Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

TBH Feint is not a waste. Although it won't be used frequently but there will be times you are caught in big circle AoE where the AoE's cast time is not long enough for you to cast-move like how you do on BLM, you will have to use Feint as a filler like how BLM uses Scathe for that matter. If you move out of that AoE without using a GCD move you are losing DPS.

TP isn't an issue due to the benefits of IJ.

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Any scenario like that you'd gain far more DPS from dropping out of WM for a second and getting in a gcd w/aa or two than using a single GCD and hoping you can cast again, when you can easily stance right back into WM.

Also if the waste was in reference to my comments I never called it a waste, I said it was a waste to use it and not use HS in the situation he brought up, not the skill itself.

So, when are they fixing Keeper's Paeon?

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Originally Posted by Wishles

So, when are they fixing Keeper's Paeon?

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It now blocks warrior's pacify. So that might all there is to what they call fixing it.

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Originally Posted by Argentt

Bard with WM up is no less clunky than it was before patch. Weaving in off-gcds still doesn't flow very well, especially when using Straight/Straighter Shot. At least the MCH was built from the ground up designed around their barrel stances. WM was plainly just bolted on to keep Bard equivalent to MCH with very little consideration of the way the abilities flow and the frequency of off-gcds.

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what i meant with that was the activation of WM sry if i misspelled that or you got it wrong (not rly an native english speaker)

also parsing around 930 on a dummy with nearly max itemlvl are not good they are actually rly bad if consider what other dps classes bring to the table

BRD is still broken. it's better to bring 3 tanks instead. Something is wrong no?
I suggest to take out casting time on brd's abiities. Keep the auto-attacks off during wanderer's minuet but make all abilities instant.
BRD has never been the strongest DPS before, it was always a tad above tanks, but now it has been made worse.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

It now blocks warrior's pacify. So that might all there is to what they call fixing it.

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So that means that WAR, NIN and BRD are best friends?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

So that means that WAR, NIN and BRD are best friends?

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That would be the case if the song lasted 45sec instead of 30.
Right now it leaves very little room for a BRD to pre-cast it, and it means the WAR would have to berserk 5sec after pull.
So nah the song is still almost useless.

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Originally Posted by Melch

BRD has never been the strongest DPS before, it was always a tad above tanks, but now it has been made worse.

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Actually, bard was totally the strongest DPS back in 2.0. I mean maybe not in damage(But their damage was comparable to other DPS roles), but combined with that, utility, and mobility, and their songs stacking, you'd have coil parties with four bards in them.

Not that that justifies them firing chicken nuggets at their foes like they do now, of course. Just food for thought.

well bards have one place in raids and thats in progress because the manasong is needed by many grps but they dont take us our skill or our dmg only for that damn song that debuffs us even more if we play it (not that thats anything new). a damn shame is what bard is right now. just as mr j.r.r. martin (man u look so much like him) above me said only that chicken wings are still too strong for a weapon i would say cotton balls ^^



EDIT: just read a great idea from the japanese forum let make WM a raidwide buff so melee can flame it as well and caster ofc get extra cast time from it its only fair ... had a real good laugh about that one great idea XD

Hello

Live Letter XXIII its over, and Yoshi-P said that WM its fine and They are not gonna change it :)

If You are not enjoying current bard state, maybe reroll time?.

NIN, DRG, SMN look really fun currently :)

Live Letter Stuff:

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Q3. Any plans to add new role category such as “buffer” for jobs specialized in support like machinist and bards?

A3. We currently have no plans for this. The main reason behind this is because it will greatly affect the matching in the Duty Finder.

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I agree with you, so stop double dipping into our DPS (10% off our WD off the top and 15% to "support") since we're not support. We're DPS w/ support, like every other DPS.

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Q12. The bard playstyle changed a lot in 3.0. Can you please let us know how bards are supposed to fight from here on out?

A12. Bards can attack while moving, therefore they have advantage over handling mechanics as well as the ability to support party members. Our image of bards from the development side is that by making them stationary in 3.0, they are now able to increase their DPS. However, we made adjustments so bards will be able to switch between their stances easier. This doesn’t mean that they won’t be able to deal damage while moving, and bards will understand when to switch between stances once they get used to the content, as well as experiment how they can output more DPS changing between stances.

