Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW

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Originally Posted by Reslin

It had around the same population as EQ which peeked at around 500,000 subs.

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Check the above graph. EQ spiked around 2k4-2k5 (expansion?) but then drastically fell... probably due to WoW. FFXI stayed at 500k until 2010ish. So sure, they at one point were equal, but on average XI maintained it's population above EQ.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Check the above graph. EQ spiked around 2k4-2k5 (expansion?) but then drastically fell... probably due to WoW. FFXI stayed at 500k until 2010ish. So sure, they at one point were equal, but on average XI maintained it's population above EQ.

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I'm talking about overall peak. EQ fell because of Sony making some very very weird decisions. Removing exploration when that was one of the major focuses in EQ. If left alone as is it would have retained peak for a long time but sony shot themselves in the foot instead. That's why I and all my friends left.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

I'm talking about overall peak. EQ fell because of Sony making some very very weird decisions. Removing exploration when that was one of the major focuses in EQ. If left alone as is it would have retained peak for a long time but sony shot themselves in the foot instead. That's why I and all my friends left.

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Sorry, care to explain? At around 2001 the growth rate slew down, and plummets at 2004. So are you saying if Sony didn't screw up, the growth rate would keep expanding? I'd say WoW had more to do with effecting both MMO's sub rates (even XI fell around that year, WoW was released in 2004), though Sony probably caused the massive decline on EQ. Maybe I am misunderstanding.

Anyway my point wasn't to get into a pissing match between XI and EQ, just that populations of MMOs at the time sat around that size. WoW was an anomaly that I don't think will ever be seen again.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Factually inaccurate, WoW came out in the time when PCs were cheaper and everyone could get one. They also shoved ads at you like no tomorrow. XI had 1 ad (outside Japan), which negates your PS2 because not many people knew about it.

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That makes literally no sense...

So many of these arguments are chasing their own tails. It really comes down to this, FFXIV is successful in the current model it is. If that's WoW, if thats EQ, if thats some amalgamation of all MMOs released to date, it doesnt matter: it works. Quit trying to make it emulate a subpar MMO that has a loyal, but small, fan base. That's what FFXIV 1.0 tried to do and hard failed. Move on, find another game, and dont try and take away from the other fans who out number you, but dont all feel the need to fall on their sword in some forum which doesnt honestly mean a lot.

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Originally Posted by Vandark

lol more abilities than FFXI, perhaps on melle classes but the magic classes in ARR are a flat out joke. Also in the old FF14 you could use way more skills than now, so no I'm not impressed.
I find strategizing alot more appealing than spam so I'm afrade your wrong, there are many reasons why I don't think ARR plays at all like an Final Fantasy game.

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So because we use abilities more often in FFXIV there's suddenly no strategy? What great strategies did FFXI even have compared to FFXIV? There was SC+MB that fell to disuse and SA+TA on to the tank (that also fell into disuse as soon as you reached endgame).

And speaking of magic classes in FFXI having more spells... how many of those you actually used? Because from what I remember about playing WHM, BLM, RDM and SCH, the answer is very few. That's not to say that FFXIV couldn't use more spells and abilities, but that's something that comes with time just like it did in FFXI.

You need to stop looking back at FFXI with rose-tinted glasses.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

looking back at FFXI with rose-tinted glasses.

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uh yeah you are right it wasnt like that a WHM used: Cure 3,4,5, Curaga 1,2,3, Haste, Aquaveil, Blink, Stoneskin, Protectra 5 + Shellra 4/5, Bar-resist spells, Banish/ga,III, Holy, Regen 1,2,3, Raise 1,2,3 or Reraise 1,2,3 or Erase and JA's like Benediction, Divine Seal, Afflatus Solace, Afflatus Misery, Devotion.

or a RDM (which was my main class) Cure 3/4, Haste, Refresh, Protect 4/ Shell 3, Stun, Stoneskin, Phalanx 1/2, Paralyze 1 or 2,Slow 1 or 2, Dia 3, Bio 2/3, Poison 2, Gravity, Dispel, Raise, Level 3 Ele Spells.

or a BLM with Elemental spells Tier 4, Elemental AGA spells Tier 3, Flood/Freeze/Tornado/Flare/Burst/Quake up to Level 2 if mertited, drain, aspir, retrace, stun, sleep/ga 1 / 2

i guess this Magic skills and the numbers of varitation which you also used in the endgame Shows that it beats the XIV ones.

ps.: and you need to stop looking at XIV:ARR with rose-tinted-glasses.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_CB

Having played EQ1 for years and FFXI for years, I’m scratching my head regarding what major innovations FFXI brought to the genre. The only thing that I can think of is the Auction House, which saved players significant amounts of time that would have otherwise been spent farming the old fashioned way.


