New glamour dress on a male (art)

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

Men have their masculine sets, the only issue is they're made unisex as well

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The male talismans aren't unisex.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The male talismans aren't unisex.

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Gambler set, Gentleman outfit, and male Thavnairian outfit does. What talisman did you mention?

EDIT: Oh did you mean South Seas Talisman? Yeah I think it's the gear only exclusive for male yet only few things is male only.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The male talismans aren't unisex.

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But those all have a female-only variant, even if it's not tats and tatas like the male version. There aren't any male-exclusive items that were released without a corresponding female-only item, and yet there are plenty of female-only items released without a male-only equivalent, or with a "male" version that is, in fact, unisex.

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Originally Posted by Eul

Gambler set, Gentleman outfit, and male Thavnairian outfit does. What talisman did you mention?

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Coeurl Talisman, South seas Talisman, Ti Leaf Lei.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The male talismans aren't unisex.

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Good point, but if they just added the tattoo and necklace to the girl's bikini top, it would be. I mean, it is literally just a necklace and a tattoo iirc, it's kinda hard to make a girl version of that and keep the game's T rating.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

Good point, but if they just added the tattoo and necklace to the girl's bikini top, it would be. I mean, it is literally just a necklace and a tattoo iirc, it's kinda hard to make a girl version of that and keep the game's T rating.

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Terrible point, since there are already female-exclusive variants of those items, even if they are "different." Name one male-exclusive item that doesn't have a female-exclusive variant.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Coeurl Talisman, South seas Talisman, Ti Leaf Lei.

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Lol coeurl talisman is opposite for female's Coeurl Beach Halter and Ti Leaf Lei is opposite for female's Coronal Summer Halter.

That's not include in gender exclusive gear.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

But those all have a female-only variant, even if it's not tats and tatas like the male version. There aren't any male-exclusive items that were released without a corresponding female-only item, and yet there are plenty of female-only items released without a male-only equivalent, or with a "male" version that is, in fact, unisex.

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There are no female equivalents to the talismans. If you feel like too much female-specific gear is being released then why not advocate for more male-specific gear instead of making this a unisex issue. There already exists multiple unisex designed gear like the spring skirt, Galerus, Taffleta, that males can glamour should they choose to do so.

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Originally Posted by Eul

Lol coeurl talisman is opposite for female's Coeurl Beach Halter and Ti Leaf Lei is opposite for female's Coronal Summer Halter.

That's not include in gender exclusive gear.

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A couerl colored bikini is not anything like a talisman.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

A couerl colored bikini is not anything like a talisman.

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So you mean you want talisman that show your bare chest or what? Males only get coloured on his handband. Also talisman is like symbol of manliness.

Massterchef, by that same logic, the Lightning outfit is NOTHING like the Snow outfit. That doesn't make them any less a matched set of male/female exclusive gear. People may WANT them on the other sex, but no one is posting regular threads about it BECAUSE they're equal. Each are exclusive to one sex and they're released with the same theme.

The final straw of this thread is that sure the Thavnairian sets are different, but they were advertised as male and female locked gear when it's unisex and female locked gear. This is not acceptable.

Reference for "Equivalent" gear sets

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Originally Posted by Eul

So you mean you want talisman that show your bare chest or what?

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No.

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Originally Posted by Terrini

The final straw of this thread is that sure the Thavnairian sets are different, but they were advertised as male and female locked gear when it's unisex and female locked gear. This is not acceptable.

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Then you should advocate for a male-specific thavnarian set instead of making this an issue about one of the sets being unisex.

That's precisely what the whole thread is about. The first post has suggestions on different possibilities. One of those possibilities is a straight conversion, others are just jewelry for the male version.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Then you should advocate for a male-specific thavnarian set instead of making this an issue about one of the sets being unisex.

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/facepalm

You haven't been reading this thread at all, have you?

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Originally Posted by Nalyna

I keep hearing a lot about how dressing in traditionally female garb is basically a taboo or gross in the real world.

Guess what? This isn't the real world!

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Guess what. They use the No-No of the Real World. (taboo is a bit far fetched).

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Originally Posted by Terrini

That's precisely what the whole thread is about. The first post has suggestions on different possibilities. One of those possibilities is a straight conversion, others are just jewelry for the male version.

