hopes of getting more lillies just so you can reduce the cooldown on on just a single one of these abilities by an insignificant amount.

That's like driving a car ten miles out of the way to save five cents a gallon on gas.

Thank you Yoshi, if this comes true what has been previewd on Gamersescape, you most likely killed the Job I play this game for.

The White Mage natively lost:
- Cleric Stance (constant 20% Damage Bonus)
- Stone 1 (Heavy), now called "Break"
- Protect
- Esuna
- Shroud of Saints (now calles "Ludid Dreaming")
- Divine Seal (now called Largesse)

As you may know... at least Protect and Esuna are a basic Utility to a healer. Same goes for Shroud of Saints who needs to maintain some sort of MP Refresh. Thin Air and Assize do NOT make up for this. AST has his Cards, Scholar has Aetherflow and Drain.
Divine Seal was always great combined with Regen and Medica II to up the time I do not have the take care for heals. I have to use 4 Slots to get back some of my bread and butter abilities + need swiftcast. Great Job... a total Rip Off!

Sad work, SE. :(

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

Precisely. You and Sebazy have it correct, given what the tooltip is showing :)

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Lol I confused names. Sorry, I'm still triggered by these WHM abilities.

https://redd.it/6egimw

The link to the aforementioned healer skill analysis on Reddit.

I have nothing else to say anymore. I'm literally done. WTH. Now, will I switch over to PLD or SCH next tier...
Or jump over my own shadow and play AST *pukes*

Also, I would advice everyone to just ignore javid. He obviously is trolling, and as the old saying goes, don't feed the troll.

fin

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Your CNJ is level 15.

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No, the right answer is : tell us why you think the new WHM changes are amazing.
I'm very curious about this. From my point of view the new WHM... Well... /sigh

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Your CNJ is level 15.

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I have an alt you see.

Wait to see how Omega will work before saying White Mage has no raid utility or if they made a mistake.

This meta looks to be really defensive so I guess the damages could be really heavy and sometimes, White Mage could make the different.

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Originally Posted by Yallaid

i don't know what WHM out there were casting mostly Cure I and Cure II but the changes they've announced so far seem to cement that as a WHM main job: cast Cure I and Cure II on as many targets as possible as often as possible to proc Lillies and Confession.

The problem: wasn't WHM the Heals over Time job? So Medica II, Regen, Asylum don't interact with the new systems at all. I know personally, my healing style is to stack HoTs on a target and heal whatever needs to be made up with Cure I and II. Now it'll be flipped, I'll want to reduce how much I rely on HoTs so that I can get as many stacks as possible? It just doesn't feel like it's working how it's supposed to.

I think WHM dps is fine, Holy is still there and we have new MP management. But what the heck happened to our healing??

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Clearly Yoshi-P made these changes because Healers were not playing Healers, they were playing DPS.
The way the changes are made are the way you are supposed to play WHM in the first place.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Wait to see how Omega will work before saying White Mage has no raid utility or if they made a mistake.

This meta looks to be really defensive so I guess the damages could be really heavy and sometimes, White Mage could make the different.

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AST has the stronger heals so even if the encounter is super damage heavy, you still want AST and not WHM.

All I have to say is what I'm seeing is a total mess. I have AST and SCH leveled, so I can easily switch, and at this point it looks like I'll have to as this current WHM design is very... well, let's just go with bad. We lose several things that now MUST be cross classed where they didn't have to be before, resulting in us actually losing abilities that we used to have access to. The RNG mechanics are totally wrong headed and poorly thought out. And we have gained very little to replace what we lost. So unless something has radically changed since these tour events for WHM it is looking an awful lot like my off main of AST is going to become my main and WHM will be the last healer I level despite being my former favorite.

Anyone with a brain knows 1 balance card is more powerful than any of the whms new skills. Math isn't as hard as you think and you shouldn't really have a hard time figuring that out.

The quicker the boss dies the less people need to be healed. Start using your brains please, the thread is warranted.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I'm sorry but you can't make all the healers the same.
You just can't, it would end up to not having a choice anymore.

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Just because you put scenarios that can make it broken doesn't mean it needs to be broken. You can cap it. You can make it Single target, there's different ways to not make the ability a complete shitshow. Again that ability that I've put it's better than the new mechanics we are getting with the lilies or the new lvl 70 ability that feels like a complete joke.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

It isn't intended to be another aoe heal, rather the radius is there to allow it to be used on multiple targets, e.g. in FaustZ, you'll likely be casting a fair amount of cures across both tanks, in this situation you'll likely be able to use Plenary almost on cooldown either to play it safe or buy yourself a few more DPS GCDs.