In fact, many of the arguments used here to complain about how 14 is too “casual friendly” work perfectly when viewing the AH in historical context. I can just see the complaints now…”Real MMO players farm their gear, or buy their gear from another person in the bazaar! The interaction fostered a sense of in game COMMUNITY. The AH just makes the process too easy, and fosters laziness in the player base.”

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Some of the best art & writing the series has seen.

Cross-platform play (PC, PS2/3 and Xbox 360 players all playing together)

Skillchains + Magic Burst

Being able to play 22 different jobs on a single character with absolutely no restrictions, as well as cross-classing a secondary job equal to half your main's level with very little restrictions outside of skill levels.

Cross-regional play with a pretty decent translator (how many Japanese MMOs have you seen that actively encouraged playing with people all around the world and didn't have segregated servers like we do now?)

Endless content to keep you occupied with/wide variety of gear options (up until abyssea anyway)


XI had a lot going for it, and was predicted to dominate the market back when it launched due to the series' popularity in North America. Unfortunately the game was a little too hard/unforgiving in many respects and SE kinda let Blizzard take center stage while Tanaka was ruling with an iron fist. I mean hell look how long it took them just to establish forums for the game. XI was satisfyingly difficult with regards to most of the content, but things like loot & leveling up were too extreme in the early days. The format was fine (grouping with others) but the real innovations like Level Synch & Fields of Valor (not to mention they never awarded EXP for quests which was dumb as all Hell) came far too late.

It's still my personal favorite and IMO the best entry in the entirety of the series despite its many flaws. It's why I'm so deeply saddened that SE chose not to build on that success.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

The problem is, reading it's a thing, executing is another. There's a good reason why nobody use skillchain in ffXI since 10 years now, and it's because they're slow, they do poor damage, they take too much to execute and generally speaking it's much more convenient spamming skill when avaiable because they do more damage. Also, FFXI have a combat system in slow-motion, there's really no way that kind of mechanic could work here. We are no more waiting tp to build before using 1 skill

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That's not true, in the early days of the game when the content was hard we used skillchains with elemental seal magic burst all the time on god fights / notorious monsters. Because that was the best damage possible. Now... No.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

I'm talking about overall peak. EQ fell because of Sony making some very very weird decisions. Removing exploration when that was one of the major focuses in EQ. If left alone as is it would have retained peak for a long time but sony shot themselves in the foot instead. That's why I and all my friends left.

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I was there: EQ plummeted because of Gates of Discord. It was a shove you in the dirt, grind your face off, unforgiving hell-fest that drove away and burned out the largest guilds...even FoH went to WoW... rumor was Furor got a job there... I dunno.

(Edit: This expansion was fairly soon after PoP- which I and many considered the pinnacle of the EQ lore. After that it kind of went off the rails....that only made it even easier to leave.)

FFXI came out after EQ had made that disaster, and I and many people tried it out- FFXI was NOT the same era as EQ- it was years after and EQ had paved the way for it.

WoW came out even after XI... and it was a much more "friendly" game, that attracted a lot of the burn outs from the older games. Sadly, this game was "easier" and attracted people like me because we were "retiring" from the "serious" games. It wasn't the level of easy it is today, but because it was so available across countries and OSs... and had such friendly system requirements.. it was an entry point to gaming for many. These new gamers only knew the "easier" form of gaming and it defined the genre for them. (Burning Crusade Generation)

For those gamers that want to go back to some of the more demanding gaming styles- maybe you have recovered... maybe you never burned out... these are considered antiquated and undesirable systems for many post-WoW gamers.

You will notice, though that there is a lot of nostalgia even in WoW around the Burning Crusade as that is when a huge chunk of players entered the game and had their first MMO experience.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I was there: EQ plummeted because of Gates of Discord. It was a shove you in the dirt, grind your face off, unforgiving hell-fest that drove away and burned out the largest guilds...even FoH went to WoW... rumor was Furor got a job there... I dunno.

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Furor was a famous name due to a lot of items being named after him. It was a little joke during the Vanilla days.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Alex_Afrasiabi

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Originally Posted by Gideon

That makes literally no sense...

So many of these arguments are chasing their own tails. It really comes down to this, FFXIV is successful in the current model it is. If that's WoW, if thats EQ, if thats some amalgamation of all MMOs released to date, it doesnt matter: it works. Quit trying to make it emulate a subpar MMO that has a loyal, but small, fan base. That's what FFXIV 1.0 tried to do and hard failed. Move on, find another game, and dont try and take away from the other fans who out number you, but dont all feel the need to fall on their sword in some forum which doesnt honestly mean a lot.