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Most the thread is about conversion of the current female specific gear to unisex to accommodate cross-dressing.

Male specific gear is actually designed for males. Pretty much instead of trying to modify existing gear that is already gender specific, advocate for new gear.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

LOL, wow. Those real world developers are the one's who have chosen not to allow males to wear dresses in game. Is that really that hard to understand?

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Geesh... it's called final FANTASY for goodness sake.

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Originally Posted by sosowie

Geesh... it's called final FANTASY for goodness sake.

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It's called Final Fantasy because Squaresoft was going bankrupt and the game they were making was their final attempt before crashing. It has nothing to do with the "fantasy" setting or the "fantasy" of the mind. It's about a company's last chance at survival.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

A couerl colored bikini is not anything like a talisman.

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But you'll agree that the Coeurl Beach Maro and Coeurl Beach Pareo are equivalent, yes? As well as the Coeurl Beach Tanga vs Brief, yes? The talisman is the top wear for those, the same as the Coeurl Beach Halter is the top wear. One for men, one for women. That makes it the equivalent, even if they don't look the same. Like mentioned, the Snow/Lightning sets don't look the same. Nor do the Eternal Bond sets for male/female.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Most the thread is about conversion of the current female specific gear to unisex to accommodate cross-dressing.

Male specific gear is actually designed for males. Pretty much instead of trying to modify existing gear that is already gender specific, advocate for new gear.

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So... females wearing the best man suit aren't crossdressing? Not to mention females wearing the gambler suit, or the thavnairian bolero+sarouel? Heck, just a few decades ago, women wearing trousers at all was considered crossdressing.

Most of the people posting here (that aren't arguing against it) are saying "either make female outfits unisex as well, or give male characters exclusive outfits". So yes, this thread is about both.
Because much of the gear that's been designed for males has been made unisex, whereas the same hasn't happened in the reverse case. The only male-only sets that exists have a female-only equivalent. We want them to stop with that practice, but in what way they stop it (make more unisex or make more male-only) is a bit less important.

Also, see the quote in my signature -- they've already said that they will consider making some female-only pieces unisex (probably on the timeline of Soon(tm)....), and that they'll make more male-only gear. Admittedly, that statement was probably made after they'd finalized the designs for this particular set, but it kinda felt like a slap in the face when they've said that, then a couple of weeks later publish pictures of women wearing the female-only thavnairian set and men wearing... the unisex set. But because of deadlines on designs and how they're related to release dates, I'm still keeping my hopes up for the next time they release gender-specific gear.

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

It's called Final Fantasy because Squaresoft was going bankrupt and the game they were making was their final attempt before crashing. It has nothing to do with the "fantasy" setting or the "fantasy" of the mind. It's about a company's last chance at survival.

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I think the fantasy setting may have also something to do with it.

I am curious though. Why persist in rejecting the subject of the thread?
What is there to be tarnished from allowing it and what value does it have to our society as a whole?
Is it worth defending, and if so, why?

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

It's called Final Fantasy because Squaresoft was going bankrupt and the game they were making was their final attempt before crashing. It has nothing to do with the "fantasy" setting or the "fantasy" of the mind. It's about a company's last chance at survival.

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That's apocryphal. They really just wanted a cool title that would abbreviate to FF, but "Fighting Fantasy" was taken. Sakaguchi is such an epic troll.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

But you'll agree that the Coeurl Beach Maro and Coeurl Beach Pareo are equivalent, yes? As well as the Coeurl Beach Tanga vs Brief, yes? The talisman is the top wear for those, the same as the Coeurl Beach Halter is the top wear. One for men, one for women. That makes it the equivalent, even if they don't look the same. Like mentioned, the Snow/Lightning sets don't look the same. Nor do the Eternal Bond sets for male/female.

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Equivalence is irrelevant. It defeats the purpose of being gender specific if they have the exact same appearance for both genders. Hence the reason Lightning outfit comparison is not equivalent to the tanga/brief sets. Same thing with the talismans vs halter. The appearance of the lightning gear/talismans were obviously designed for opposite genders which is the purpose of gender specific gear.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

So... females wearing the best man suit aren't crossdressing? Not to mention females wearing the gambler suit, or the thavnairian bolero+sarouel? Heck, just a few decades ago, women wearing trousers at all was considered crossdressing.