In a single tank situation, it's simply going to be a tank specific instant free heal on a short cooldown assuming the incoming damage is sufficient to actually proc it.

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I like the idea of it, but a 20% activation rate on confession is far too low in my opinion. I honestly don't think it would hurt if it was 50% or even higher.

Certain fights like A11S it's not uncommon to not cast a single cure or cure 2 the entire fight. (although that is with echo, and Cruise Chaser's damage on the tanks is stupidly low)

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Originally Posted by Eothas

AST's new skill (Earthly Star) is similar to assize and outclasses it completely. Assize has 300+300 potency and Earthly Star has 900 (!!!) + 200 potency, it just requires a bit of planning ahead for maximum efficiency. With this new skill AST will have an even easier time healing content plus the broken Balance. Honestly, anyone saying that WHM is fine must be trolling.

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Hi.

Earthly Star isn't going to be anything like Assize and it'll have a completely different style of usage, I actually think Earthly Star is going to be AST's spin on Cure III. The key detail to note here is that it has a radius and currently, that radius is 1 yalm (Which I strongly hope is a typo in the tooltip), the effect for it makes me think it's going to be more around the 8 yalm radius once the dust has settled. Much like Cure III it's a big and precise burst of aoe HPS to a specific spot (or target).

In some respects it'll be the better ability, no MP cost, ground targetable for more precision and a raw potency advantage. On the flipside, you've got that cooldown so you'd better place it careful, and it's also worth noting that it's highly likely that the new Divine Seal won't buff it as well.

I do agree that the Lilly mechanic is underwhelming tho. Fingers crossed Omega brings some nice big consistent healer checks to get some use out of our 4.0 abilities.

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Originally Posted by Yallaid

i really think just doing something about the Cure I/II proc limitation would be enough. I'll leave the raid meta balancing to others to let them figure out the perfect potency values for everyone, but the reliance on hard casted Cure I and Cure II's is so bizarre that it's going to drive people away from the job quick.

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I think this was SE's very half-assed attempt at solving the damage-dealing expectations in regards to WHM. The only way to do that was to move away from WHM's emphasis on HoT spells, because by their very nature, those leave you free to do other stuff - namely deal damage.

By linking a lot of our new toys to spamming non-HoT spells, they'll take away a lot of the perceived 'idle time' that WHMs previously had to contribute some DPS to the party. Which, honestly, is likely to cost us damage in the long run. I haven't worked out the numbers, but I'd be surprised if the RNG-fueled Lily / Confession system paired with Assize spam actually improved our damage over continuing to ignore Cure / Cure II in favour of Regen, and spamming Stone IV the rest of the time. That said, it'll still be close enough for people to not bitch about people who stupidly maintain that healers should never cast a non-healing spell ever.

I also agree with your sentiments, by the way - this is likely to drive people away from the job. I long ago decided to hold off on purchasing Stormblood until I saw the combat changes go live, and played around with them a bit. It's already looking like I'll need to find a different main, and considering WHM is my favourite job to play right now, it's quite likely that Stormblood will usher in a less-fun gameplay experience for me. Whether or not I can live with the changes or find a new entertaining job to play post-4.0 will go a long way toward determining if I continue to play FFXIV.

What a shame.

WHM will likely get fixes and AST will likely get nerfs. Remember how fast MCH and AST were buffed upon 3.0's release.

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

No, the right answer is : tell us why you think the new WHM changes are amazing.
I'm very curious about this. From my point of view the new WHM... Well... /sigh

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I truly would like to see someone try to argue why 4.0 is competitive/ improved/ viable in any way. AST has an equivalent for all of our skills and they have higher potencies.

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Originally Posted by Vanitas

I have an alt you see.

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I'm sure you do.

While this is disappointing on the changes to white mage, I say - WAIT. Level the class first. Get the numbers, compare, see how it plays for you. Then, make it known.

Hold off the RIP signs until we play it.

