Shots Fired: A Machinist Guide

So 3.01 do we stance dance still or leave GB on except for instances with alot of movement?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daemonxel

So 3.01 do we stance dance still or leave GB on except for instances with alot of movement?

---

I think the general consensus is leave it on except for high movement phases.

So by the guide I should be holding Blood for Blood to pop with Hawks Eye and the rest.
But what of Hypercharge?

The cooldown list places it in the combo, but past the opener it doesn't line up as neatly like the other cds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darrow

So by the guide I should be holding Blood for Blood to pop with Hawks Eye and the rest.
But what of Hypercharge?

The cooldown list places it in the combo, but past the opener it doesn't line up as neatly like the other cds.

---

Unfortunately, Hypercharge won't line up too well and it isn't worth waiting an extra 30 seconds for it to come up. I just end up popping it by itself with Reload. The other abilities (Blood for Blood, Hawk's Eye, Rapid Fire and Wildfire) I use when they're ready. It's worth waiting the 10 extra seconds on Blood for Blood to line it up.

Right now MCHs biggest weakness is that we're almost too cooldown reliant and if something happens to mess up that buff phase (like Quarantine on A4), you can say goodbye to doing really good dps. It's very hard for this class to recover from something like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daemonxel

So 3.01 do we stance dance still or leave GB on except for instances with alot of movement?

---

its definitely a dps increase to at least toggle GB. stance dancing and leaving it on for extended amounts of time is debatable. it takes decent oGCD management to know when you're able to mess with GB for a bit of extra dps though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cronno

So how is Machinist now? I'm kind of interested in playing it, but not if they still suck.

---

If you go in aware that you are a DPS/support hybrid and not reach DPS levels of a good caster or melee, then yes it is very fun. I find it more fun than BRD at least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiurily

its definitely a dps increase to at least toggle GB. stance dancing and leaving it on for extended amounts of time is debatable. it takes decent oGCD management to know when you're able to mess with GB for a bit of extra dps though.

---

I've been looking into this to see what might be optimal, since AA + Weapon Skills is higher than Weapon Skills in Gauss.

Here's what I've come up with

1) GB ON -> Round + Lead ---- @ 20s Round/GB Off (No more Barrel for 10s)
2) GB ON -> Lead -> Round -> GB Off(20s window no Barrel) ->Repeat @ 1

So ~ 1/2 the time is spent outside of GB over 60s. But then you have your WildFire phase to include.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm curious if there is an issue with MCN Rook Damage. It is labeled as 80 Potency and yet it does the same damage as the MCN AA (with my current gear)

Which ends up being about half the damage of Split Shot @ 140 Potency (which means my current AA/Delay value is 70 Potency @ 2.46s)

So why then is my Rook only doing 70 Potency worth of damage.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought maybe it was something to do with Increased Action Damage not effecting AA damage. But AA has scaled the same with AA since before the second Action Damage buff. (pre-lvl 40)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiurily

its definitely a dps increase to at least toggle GB. stance dancing and leaving it on for extended amounts of time is debatable. it takes decent oGCD management to know when you're able to mess with GB for a bit of extra dps though.

---

It's actually not debatable. It was a minor gain before the change from 20% to 30% damage increase, and now it's always a gain. Unless you are uncomfortable with the class and don't know how to move and still use abilities, you should always leave Gauss Barrel on.

What seems to be the optimal opener? I'm seeing a lot of different things and personal testing seems to vary. Is there one people seem to be gravitating towards?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LenTsani

It's actually not debatable. It was a minor gain before the change from 20% to 30% damage increase, and now it's always a gain. Unless you are uncomfortable with the class and don't know how to move and still use abilities, you should always leave Gauss Barrel on.

---

no, it's pretty debatable. for example, in a situation where you have pretty bad luck and get 5 split shots and have no oGCDs in that time period; doing 5 split shots in gauss is 910 potency, while doing 5 split shots without it is 700 potency+around 12s of auto attacks, roughly 4 with hive weapon. at 75~ potency per auto attack, that would be 1000 potency total compared to 5 split shots in gauss; 90 potency increase, or, a dps gain. if you get a 5th auto then it increases even more; but 4 at least is guaranteed. im pretty sure that if you were to parse with just using split shot and then slug shot on procs with gauss, then compare it to without gauss, the latter would have higher dps

it's just something that's fairly difficult to manage; if you're not in gauss for oGCD attacks or leadshot its a dps loss, then when you consider clean shot procs or the actual potency of autos (it's definitely around 60-75) the math behind it gets a bit blurry (really im just too lazy to bother with it)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divebombs

What seems to be the optimal opener? I'm seeing a lot of different things and personal testing seems to vary. Is there one people seem to be gravitating towards?