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Yes, we can attack while moving, for the 30% boost WM gives our damage now. Sure that's mitigated somewhat by our det nerfed autoattacks, but we're still being punished for our mobility. Every job can support somehow, and we are punished twice for it. Switching stances easier is fine, we're still going to lose the dps boost WM gives to our lower DPS to do so, and continue to be farther behind others in our role. Still need to fix oGCD related matters since the job wasn't originally built for this playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

Hello

Live Letter XXIII its over, and Yoshi-P said that WM its fine and They are not gonna change it :)

If You are not enjoying current bard state, maybe reroll time?.

NIN, DRG, SMN look really fun currently :)

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Leaning toward letting the subscription run out until we get more story personally, it's money I could sink into another game. I have been having fun w/ my DRG alt though.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Any scenario like that you'd gain far more DPS from dropping out of WM for a second and getting in a gcd w/aa or two than using a single GCD and hoping you can cast again, when you can easily stance right back into WM.

Also if the waste was in reference to my comments I never called it a waste, I said it was a waste to use it and not use HS in the situation he brought up, not the skill itself.

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Dropping WM stance is only an option when you have no other oGCD on queue. It is eventually a DPS loss if you have a few buffs/oGCD that has to go, especially BL, because toggling on itself is considered an oGCD move.

There's just alot of prioritization going around.

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Originally Posted by NeverWinterNight

Bard 1,1k DPS on Oppressor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-c_7WUIlXM

Put your dummies away, and parse real fights.

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And? The more mobile SMN parsed 29% higher. If we do the damage in the same way (casting) we should parse closer. Not 29% lower because "muh support" or "muh mobility," especially when we don't really have that anymore.

Edit: Or are you saying it's ok to be 29% behind another DPS, and getting 4 of them in a DF run so they are all 29% less is ok? I don't happen to think it is, especially on a DPS check.

Does anyone the optimal rotation to post yet? Kreitor where are you man.

On real fights, everyone parses lower. Not just bards....

Let brds parse the same... that's fine. This game will turn into ffbard. Also, if that's the case, tell people to stop comparing brd dummy parses and melee dummy parses and crying about how they parse 300 dps higher or whatever it is now.

The brd was 10% or less in dps behind the melee and the melee were behind the smn too....

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Originally Posted by NeverWinterNight

Bard 1,1k DPS on Oppressor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-c_7WUIlXM

Put your dummies away, and parse real fights.

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Oh look, 1,1k with multi dot!

I don't deny that BRD is in a good position after the last patch, but still, stop climbing on glass. Without a DRG, like a SMN without Foe, we won't put up those numbers.

Before the second phase i didn't see this amazing dps... because that's normal to do with a BRD full 180+ plus fully buffed on a DUMMY FIGHT, because that's what Oppressor is until the split up, then bard can multi dot and still being outdpsed by everyone!

Seriously, stop being so overly positive. We still are bottom DPS because we are "support" but there isn't a support role for duty finder because that would require work to implement.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

On real fights, everyone parses lower. Not just bards....

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Yep, and the gap is still the same, and the mindset behind it is still there.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Let brds parse the same... that's fine. This game will turn into ffbard. Also, if that's the case, tell people to stop comparing brd dummy parses and melee dummy parses and crying about how they parse 300 dps higher or whatever it is now.

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Really? Because I don't see 4 SMN in that fight, or BLM. I'd don't want to parse better than melee, I want to parse as a Caster, in Caster stance.

Gotta say, from reading all this crying and saltiness, seems like some brds want to the same or pretty much close to other pure DPS jobs + party wide buffs + mobility (still the most mobile class in game, you just have to stance dance now) is asking to be OP as hell. Have to have some trade offs somewhere, or people will only take BRDs in heavy AOE fights where melees have to stop DPSing constantly. reminds me of the early 2.xx days lol

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A12. Bards can attack while moving, therefore they have advantage over handling mechanics as well as the ability to support party members. Our image of bards from the development side is that by making them stationary in 3.0, they are now able to increase their DPS. However, we made adjustments so bards will be able to switch between their stances easier. This doesn’t mean that they won’t be able to deal damage while moving, and bards will understand when to switch between stances once they get used to the content, as well as experiment how they can output more DPS changing between stances.

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might actually play BRD or MCH now since the stance dancing adds a whole new layer on how jobs play.