Most of the people posting here (that aren't arguing against it) are saying "either make female outfits unisex as well, or give male characters exclusive outfits". So yes, this thread is about both.
Because much of the gear that's been designed for males has been made unisex, whereas the same hasn't happened in the reverse case. The only male-only sets that exists have a female-only equivalent. We want them to stop with that practice, but in what way they stop it (make more unisex or make more male-only) is a bit less important.

Also, see the quote in my signature -- they've already said that they will consider making some female-only pieces unisex (probably on the timeline of Soon(tm)....), and that they'll make more male-only gear. Admittedly, that statement was probably made after they'd finalized the designs for this particular set, but it kinda felt like a slap in the face when they've said that, then a couple of weeks later publish pictures of women wearing the female-only thavnairian set and men wearing... the unisex set. But because of deadlines on designs and how they're related to release dates, I'm still keeping my hopes up for the next time they release gender-specific gear.

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Missing the point again. Both sexes are capable of crossdressing in this game and there are a few female designed pieces like the spring skirt, tafletta, galerus, arguably the sailor shirt that males can currently cross dress with. Point being the purpose of gender specific gear is not to have duplicates of every set, but to actually have unique gear designed for male and female. The 'male' thav set even though advertised as a male set was obviously designed for females. If you actually like the idea of gender designed sets, then making everything unisex or making an exact duplicate of sets with 1-2 modifications is obviously not a solution.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Missing the point again. Both sexes are capable of crossdressing in this game and there are a few female designed pieces like the spring skirt, tafletta, galerus, arguably the sailor shirt that males can currently cross dress with. Point being the purpose of gender specific gear is not to have duplicates of every set, but to actually have unique gear designed for male and female. The 'male' thav set even though advertised as a male set was obviously designed for females. If you actually like the idea of gender designed sets, then making everything unisex or making an exact duplicate of sets with 1-2 modifications is obviously not a solution.

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That right there is a kick in the face, since the Sailor Shirt was the FIRST exclusive MALE designed gear that was made unisex so females could wear it too. It was released equivalent with the spring set. And here you go calling the MALE DESIGNED gear cross-dressing. And you're saying that the open bare chest vest was designed FOR females too?

The way you present it is "Oh, everything's made to be worn by women anyway". and the SPRING SKIRT is still gender locked. The made a very similar new gear PLAIN LONG SKIRT that is not gender locked. Main difference? Spring Skirt has a bow. Plain Long skirt does not. Couldn't thy have just rescinded gender lock and had it be without a bow for men? But no, they kept the inequality of gears available for men and women.

Yes, men can wear what look like dresses, and no they aren't always actually that "feminine" with the "dresses" they can wear. If the Thavnairian sets were kept genderlocked, there may have been a little grumbling, but it would have ultimately have been accepted. The uproar is because females once again received one more set of gear than males did. They obviously have trouble coming up with more designs, so why can't they adapt a similar design to the female exclusive sets only make it more masculine and be exclusive to males to match the unisex "male" gear? This is why we're so vocal about this. Why can't men get a sexy outfit of silks and gold jewelry?

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Originally Posted by Terrini

stuff

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The point is instead of 'adapting a similar design' to something already designed for a gender, they should design something completely intended for males, whether it is released at the same time as something designed for the opposite gender is irrelevant. That is after-all the purpose of gender-specific gear.

You're way too easily offended. My original point with the labeling of gear was to show you can cross dress on a male character if you choose to. Just because the appearances of the items aren't to a T to your liking does not make that statement any less true.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Appeared to only glance over quoted post and ignore the message

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And what do you think will happen when they release 4 new male exclusive sets with no female equivalent, hm? People with female characters will complain and at least one, probably more, will be converted to unisex pronto.

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

And what do you think will happen when they release 4 new male exclusive sets with no female equivalent, hm? People with female characters will complain and at least one, probably more, will be converted to unisex pronto.

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If the goal is to get male designed exclusive sets then you should probably be content with more male exclusive sets..

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Originally Posted by Terrini

That right there is a kick in the face, since the Sailor Shirt was the FIRST exclusive MALE designed gear that was made unisex so females could wear it too. It was released equivalent with the spring set.