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You sound afraid. Are you scared Yoshi might hear us out and improve ARR? Afraid to go through what we did and lose your precious game in favor of another you don't like?

Also, as I've said previously popularity does not equal quality, what is more, often is exactly the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Furor was a famous name due to a lot of items being named after him. It was a little joke during the Vanilla days.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Alex_Afrasiabi

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He was famous for being the GL of the top EQ guild... that aside, the best was when a hacker started talking through NPCs. There were npcs like Shady saying Furor was "lactating gravy"... it was pretty hilarious.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

He was famous for being the GL of the top EQ guild... that aside, the best was when a hacker started talking through NPCs. There were npcs like Shady saying Furor was "lactating gravy"... it was pretty hilarious.

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Sorry, I meant famous in WoW. I read up his EQ history a long time ago. It's interesting how much of the original dev team were ex-EQ raiders.

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

You sound afraid. Are you scared Yoshi might hear us out and improve ARR? Afraid to go through what we did and lose your precious game in favor of another you don't like?

Also, as I've said previously popularity does not equal quality, what is more, often is exactly the opposite.

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He also acts like a child hurling insults when things don't go his way. In the same post that he accuses me of "making things up", he does exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

You sound afraid. Are you scared Yoshi might hear us out and improve ARR? Afraid to go through what we did and lose your precious game in favor of another you don't like?

Also, as I've said previously popularity does not equal quality, what is more, often is exactly the opposite.

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Remember, an improvement to one person may not be an improvement to another. This entire thread is about preference based on personal experience, on both sides. I find it kind of silly how vehemently some people argue for their preference while dismissing the others point of view entirely as "wrong" or "stupid". Rather than flame each other why not just post a cohesive comment about exactly what you would like to see then leave it at that?

When you argue here, who are you trying to convince? The other poster, yourself, or the devs? Who do you need to be convincing your idea is good?

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

You sound afraid. Are you scared Yoshi might hear us out and improve ARR? Afraid to go through what we did and lose your precious game in favor of another you don't like?

Also, as I've said previously popularity does not equal quality, what is more, often is exactly the opposite.

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Quite the opposite, if your suggestions were heeded it would diminish the game, and return it to a 1.0-like state (mechanics, not bugs). Which clearly was a massive failure.

lol that was a very hipster comment, im sure tons of games have no population for you to go play.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Sorry, I meant famous in WoW. I read up his EQ history a long time ago. It's interesting how much of the original dev team were ex-EQ raiders.

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Wasn't this because Blizzard employees were huge EQ fans before deciding to do their own MMO? It makes sense to hire as much talent as you can who have the passion you do.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Remember, an improvement to one person may not be an improvement to another. This entire thread is about preference based on personal experience, on both sides. I find it kind of silly how vehemently some people argue for their preference while dismissing the others point of view entirely as "wrong" or "stupid". Rather than flame each other why not just post a cohesive comment about exactly what you would like to see then leave it at that?

When you argue here, who are you trying to convince? The other poster, yourself, or the devs? Who do you need to be convincing your idea is good?

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No one, just stating my opinion for those who care, and may feel better if they know they are not alone in desiring something else with this game.

I've already told the devs enough times my opinions since the 1.0 beta (and I've been in ARR since the alpha), and neither back then nor now with ARR I've seen ANY of my concerns addressed, and this game is no longer one I want to play, still it saddens me see it going in the direction it's taken, and I hope it will become a game I want to play again, and as such, I state what I would pay a subscription for.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

Quite the opposite, if your suggestions were heeded it would diminish the game, and return it to a 1.0-like state (mechanics, not bugs). Which clearly was a massive failure.

lol that was a very hipster comment, im sure tons of games have no population for you to go play.

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I think you are not mature enough to have an adequate discussion, but if you are interested, I quit about a month ago and I'm happily having great fun playing Europa Universalis III, but as I paid for six months, I can still post in the forums until April. Also, I have more fun with the game this way than actually playing it.

This thread has reached max level!

(If we ignore Abyssea)

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Originally Posted by Magis

This thread has reached max level!

(If we ignore Abyssea)

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Or has it? I mean, there hasn't been any Hitler comparisons yet... I think.

I hope reasonable discourse starts soon at least. It's pretty depressing reading the General forums as it stands, seems that everyone considers each other an enemy. :p

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Originally Posted by Raminax

Or has it? I mean, there hasn't been any Hitler comparisons yet... I think.