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Originally Posted by NeverWinterNight

Bard 1,1k DPS on Oppressor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-c_7WUIlXM

Put your dummies away, and parse real fights.

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Thats 100% reliant on having a DRG in party, we did a similar kill vid but we had our MCH go NiN since we don't run/have a DRG.
http://i.imgur.com/fe8jDRF.png

What does this have to do with this thread? Just saying that BRD needs a DRG to be competitive, which shouldn't be the case. We had to not roll BRD or MCH because we wouldn't have killed it before first jump since there was no DRG and Foe's alone won't make taking a BRD worth it without one.

If I played BRD this run I would have been behind our WAR which was basically at 1k dps.

Atm I do think BRD n MCH is at a good place DPS wise but for you to link that video to prove a point is counter productive because you don't consider the specifics.

Personally, I hate WM, I didn't spend the last year getting my bard over geared to be screwed over by acrappy change to my favorite class, but rather than just rant and bitch here's what I'd do to fix it.

1. Restore Sidewinder and E-Arrow back to there pre-nerf dmg.
2. Add a 1.5 cast timer to Sidewinder, E-arrow and Iron jaws.
3. Remove WM and change with a buff that remove the cast time on the next weapon with one.

As far as MCH goes, they took a class that people learned for 22 Levels and change they whole way it's played.
MCH should have just had the 1.5 cast time from level 30.

Now for the BLM and healers that were complaining about movement.
BLM didn't have it's entire play style changed with the new Expansion, you still have to stand and cast.
The healers didn't have there classes serious changed ether, if anything AST is underpowered and needs to be buffed

So in the meantime, I now have a level 60 bard that's going into semi to permanent retirement.
If I don't quit all together.

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Originally Posted by Johaan

...might actually play BRD or MCH now since the stance dancing adds a whole new layer on how jobs play.

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Do it then come back to this thread and see if feel the same. Practical knowledge/experience might give you a different perspective instead of an outsider looking in through tinted glass and leaving snide comments or mere assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Johaan

party wide buffs

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Actually, if it meant I could do more DPS during the times where songs aren't needed, I'd gladly give up "Party-wide" buffs in an instant.

I've said it before and I guess I have to say it again, "party-wide" means nothing. Your melee/tanks will not need MP. Your casters won't either if they're played right. Your healers might, although less likely if people don't keep dying and draining MP on revives.

So let's say I'm doing a 4-person dungeon with a warrior, white mage, dragoon, and bard. In that case, what does it matter if my ballad affects 4 people or 1?

Let's say I'm in a raid with a WAR, PLD, WHM, SCH, BRD, MNK, BLM, and DRG. Why does it matter if my song affects the entire party if only 2 people are even possibly going to benefit from it and the other 6 won't?

Players are already pulling good numbers on Alex and with time the rotation will get figured out even better and it will be alright. I think it is still too early to be doomsayers. I like the changes to my main job and I am very happy with the buff we got. That is how it should have been from the start. I just wish they would up our weapon damage and drop the penalty to -10%. That would be ideal.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

Players are already pulling good numbers on Alex and with time the rotation will get figured out even better and it will be alright.

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From what I have seen the only thing really keeping our output up is the reliance on multi-dotting but in fights where that is not possible our output does seem to drop substantially. Something to also keep in mind is all current parsers especially ACT which most people have been shown using in these arguments does not accurately register your DoT's or HoT's, it 'simulates' or another way of putting it is estimates your DoT and HoT output. Since the parses with decent output so far mostly rely on those DoT estimations I wouldn't go taking those parses as 100% accurate.

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Originally Posted by Arrik

Yep, and the gap is still the same, and the mindset behind it is still there.


Really? Because I don't see 4 SMN in that fight, or BLM. I'd don't want to parse better than melee, I want to parse as a Caster, in Caster stance.

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Gap between casters? Or melee? At least the brd can multidot efficiently in the fight. I want to do that as a melee.

Blm have worst cast times than brd. Brds don't hold up to theirs.

They could have run 4 smns of that level, it would have been faster. The melee were not needed except to maybe use lb. If brds did the same, their bursts would be higher and they would be even faster than than the smns.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Blm have worst cast times than brd. Brds don't hold up to theirs.

The could have run 4 smns, it would have been faster. If brds did the same, their bursts would be higher and they would be even faster than than the smns.