---

i think the most popular one is just frontloading all of your buffs at 4s prepull and dex potting after hotshot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cevo2mwB81o

with fey wind you'd do this

rs>he>bfb>hyper>hotshot>xpot>lead shot>reload>1>wildfire>2>qr+reassemble>3>rapid+ricochet>1>g.round>2>h.graze>1>blank>3*>2>3



*gauss off after this, assuming you get the auto and put gauss back on before the next clean shot is a dps increase, but optional if you aren't comfortable with it or would rather just gauss stance dance after the clean shot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LenTsani

It's actually not debatable..

---

You are right it isn't debatable. If you aren't toggling GB in between Buff cycles then you are playing the class wrong. Real application has shown anyone serious about MCH that this is the case but you can easily do some simple napkin math to figure out that having GB off when there are no buffs to pop and GR/Ricochet are on CD is a DPS gain.

AAs are roughly 80~ Potency. You will AA with almost every GCD with GB off so it is safe to assume the you will do a GCD + AA and then you can compare it to a GCD + GB Bonus.

Split Shot - 140 Potency. | GB = 182 With AA = 220
Slug Shot - 180 Potency. | GB = 234 With AA = 260
Clean Shot - 200 Potency. | GB = 260 With AA = 280
Lead Shot - 490 Potency. | GB = 637 With AA = 570
Hot Shot - 120 Potency. | GB = 156 With AA = 200

Starting to see a pattern?

The only skill that loses potency while not under GB is Lead Shot, which can easily be used while under GB since it has a 30 second duration. You can time its application with your GB cycles.


Obviously you want GB on for buffs and every time GR/Ricochet is up but you can easily stance dance when those aren't available which will greatly increase your DPS.

Before you would always stay in GB because it was very hard to re-apply and you would lose a lot of DPS from missing out on GR/Rico but now you can keep those on CD, apply your Dots and use your buffs while under GB and turn it off whenever it isn't needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiurily

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cevo2mwB81o

with fey wind you'd do this

rs>he>bfb>hyper>hotshot>xpot>lead shot>reload>1>wildfire>2>qr+reassemble>3>rapid+ricochet>1>g.round>2>h.graze>1>blank>3*>2>3



*gauss off after this, assuming you get the auto and put gauss back on before the next clean shot is a dps increase, but optional if you aren't comfortable with it or would rather just gauss stance dance after the clean shot

---

Why did you reapply GB for the last CS when CS w/ GB is a potency loss v GB + AA? Unless you're guaranteeing yourself a crit increase potency. Your ability would have to hit for 225+ potency to be stronger in GB v with AA. Can use an ammo proc'd CS as an example

220*1.638=360.36 (CS + GB)

(220*1.26)+(80*1.05)=361.2 (CS + AA)

Where I get my numbers from is the Increased Action Damage II trait, GB and Hot Shot. Multiplying those 3 together gives me the first potency. The second potency is (CS + (IA2*HS))+(AA*HS). Where I get my 80 potency for AA? I used the GCD timer to create a fair potency per GCD since comparing the 2 at their own timers would be pointless. Therefore at a 2.41 GCD, which is what I'm at, AA potency will be 80. Let me know if you see any flaws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Haxetc

Why did you reapply GB for the last CS when CS w/ GB is a potency loss v GB + AA?

---

the logic at the time was really just to get an auto in before wildfire exploded, since i knew slug+auto would be stronger than slug+gauss. at the time, i didn't really bother seeing if clean+auto was better than clean+gauss (or in general really, since this is mostly an alt job for me)

you could just keep gauss off after the blank and it'd work fine/better as well

something random; act potency parser puts aas at around 69-76 potency for me

From 1st post:

w/ GB
WD - 10.71
Dexterity - 1.000
Determination - 0.125
Critical Hit Rate - 0.140
Skill Speed - 0.020


Can anyone explain the logic/math behind the thought of SS being 7x worse than Crit? It's almost like GCD reduction wasn't even considered and only lead shot potency was accounted for.:confused:

Because the sim is for openers and not for general full parses, I'm assuming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiurily

something random; act potency parser puts aas at around 69-76 potency for me

---

Try parsing an ammo proc'd CS and tell me what you get :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Because the sim is for openers and not for general full parses, I'm assuming.

---

That's retarded.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eevey

That's retarded.