Well raiders are not usually "casual" players which is what this game caters to.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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You make a valid point, and apologies if my post seemed more salt than helpful. Was more directing it to Javid. As for how it would work out I don't see it being a problem in dungeons. Main concern would be in the raid area. As is at the moment it can be seen as another emergency heal for the mt/ot and the lucky few who happen to have stacks at the moment. It being a 15 second cooldown is also nice, and all this reflects SE "pure healer" direction SE has decided to take with it. It feels like another tetra with lower cooldown and we have to build up. Also RNG.... /sigh

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I admire your attitude! I don't know if I'll be going near WHM in its current 4.0 state tbh. I do like Thin Air, it'll be boss for some DPS burst, but there's something so wrong about WHM healing being dependent on procs. It's almost like we're being forced into a rotation (Cure II > Cure II > Cure II) to be able make full use of our kit, which is effectively the opposite of optimal healing.

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Haha thanks!
I'm hoping that once we actually get to try it out, it'll play a bit smoother than we thought. I know MP is an issue now but I'm also hoping that we will still be viable, and maybe we can find a way to separate us from other healers D: I think our HoT are still going to be pretty formidable though! I would be sad if they gimped those <_>

I don't really have much to say...other than I'm really disappointed. I've always loved WHM and it has been my main class for 2 1/2 years now, but with these questionable changes, I think I'm going to play something different. Like, why would they think this was okay? I have more on my mind, but I don't think it can put it into something that could be read clearly, so I'll refrain.

Honestly, I'm not sure if I'll level WHM in Stormblood, and I'm thinking about sitting out healers all together.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

Precisely. You and Sebazy have it correct, given what the tooltip is showing :)

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Actually it's not precise. But SE can make it precisely say what YOU think it means with one just a few more words.

for example it could read

"Restore's HP of all nearby party members. Potency varies with current [individual's] confession stack(s)."

The way it's worded now makes it ambiguous who's confession is in question? Is it one confession determines everyone's potency? or is it every confession stack for himself??


And if it's actually "individual confession only heal"; then it's just a nice lil shorter cd to Tetragram for MT healing..........not horrible but doesn't seem to fit the plan to make the hotbar less cumbersome giving us a shorter recast but also weaker potency tetragram....that has an EXTREMMEEEELLYYY rare "perk" that it might heal 1 or 2 other person(s) too......



EDIT

I just saw the PI used in a video and it's and aoe that affect everyone with personal confessions. The video had drg with 1 stack of confession and the whm with 0; then WHM (clearly in range) activated PI and it cured the drg and removed his confession; meanwhile the Whm did not gain any heals during that action- since the whm had no personal confession stacks........

Thanks SE for ruining a fun class to play. I wonder how many people are going to stop healing completely now? Should make queueing for Roulette fun.

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Originally Posted by Cedane

While this is disappointing on the changes to white mage, I say - WAIT. Level the class first. Get the numbers, compare, see how it plays for you. Then, make it known.

Hold off the RIP signs until we play it.

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I wish I could be optimistic, but numbers won't make any difference. It doesn't matter if our heal potency gets buffed (and so far AST seems to exceed WHM in that regard) more healing doesn't address the problem. Healing was never WHM's problem. They do it well and have an excess of tools to do it with. Its the lack of things outside of healing that hurts WHM. Losing Stoneskin only exacerbates that and getting no group/raid dps buff of some sort leaves WHM seriously lacking in usefulness compared to SCH and especially AST.

Once the hp recovery threshold is met (and all healers are designed to be capable of meeting this threshold) then whatever utility you have beyond that is what determines your value to the group. When it comes to what they bring to the table, why take a WHM over a SCH or AST? What does WHM bring that AST and SCH don't?

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

When White mages say they want raid utility, what is it specifically that you want? Can you give examples? If it's just to copy what sch/ast already does that's not going to work. They can't make all the healers exactly the same.
Can someone give some spell/skills ideas to see if you can come up with something better? Maybe you can but please provide ideas

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Alright, so shields are out. Crit buffs are out. Direct damage buffs are out.

Haste or Slow effects could work. As mentioned, a Reflect could be interesting. Does someone have a non-personal Cooldown Reducer or Reset? Hell, a potion cooldown reset ability would be fun and useful.

oh hello @Exiled_Tonberry (OP) just passing by to say i told you so on the sch aetherflow, it got a bit nerfed to 10% from 20% but there is the trait that can reduce the cd by 10s everytime a stack is used, so its still good.
ok, have fun, later.

This thread and that Delete WHM one:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6ILKcnJOZmE/maxresdefault.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

When White mages say they want raid utility, what is it specifically that you want? Can you give examples? If it's just to copy what sch/ast already does that's not going to work. They can't make all the healers exactly the same.
Can someone give some spell/skills ideas to see if you can come up with something better? Maybe you can but please provide ideas

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Sure.