I hope reasonable discourse starts soon at least. It's pretty depressing reading the General forums as it stands, seems that everyone considers each other an enemy. :p

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People always get up in arms in threads like these. That being said, I think there are quite a few people from FFXI and 1.23 who are justifiably disappointed with the direction ARR took. I know I am. That being said, I don't think it's any reason for people to start attacking each other.

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Originally Posted by Raminax

Or has it? I mean, there hasn't been any Hitler comparisons yet... I think.

I hope reasonable discourse starts soon at least. It's pretty depressing reading the General forums as it stands, seems that everyone considers each other an enemy. :p

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I was making an FFXI joke :(. 75 pages.

I have 20 posts per page, so I'm only halfway there. ;_;

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Originally Posted by Raminax

I have 20 posts per page, so I'm only halfway there. ;_;

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Ah, well that ruins the whole joke lol.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

To me they're fun for the social aspect, and the fact that they take you places where you never really have another reason to go. However, I love your ideas for them. :)

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I've met some of the nicest people I know through treasure maps so I can agree with that :)

I came from Dark Souls to FFXIV, I love alot of the things it does. Though it has its flaws
But more than anything, I'd love to see more assets of the game actually be expanded upon.

- Chocobo Dungeons
- High-level Crafted Gear and more useful consumables
- Set bonuses, non-stat bonuses to gear
- Minigames

Though I miss alot of things from Dark Souls- the secrets, the exploration, the amazingly indepth combat system, gear > skill, and it wasn't afraid to hit you upside the head and steal all yours souls and humanity, all gear in the game being viable- even starting weapons.

There's nothing like exploring a wretched swamp deep underground, going to the centre, finding a seemingly empty tree only to reveal a hidden wall to a treasure chest, then another hidden wall behind that revealing a giant hollow of the tree, and if you manage to get to the bottom without falling, without being falcon punched by Mushroom Moms, without being cursed and having max HP reduced, you're rewarded with one of the most gorgeous maps in the game- beautiful music, a mini-boss, an entirely new covenant, miracle, items.

All hidden away, same with the Painted World of Ariamis- people are still discovering things about Dark Souls to this day.

FFXIV doesn't have that feeling at all sadly.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

The truth of the matter is FFXI wasnt a very popular game by any terms. Its been profitable to Square due to its longevity and loyal fan base. Unfortunately a lot of that loyal fan base has come over the FFXIV expecting the same game and are now some of the "vocal minority" you see on the forums now.

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This. 100% this. FFXI is no longer the game they enjoyed so many years ago and that should tell them something. The gaming world has changed and the game they idolise doesn't want to be what it was anymore. FFXI players were not tossed aside, nor were they kicked to the curb. The game they love is still running, adapt to what it is now or stop playing MMOs altogether.

You know... After reading through 75 pages of this thread. I can say with confidence that FFXIV would of been better off, had the players from FFXI stayed where they were.

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Originally Posted by Ishmachiah

This. 100% this. FFXI is no longer the game they enjoyed so many years ago and that should tell them something.

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That it changed from having a strong hold on a niche market to turning into something almost no one wants?

I love XI but I like XIV too. They're very different flavors why can't one enjoy and appreciate both?

I would love to see something so old school someday again. But XIV has completely other kind of things going for it and I don't think it could be bended to XI without destroying the good essence of this game. In time more games will come don't worry. If the casual aspects aren't your thing you can be sure that same trends come and go. Another XI will surely be built when the current trend goes away.

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Originally Posted by Seif

I love XI but I like XIV too. They're very different flavors why can't one enjoy and appreciate both?

I would love to see something so old school someday again. But XIV has completely other kind of things going for it and I don't think it could be bended to XI without destroying the good essence of this game. In time more games will come don't worry. If the casual aspects aren't your thing you can be sure that same trends come and go. Another XI will surely be built when the current trend goes away.

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What Ive never understood either. Why certain people cant just play a game for what it is, instead of playing and, in some case demanding it change to something else. If it isn't then it's time to find something which does.

We all want to relive the experience of the first MMO we fell in love with. Problem is with your first MMO you are a lot more forgiving of it's flaw as you have no basis on whihch to compare. So in later MMOs many of us ended up looking back with "rose tinted glasses" (for want of a better term.

I try to approach a new MMO as a totally new experience, without trying to compare it to anything I played before.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

No U no U no U...seriously. Bro If your going to call FF14 a wow clone then call every new/modern mmo released a wow clone.