---

I suppose you can take stat weights as you like, but I commend Cascadi for getting a sim for the opener, which is generally the most hotly debated part of any class's rotation.

After that well...you can wait for my full featured sim to be completed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Haxetc

Try parsing an ammo proc'd CS and tell me what you get :)

---

yeah, seems pretty buggy with ammo procced shots. getting 100 consistently with ammo on proc (+9% dmg adjust), while proc with no ammo is 200

potency for autos seems about right though with variance taken into account; about 73% of the damage of a raw slug/clean shot (100 potency), or 73 potency ish

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LenTsani

It's actually not debatable...

---

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I suppose you can take stat weights as you like, but I commend Cascadi for getting a sim for the opener, which is generally the most hotly debated part of any class's rotation.

After that well...you can wait for my full featured sim to be completed.

---

There would be a hard breakpoint where you get one more skill in your opener and SS would fly to the top. If you need any testing help for your sim, let me know. I have all the 160, 170, 180, and some 190 gear. Parsing around 900 sustained (no external buffs).

edit: It would be nice if he just removed that from his post. It is very misleading to people who are trying to gear. I had someone quote this post as to why they are wearing -20ilvl gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lavieh

You are right it isn't debatable. If you aren't toggling GB in between Buff cycles then you are playing the class wrong. Real application has shown anyone serious about MCH that this is the case but you can easily do some simple napkin math to figure out that having GB off when there are no buffs to pop and GR/Ricochet are on CD is a DPS gain..

---

You are not playing the class wrong if you leave GB on 100% of the time. The added complexity of stance dancing isn't worth the very small dps gain of switching GB on and off. The times you can actually drop GB is actually very small because you will be juggling lead shot, gauss round, ricochet, blank, and head graze. Those attacks should never be used without GB and if you postpone them because you are stance dancing you are losing dps. The dps increase is marginal over a 3-5min fight and it is very easy to actually lose dps by screwing up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lavieh

You are right it isn't debatable. If you aren't toggling GB in between Buff cycles then you are playing the class wrong. Real application has shown anyone serious about MCH that this is the case but you can easily do some simple napkin math to figure out that having GB off when there are no buffs to pop and GR/Ricochet are on CD is a DPS gain.

AAs are roughly 80~ Potency. You will AA with almost every GCD with GB off so it is safe to assume the you will do a GCD + AA and then you can compare it to a GCD + GB Bonus.

Split Shot - 140 Potency. | GB = 182 With AA = 220
Slug Shot - 180 Potency. | GB = 234 With AA = 260
Clean Shot - 200 Potency. | GB = 260 With AA = 280
Lead Shot - 490 Potency. | GB = 637 With AA = 570
Hot Shot - 120 Potency. | GB = 156 With AA = 200

Starting to see a pattern?

The only skill that loses potency while not under GB is Lead Shot, which can easily be used while under GB since it has a 30 second duration. You can time its application with your GB cycles.


Obviously you want GB on for buffs and every time GR/Ricochet is up but you can easily stance dance when those aren't available which will greatly increase your DPS.

Before you would always stay in GB because it was very hard to re-apply and you would lose a lot of DPS from missing out on GR/Rico but now you can keep those on CD, apply your Dots and use your buffs while under GB and turn it off whenever it isn't needed.

---

Your numbers are a bit off. You forgot to factor in the extra damage from Increased Action Damage 2 and Hot Shot. The damage bonus on GB would be 63.8% and 80.18% with a dragoon. Extra damage for non-GB would be 26% and 38.6% respectively. So, assuming a drg giving 10% piercing buff (rounded to nearest potency):

Split Shot-- GB w/o ammo: 252 - GB w/ ammo: 288 - No GB w/o ammo: 274 - No GB w/ ammo: 302

Slug Shot-- GB w/o ammo: 324 - GB w/ ammo: 360 - No GB w/o ammo: 329 - No GB w/ ammo: 357

Clean Shot-- GB w/o ammo: 360 - GB w/ ammo: 396 - No GB w/o ammo: 357 - No GB w/ ammo: 385

Lead Shot-- GB : 883 - No GB: 759

Hot Shot-- GB: 216 - No GB: 246

So, toggling still applies, but Clean Shot also gets a higher potency at all times, as does Slug Shot when ammo is up. I think the best way would be to start with GB on, do your big opener, turn it off until your next Gauss Round is ready. With the 15 second cooldown, you might as well keep it on for 20 seconds until the next Gauss Round is up before turning it off again. You just always want to make sure it's up and ready for buff phase, Ricochet and GR. Yes, it's a dps increase, but the question is how much-- and how easy will it actually be to do when you're dodging mechanics and dealing with phase changes.