- Earth Blessing: Passive. Casting Stone spells 3 times builds Earth Blessing, which can be stacked up to 3. Casting Stoneskin II or Jagged Shield consumes all Earth Blessing stacks to reduce their cooldown.
- Stoneskin II: Can now be cast in combat with no MP cost, and has a 120 second cooldown. The effect will now also render party members immune to knockback effects as long as the barrier is up. (Can be reduced to 105/90/75 seconds.)
- Jagged Shield: Summons a shield of spires on the targeted party member or pet. The shield nullifies damage equal to 50% of the target's maximum HP at the time of casting for up to 15 seconds. When the shield is broken or the duration expires, damage equal to the shield's HP is inflicted to all enemies in a 10-yalm radius of the target (hey, a reason for Bards to use Troubadour in Mage's Ballad mode, and for Warriors to use Thrill of Battle offensively!). 60 second cooldown. (Can be reduced to 50/40/25 seconds.)

- Water Blessing: Passive. Casting two Cure/Medica/Regen spells generate Water Blessing, which can be stacked up to 5. Casting Holy also has a 25% chance to generate a stack too. These stacks are used for new spells, and at 5 stacks, the MP costs of all Cure/Medica/Regen-type spells and Holy are reduced by 20%. (Cure/Medica spells are currently considered to be wind-aspected due to the green aura when casting - this should be changed to blue.)
- Vital Aura: Requires and consumes 3 stacks of Water Blessing. Generates a barrier around all surrounding party members that shields them from critical hits. Additionally, this will also shield party members from 1 debuff, but the Aura will be canceled early to guard against a debuff attempt. No cooldown, since it's already tied to Water Blessing stacks.
- Plenary Indulgence: Same effect, but uses 1/3/5 Water Blessing stacks rather than the Confession/Lily stuff.

- Wind Blessing: Passive. Each time Aero-type spells inflict critical damage, a Wind Blessing is generated, stacking up to 10 times. Once the 10th Blessing is granted, they are automatically consumed to grant Rage of the Wind for 20 seconds, which eliminates Aero III's cast time and allows an Assize on cooldown to be immediately used again. It also allows a new spell to be used.
- Tornado: Can only be cast while under Rage of the Wind status. Inflicts 50 potency damage to the target and all enemies surrounding them, along with inflicting Aero and Aero II debuffs. Casting immediately cancels Rage of the Wind status, allowing Wind Blessing stacks to be built up again. No cooldown (on account of the cooldown already being tied to building up Wind Blessing stacks back up to Rage of the Wind again).

- Will of the Elementals: The White Mage borrows the power of the Wind, Water, and Earth elementals to summon a field of destruction and succor both. Enemies inside the field take damage over time from the searing winds within, and the water also drops their magic resistance by 5%. The power of the earth also shields party members inside the field, reducing damage taken by 10%. Requires at least 1 stack of Wind, Water, and Earth Blessing, and using the skill will consume all stacks, though effects do not change depending on how many stacks are consumed. 15 second duration, 180 second cooldown.

Note: I came up with all of this on the spot, and I don't even main White Mage. (Though I used to, I switched to Bard about a full year ago.)

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Originally Posted by ErryK

schloop

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Feel better?

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Originally Posted by Kethic

Alright, so shields are out. Crit buffs are out. Direct damage buffs are out.

Haste or Slow effects could work. As mentioned, a Reflect could be interesting. Does someone have a non-personal Cooldown Reducer or Reset? Hell, a potion cooldown reset ability would be fun and useful.

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I was expecting reflect, shell, and auto-raise for WHM honestly.

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Originally Posted by Kethic

Alright, so shields are out. Crit buffs are out. Direct damage buffs are out.

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Nope, not by his metric. Both SCH and AST have haste effects and SCH has slow.

Pre-cast auto-raise is a good call. That would go a long way towards improving progression usefulness, while keeping the Pure Healer image.

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Originally Posted by javid

The way it's worded now makes it ambiguous who's confession is in question? Is it one confession determines everyone's potency? or is it every confession stack for himself??

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The wording really isn't very ambiguous at all. It would be something of a leap to read it as "total potency varies according to target within radius with highest Confession stacking." I think it is what it looks like.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

This thread and that Delete WHM one

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You talk as if healers aren't already 50% salt.