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Yes, and there are threads about BLMs too. I want all the casters to be about equal.

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Actually, if it meant I could do more DPS during the times where songs aren't needed, I'd gladly give up "Party-wide" buffs in an instant.

I've said it before and I guess I have to say it again, "party-wide" means nothing. Your melee/tanks will not need MP. Your casters won't either if they're played right. Your healers might, although less likely if people don't keep dying and draining MP on revives.

So let's say I'm doing a 4-person dungeon with a warrior, white mage, dragoon, and bard. In that case, what does it matter if my ballad affects 4 people or 1?

Let's say I'm in a raid with a WAR, PLD, WHM, SCH, BRD, MNK, BLM, and DRG. Why does it matter if my song affects the entire party if only 2 people are even possibly going to benefit from it and the other 6 won't?

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Really... Lets not go to deep into word play now.... brd is still a party supporter with their songs, in a perfect world where people play their roles to 100% of their ability, you "might" have a point, but shit happens, people make mistakes, take extra dmg, die. especially in a progression raid parties.

Have a ninja in your party to goad people? great play some foes for your casters, shit hits the fan and healers need MP? switch to ballad, no ninja and tanks need TP or meeles died and are TP starved? Peon it is. its all about class synergy and balance. which some people have trouble looking at.

wouldn't use 4 man dungeons to gauge a jobs performance.

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Originally Posted by Johaan

wouldn't use 4 man dungeons to gauge a jobs performance.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Actually, if it meant I could do more DPS during the times where songs aren't needed, I'd gladly give up "Party-wide" buffs in an instant.

I've said it before and I guess I have to say it again, "party-wide" means nothing. Your melee/tanks will not need MP. Your casters won't either if they're played right. Your healers might, although less likely if people don't keep dying and draining MP on revives.

So let's say I'm doing a 4-person dungeon with a warrior, white mage, dragoon, and bard. In that case, what does it matter if my ballad affects 4 people or 1?

Let's say I'm in a raid with a WAR, PLD, WHM, SCH, BRD, MNK, BLM, and DRG. Why does it matter if my song affects the entire party if only 2 people are even possibly going to benefit from it and the other 6 won't?

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Reading comprehension, yo.

Edit: The point is, we have party wide buffs that never affect the whole pt, and yet people seem to think they are some grand thing. Also, Battle Litany says hi. Also, before you chime in "Battle Litany isn't up as long as you have MP," Battle Litany is balanced around recast, ours around MP. Ours shouldn't be MP, 15% damage, and a 10% WD decrease.

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Originally Posted by Johaan

wouldn't use 4 man dungeons to gauge a jobs performance.

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Yeah, lots of people like to ignore them despite the fact that they're the majority of the game and raiding is a minority.

Doesn't change the fact that it doesn't matter if the spells are single target or party-wide. If it meant I'd be able to do better DPS for the 95% of the time where I'm not playing songs, I'd gladly have my songs become single target.

I don't understand what this thread is doing in the DPS roles forum. BRD is a support class, your bottom tier dps would be more fitting in the Healer forums since they also support other classes. You're MP healers, an accessory to the WHM and SCH.

Geez, people are just talking about DPS while it's the least of our concerns honestly.

In the first place no one was playing bard because of its DPS else they would play another class. People were playing bard because it was fun to play a ranged dps without casting time even though it meant to have a lower dps. No one was really bitching about our numbers but SE gave us tools to increase our dps... right. They changed our core gameplay and that's the problem. They turned us into mages while still dealing less damage than other dps... The gameplay is almost 2 years old and they're changing it that makes no sense. I think everyone would have been happy if they gave us more utility without raising our dps.

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Originally Posted by PopeHat

I don't understand what this thread is doing in the DPS roles forum. BRD is a support class, your bottom tier dps would be more fitting in the Healer forums since they also support other classes. You're MP healers, an accessory to the WHM and SCH.

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Since we have cast times I honestly feel like we should start singing our damage spells to the enemy, and you're right. Where are our support forums.

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Originally Posted by PopeHat

I don't understand what this thread is doing in the DPS roles forum. BRD is a support class, your bottom tier dps would be more fitting in the Healer forums since they also support other classes. You're MP healers, an accessory to the WHM and SCH.