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Uh, do you have any evidence of that? I can't believe that the sailor stuff was ever meant as male-only. Sailor style is mainly a girls thing in Japan...

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

arguably the sailor shirt that males can currently cross dress with.

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I have the artbook open on my lap, so I can say for a fact that that gear was designed on a male midlander. The floral hat, too.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I have the artbook open on my lap, so I can say for a fact that that gear was designed on a male midlander.

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How does your artbook confirm anything?

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...0fb8139b3464da

Based on 2.2 release Sailor shirt was always uni-sex and as said earlier. The sailor outfit especially in japan is more of a female look than a male look. So terrini is waaaaay off on that one.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

How does your artbook confirm anything?

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It confirms that it was indeed gear designed for male characters, and is therefore not "crossdressing." Unless you mean to say that the devs intended from the start that males be able to crossdress, thus invalidating any and all arguments insisting the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Based on 2.2 release Sailor shirt was always uni-sex and as said earlier. The sailor outfit especially in japan is more of a female look than a male look. So terrini is waaaaay off on that one.

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Sailor uniforms are a thing, worn by sailors. Especially male sailors.

You talk like everything you know about Japan from anime is 100% the whole unabridged truth, while simultaneously proving you've never seen Card Captor Sakura. Boys have sailor uniforms, too, they just grow out of them faster.

The change to the sailor shirt was made before release based on demand from players with female avatars. This thread, if you'll note the creation date, was likewise made before official release in the hopes of eliciting the same sort of response. It failed, but is kept alive and in eternal tormented stasis like so many Meracydians. Clearly we need to summon a primal.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

It confirms that it was indeed gear designed for male characters, and is therefore not "crossdressing." Unless you mean to say that the devs intended from the start that males be able to crossdress, thus invalidating any and all arguments insisting the contrary.

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It was designed for both hence the reason it was released unisex. Plus you haven't even posted any link nor actual proof.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

stuff

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A sailor suit on a male does not look anything remotely similar to it's design on XIV. Just go to google images. It's a pretty moot discussion at this point considering they obviously look more natural on females.

The sailor top and brais were a male exclusive at first to be opposite the spring dress. In case you forgot the sailor outfit didn't start in Japan as an outfit for schoolgirls, it was something that sailors wore as, y'know, a uniform. But aside from all of that why are you even continuing to post in this thread telling us what we should be asking for? We know what we want (and it's been explained many times in posts here), so why do you persist in rudely telling us what to do? You, Galka, and Hypie are quite welcome to please take your negativity and head off to other threads now. You aren't making new arguments and I'm tired of us having to say the same things over and over and over. I don't want this thread shut down and your unending rudeness and hostility is inspiring others to bristle in response.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

is kept alive and in eternal tormented stasis like so many Meracydians. Clearly we need to summon a primal.

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XDDDD True! Does that make the naysayers the evil Allagans? What would our primal look like?

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

In case you forgot the sailor outfit didn't start in Japan as an outfit for schoolgirls, it was something that sailors wore as, y'know, a uniform.

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There's an obvious context to a design. If they were going for the traditional sailor's outfit instead of the schoolgirl look then it would be made very apparent by the design. But I guess we can remain ignorant of that as well as a number of truths and only post in this thread if we 100% agree with the OP.

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

XDDDD True! Does that make the naysayers the evil Allagans? What would our primal look like?

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Bahamut in a Spring Dress. I'm halfway tempted to draw him myself and make banners.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Bahamut in a Spring Dress. I'm halfway tempted to draw him myself and make banners.

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Well I've seen bahamut with kawaii face meme before in this forum so if you found it just add spring dress on it lol :)

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

There's an obvious context to a design. If they were going for the traditional sailor's outfit instead of the schoolgirl look then it would be made very apparent by the design.But I guess we can remain ignorant of that as well as a number of truths and only post in this thread if we 100% agree with the OP.