The biggest thing about GB is it's scaling. AA's don't benefit from Increased Action Damage, so they will always remain static while GB will push higher potencies beyond what AAs can give. Now, if GB affected turrets as well, that would make it no contest to keep it on at all times, but sadly, it doesn't.

the way i read slash/pierce debuff works is rather than being multiplicative with your modifiers, it simply just means you divide your potency after the modifiers by 0.9 to factor the debuff in the final numbers. so split with gauss would be 140 x 1.638 (229.30), then divided by 0.9 for debuff=254.8 (255 rounded) vs the 252 rounded

stance dancing is manageable, but i've been finding it takes a fair amount of tunnelvision to make sure that head graze/blank also are used in gauss only. im sure if you ignored those oGCDs that the benefit from stance dancing would be pretty small; but working around rico+gr and then those two attacks as well is sort of annoying outside of a dummy fight

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

Your numbers are a bit off. You forgot to factor in the extra damage from Increased Action Damage 2 and Hot Shot.

The biggest thing about GB is it's scaling. AA's don't benefit from Increased Action Damage, so they will always remain static while GB will push higher potencies beyond what AAs can give. Now, if GB affected turrets as well, that would make it no contest to keep it on at all times, but sadly, it doesn't.

---

Without considering the DRG and only considering your Clean Shot + Gauss and Clean Shot + AA you can easily go to a test dummy and just use a proc'd clean shot over and over again, get its average then us it with GB on and get its average.

When I did this calculation it came out to be around 1250 vs 1320 Damage with the favor in CS + AA. AA's are on a slightly longer CD though.

I'm not sure how much other buffs will change the equation but considering they effect AA's too it won't be that much.

Tunnel visioning is the only reason I wouldn't consistently hop in and out of GB. Especially when learning new fights. MCH can already be very tunnel vision-y without the stance dancing.

The potency gain on CS is really small but the potency you get from Split and slug shot fishing is really high. You could easily use Head Graze and Blank while not under GB and still be gaining a decent amount of damage and mobility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lavieh

When I did this calculation it came out to be around 1250 vs 1320 Damage with the favor in CS + AA. AA's are on a slightly longer CD though.

I'm not sure how much other buffs will change the equation but considering they effect AA's too it won't be that much.

---

You need to hot shot before you do this testing though it's in favor of the AA still. With HS it's a lot closer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiurily

snip

---

Thanks for the info. I wasn't exactly sure how the debuffs worked. That would make it even better to have GB on with a DRG. And I agree about tunnel vision being the biggest problem. between having to manage procs, OGCD abilities, and dealing with mechanics during a fight, toggling GB on and off could actual prove more detrimental if you're not focused enough. MCH is a very precise class and one mistake can be costly to your dps, especially during a buff phase.

I guess we'll have to see what changes 3.05 has in store, if there's any at all.

@Lavieh: Yeah, without a DRG (or ammo) Clean Shot falls behind with GB. What makes GB strong is its scaling, which doesn't work as well with our low potencies. It's too bad GB doesn't affect turrets, but that might make them too powerful.

Higher potency with crit magnitude is also a factor if you're really planning to compare the two although I'd prefer a similar optimized parse to compare instead of theoretical.

w/ GB
CS
327.6*1.5=491.4
Slug
294.84*1.5=442.26
Split
229.32*1.5=343.98

w/o GB
CS
252*1.5=378
Slug
226.8*1.5=340.2
Split
176.4=264.6

98 Potency gain on average per crit with GB on. And when you look at actual raw noncrit potency w/ GB there is a 60~ skill potency gain. You AA every ~3s and GCDs are ~2.4s so for example in a 5 minute parse, if you have GB off for 48 seconds:

20 GCDs fit into that duration, 16 AAs fit into that duration. In that window w/ GB, based on the 60~ skill potency gain, 60*20=1200 potency gain. Without GB,80*16=1280 potency. And that's not factoring crit in. Let's assume 10% crit and 2 of those skills crit. We're looking at

w/ GB
1200+98=1298 potency

w/o GB
1280 potency

This is also not considering that there are times when stance dancing that you may have to use headgraze/blank w/o GB

You actually get 18 AA in 48 seconds. 2.64 delay. Also, AA can crit :)

Regardless, you aren't always going to be using Clean Shot and there are clear potency gains on Split shot and Slug shot (With out ammo included).