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So I can join your team just to play Ballad and watch netfix on my other screen when ballad is not needed?

Bards don't exist anymore. They're bow mages. Start calling them that

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Geez, people are just talking about DPS while it's the least of our concerns honestly.

In the first place no one was playing bard because of its DPS else they would play another class. People were playing bard because it was fun to play a ranged dps without casting time even though it meant to have a lower dps. No one was really bitching about our numbers but SE gave us tools to increase our dps... right. They changed our core gameplay and that's the problem. They turned us into mages while still dealing less damage than other dps... The gameplay is almost 2 years old and they're changing it that makes no sense. I think everyone would have been happy if they gave us more utility without raising our dps.

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This, exactly. I dont care about all this dps-crying at all. I cant stand the fact they changed THE core element of bards. Blackmages choose to be casters. Bards choose to be mobile. Even tho Bards couldnt really compete with other dps, our dps still wasnt bad and as long as your team hits the required dps-checks, its fine. I've been bard for nearly 2 years now. I enjoyed having important tasks like Renauds/Redfire etc. Absolutely dont understand, why they changed a class, that exists like this for 2 years by now. Should have only brought MCN with casttime, since its a new class. So people could choose between ranged with/out casttime.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Let brds parse the same... that's fine. This game will turn into ffbard.

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Implement boss fights with mechanics that punish ranged while favoring melee. There, I fixed the problem.

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Originally Posted by Johaan

might actually play BRD or MCH now since the stance dancing adds a whole new layer on how jobs play.

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Waiting 15 seconds to switch a stance off is NOT stance dancing. Stance dancing would be switching to a stance, use the ability relevant to that stance, then switching back. Activating WM gets you stuck in that stance for 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Choko_TS

Absolutely don't understand, why they changed a class that exists like this for 2 years by now. Should have only brought MCN with cast time, since its a new class. So people could choose between ranged with/out cast time.

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If the change weren't as forced, I think more people would have been able to adjust to it. Sure, design MCH around more cast times (really, why didn't they do this?). If you're hellbent of giving BRD casts, give Bloodletter and Windbite cast times and leave Heavy Shot, Straight Shot, Venomous Bite and Misery's End as is. That way you have 4 skills instant, 4 skills with casts (Bloodletter, Windbite, Empyreal Arrow and Sidewinder), keep auto attacks and some mobility (assuming you were to give BL a cast, this would mean to use BL procs the BRD would have to stand still).

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Originally Posted by Choko_TS

Should have only brought MCN with casttime, since its a new class. So people could choose between ranged with/out casttime.

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We can clearly see they developed MCH before BRD. The idea being "deleting" cast times with ammo is great since if you know you have to move soon you'll keep your ammo to keep GB while moving. But with bards it feels totally clunky and not natural at all. They thought it was unfair to give only the MCH cast time so they felt obligated to give bard some...

Every class in the extension was meant to be embellished not redesigned. BLM is probably the second class that changed the most and yet you can see how their new spells are an extension of their core gameplay which is being a turret. Bard core gameplay was hitting while moving without cast time, why didn't they keep up with this? Hope enough people cry about this change so I don't feel forced to play a class with cast times anymore.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

We can clearly see they developed MCH before BRD. The idea being "deleting" cast times with ammo is great since if you know you have to move soon you'll keep your ammo to keep GB while moving. But with bards it feels totally clunky and not natural at all. They thought it was unfair to give only the MCH cast time so they felt obligated to give bard some...

Every class in the extension was meant to be embellished not redesigned. BLM is probably the second class that changed the most and yet you can see how their new spells are an extension of their core gameplay which is being a turret. Bard core gameplay was hitting while moving without cast time, why didn't they keep up with this? Hope enough people cry about this change so I don't feel forced to play a class with cast times anymore.

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Yoshi pretty much said yesterday in the live letter to get used to it.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Yoshi pretty much said yesterday in the live letter to get used to it.

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He also told warriors to learn to play back when ARR launched, so it can still go either way.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

He also told warriors to learn to play back when ARR launched, so it can still go either way.

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Except this time he did not say learn to play, he said get over it. When he told warriors to learn to play, he gave them a buff. He told BRD to get over it and gave them a buff. BRD is currently putting out some very nice numbers, if anything I would say increase straight shot proc rate to 50% (for mobility purposes) and call it a day.