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I heard you wanted to talk about context. ^_^
Our wonderful localization and design teams have a habit of bringing us lots of stuff from different cultures, eras, and languages and blending it all together to form a unique style that we identify as Final Fantasy and the spring dress and sailor suit are no different.
The sailor suit being a uniform was brought up because you implied that the source of such dress was Japan. What we got in game is likely derived somewhat from the sailor trend in young boys wear around the 1890s crossed with the actual sailor uniforms:

http://i.imgur.com/QXP0AUv.jpg http://i.imgur.com/m8nVkKf.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Dfm917S.jpg http://i.imgur.com/YbhibfV.jpg

And the female exclusive dress has some inspirations in the walking dresses of girls in seaside ports during the Regency era as well as tea dresses around the turn of the century:

http://i.imgur.com/R1W9FB4.jpg http://i.imgur.com/2FOF39d.jpg http://i.imgur.com/AIQlln2.jpg

So we have something with distinctly masculine originals opposite something with very feminine origins. I'm sorry I'm not seeing how you can instantly decide that while the dress was designed as a female exclusive the (now) unisex outfit with pants and a shirt that isn't at all flattering to the female figure were designed with the intent of being worn by female characters as well as male ones rather than changed last minute by the will of the company.

And as to the matter of being asked to leave if you don't agree. If you bother to go back through the last 70 pages of this thread you'll find that not once have I done so. Actually I haven't told anyone to go elsewhere either until the post you're referring to. I have been careful to let the discussion go where it will (with minimal guiding to ensure we stay on topic) despite the irritation of the naysayers' terrible reasoning against making the outfit available. I said what I did because we're up to 77 pages now and you guys weren't bringing anything to the table that we haven't already discussed and were just aggravating others. I welcome people posting their opinions, even negative ones, but when it gets to the point that you're just rehashing tired arguments we really don't need that.

How do I post those hidden pictures?
(want to share pictures but don't want to spam all the page space :s)
edit: found it :D

https://41.media.tumblr.com/241c4edb...h1e3o1_400.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...cac55f1fe9.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-z0dkAOSYWA...W-HeraBell.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c632dd82e3.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8dbe2257ca.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2df48cc2dd.jpg

http://www.bellydanceshiva.com/body.jpg

http://www.bellydanceshiva.com/back.jpg

http://www.themassivespectacular.com...llery10-49.jpg

http://www.natashareedgallery.com/Ev...Eggers_4-L.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...78fbb97f30.jpg

I am really a fan of him (illan riviere) and saw him a few times performing live

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e8b819d1f5.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...95c002c09b.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...662b8db988.jpg

http://hagalla.de/Webbilder/Illan%20DSC_3201.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8fc89055b4.jpg

https://41.media.tumblr.com/960088e1...da2jo1_500.jpg

This one because reminded me on the OP. We totally need sexy MALE dancer elezen!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a6dbd1f281.jpg

and this because ... Loki <3

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f1b2dd4ab8.jpg

Male dancers share one thing with female dancers ... passion. Regardless what kind of dance so ... what?
I wouldn't wear this on my character ( my friend would and I would love to see his character in it *g* ) but I see NO reason at all this shouldn't be a thing.

Btw perfect villian BLM look :D
Quite cool for AST aswell <.<

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...cb930a026b.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...99eca8dd6c.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0af9ffd425.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2708ef7bd6.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7b8dd576ae.jpg
same person btw :D
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...509139b799.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4bccd79904.jpg

Most of the opinions I see against the implementation of the outfit for males, apart from obvious trolls, seem to be based around modern societal views, and not even from this century. We're not talking about sexuality or morality here, we're talking aesthetics; and while many of you will say that's a matter of opinion, there are certain rules that are inherent of beauty, no matter what kind of taste you have. These outfits NozomiKei has presented follow these set rules, they're beautiful and versatile and would make a great addition to the, sadly, scarce male repertoire of suggestive wardrobe.

A few decades back females weren't allowed to wear pants, or show cleavage, among other things. Now females are free to dress as they choose, FFXIV even reflecting this trend by making most of the supposedly masculine outfits available to them. Do you scream bloody murder for this? No, no you don't, ergo this should be the case for males as well, especially when the real world has precedents of men in this kind of dancing outfit, not to mention precedents of skirts being worn originally by males in past centuries.

And let's not forget the long tradition of male Final Fantasy characters wearing skimpy or sensual clothing; Kuja, Seymour Guado or Mateus Palamecia come to mind.
So really, the fickle ever changing views of society shouldn't even matter for this discussion.