Also most guns have a 2.64 Delay ( replying to Massterchef)

The highest I have seen is 2.8 (DW gun) and lowest is 2.48 (IW)

The 60~ average potency took into account that you wouldn't be using CS/Slug as much as Split, the actual average is a bit higher.

( Weapon Delay / 3.00 ) * Weapon Damage = AA

Actual AA potency noncrit is 57. 80 was my way of factoring in crits, it might actually be lower depending on RNG.

Point is that on paper, the potency differences are negligible. Actual similar optimized parses are a better way to locate differences.

Where are you getting 57 potency? Here, go to a striking dummy. Throw your rook out (80 potency attacks) and auto attack. Look at the numbers. Let me know what you see :)

Btw, 80 potency AA comes from (GCD delay/3)×100. That's potency per GCD that your AA is doing. Actual potency is 88 every 2.64 seconds.

Oh, my mistake. I've always thought phys damage was a part of the formula.

So I've just hit 52 and I'm trying to get comfortable with GB. It plays more smoothly than I imagined it would, but one thing I'm having trouble with is weaving oGCDs. It seems that if you're quick, you can get one oGCD in after a cast-time Split Shot/Hot Shot/Lead Shot, but thus far I'm not able to do that every shot. Is it better to weave the oGCDs individually after casts (weaving as able during proc'd shots as well, of course)?

The opener in the OP seems to suggest double-buffing after every shot as though GB isn't up, so I'm not entirely sure which is proper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Haxetc

Btw, 80 potency AA comes from (GCD delay/3)×100. That's potency per GCD that your AA is doing. Actual potency is 88 every 2.64 seconds.

---

How do guns with the same delay but lower WD do less AA damage then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Massterchef

How do guns with the same delay but lower WD do less AA damage then?

---

Because physical damage effects all actual damage based on the ability/ws/aa potency. It doesn't effect the potency itself tho

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Haxetc

Because physical damage effects all actual damage based on the ability/ws/aa potency. It doesn't effect the potency itself tho

---

ah kk

/words

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alahra

*snip*

---

I only used GB with my opening Wildfire burst at 52:

Gauss Barrel > Place Turret > Hot Shot (Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, Hawk's Eye) > Lead Shot (Reload, Wildfire) > Split Shot (Rapid Fire) > Slug Shot (Reassemble) > Clean Shot (Blank) > Split Shot (Quick Reload) > Slug Shot (Head Graze) > Clean Shot > Split Shot

You can wait to get all your oGCD skills off when you need to pop your damage up abilities (B4B, RS, and HE) and also Reload into Wildfire because both of those skills have a 30s timer. It's just important you get all those skills in during the 15s of Wildfire for a huge burst of damage that will set your DPS for the next 3 minutes.

When you start getting the new skills (Hypercharge, Gauss Round, and Ricochet) I put Hypercharge between Reload and Wildfire. If you have quick fingers you can fit 2 oGCD skills in on the 2nd set of the Split > Slug > Clean combo because procs are no-cast time with normal GCD.

I'm not sure how this compares to the DPS put out in the OP but it gives me 3k+ Wildfires at level 57 with the level 55 weapon when all CDs are lined up and 1.8k-2.5k when Raging Strikes is down. The advantage for me is that it gives me a very clear rotation for Wildfire proccing without wasting any of the oGCDs when Wildfire isn't ticking.

This is what I assume my rotation will look like at 60 once I get Ricochet and not putting in a potion:

Gauss Barrel > Place Turret (Hypercharge) > Hot Shot (Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, Hawk's Eye) > Lead Shot (Reload, Wildfire) > Split Shot (Rapid Fire) > Slug Shot (Reassemble) > Clean Shot (Ricochet) > Split Shot (Blank, Quick Reload) > Slug Shot (Head Graze) > Clean Shot > Split Shot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I only used GB with my opening Wildfire burst at 52:

Gauss Barrel > Place Turret > Hot Shot (Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, Hawk's Eye) > Lead Shot (Reload, Wildfire)

---

This gets to the heart of my question, actually: you're popping 3 buffs after Hot Shot. That cuts into your next shot by quite a bit (ditto for the Reload+Wildfire after Lead Shot). Typically, you don't want to delay your GCDs/casts on DPS as it results in lost damage. Without GB up, you can comfortably fit two oGCDs in between each GCD, but as best I can tell you can only safely fit in 1 oGCD between shots with GB up. Is it worth the delay on the next cast time because of the GB modifiers?