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Dood... they are all WoW clones, that's the problem, we are completely over it, we don't want to play anymore WoW rip offs.
FFXI was a better game IMO because it was completely different to WoW and I dislike WoW.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

FI think something you are not really aware of is that each numbered installment of the Final Fantasy franchise plays differently.

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Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

What Ive never understood either. Why certain people cant just play a game for what it is, instead of playing and, in some case demanding it change to something else.

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I enjoyed FF14 for what it was yet certain people couldn't just play that game, instead they demanded it become WoW.
This is supposed to be a Final Fantasy MMO I expected it to play like one.

Instead we got Final World of Rift Wars Fantasy Craft XIV.

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Originally Posted by Vandark

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Because most people who played 1.0 hated it. I played launch it was a steaming turd that I like most people abandoned like a sinking ship, which it was. I came back near the end played from 1.2 to end and it was a mediocre game at best that needed seriously over hauling still. It's a shame that you and the small number of people who enjoyed 1.2 didn't get the change you wanted, but most others got something they enjoy more than they enjoyed 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Amiantos

Because most people who played 1.0 hated it. I played launch it was a steaming turd that I like most people abandoned like a sinking ship, which it was. I came back near the end played from 1.2 to end and it was a mediocre game at best that needed seriously over hauling still. It's a shame that you and the small number of people who enjoyed 1.2 didn't get the change you wanted, but most others got something they enjoy more than they enjoyed 1.0.

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There is plenty Square Enix could have done to save that game, the game still had massive amounts of potential, even if they did want to over hawl the game I don't believe it would have been impossible to keep the playing style. Instead of doing what they do best they just took the cheap easy way out, sad to say but all I see is a quick fix to get a quick buck.

I'm shocked that SE have so much difficulty coming up with ideas these days. It's almost like they don't even know there own product anymore.

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Originally Posted by Vandark

I see is a quick fix to get a quick buck.

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I wouldn't go that far, as they did invest millions into remaking it. However, I do think a lot of their design decisions have been very short sighted. Most content seems to be neglected in favor of the boss/raid route.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I wouldn't go that far, as they did invest millions into remaking it. However, I do think a lot of their design decisions have been very short sighted. Most content seems to be neglected in favor of the boss/raid route.

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They even admitted they took short cuts to save money, they had such an extreme dead line to meet.

Lets face it, they remade a game that took 7 years to make ARR in one year.

Yes they reused much of the same materials yet much of the heart and soul put into the game was lost in the process.

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Originally Posted by Vandark

There is plenty Square Enix could have done to save that game, the game still had massive amounts of potential, even if they did want to over hawl the game I don't believe it would have been impossible to keep the playing style. Instead of doing what they do best they just took the cheap easy way out, sad to say but all I see is a quick fix to get a quick buck.

I'm shocked that SE have so much difficulty coming up with ideas these days. It's almost like they don't even know there own product anymore.

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Engine for one needed a complete reworking as it was the result of the whole copy and pasted environment and even high end PC's hated it due to poor optimization.
SE suffers from being a big name game maker and publisher, much like every other AAA game maker is these days. Their bread winner titles are no longer viable sources and they can't let go of this.

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Originally Posted by ufufu

This again? FFXI sucked, let's move past it.

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Yea it sucks so much it is still active and producing expansions. EQ and FFXI have stayed around longer than WoW has been around. You know why? Because people quit FFXI/EQ to try WoW. Hit level cap by spamming solo quests and realize "well now theres nothing to do but solo rep grinds and sit in town until raids and shit.. All that soloing from 1-cap I didn't actually get the chance to interact with people and find non idiots to raid with"

Though WoW did a great job of solving that last one by introducing the fantastic system that is LFR. Can't learn how to play a game? Don't worry they will dumb it down so much that a caveman can do it!

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Can't learn how to play a game? Don't worry they will dumb it down so much that a caveman can do it!

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Sounds about as fun as watching fire burn or a wheel role around.. oh wait... cave men find that fun.. hmmm interesting, I see where your going with this.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

That it changed from having a strong hold on a niche market to turning into something almost no one wants?

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(My post here isn't pointed towards you, just using it as a basis for discussion.)

It is fine and dandy if players do not enjoy ARR's direction, but I see a lot in this thread that people wanted FFXIV to be their answer to a new game because FFXI has made some questionable decisions. What I ask is, why are people trying so hard to change the foundation of a successful game when you would have a much better shot by jumping into the FFXI forums and convincing developers you want the older style of play back? It makes sense, FFXI I don't think is exactly gaining many subscribers and it is held together by it's long time fan base. I don't know how SE thinks, but under common sense, you should be catering to the small fanbase they have left of the game, who are mostly veterans of the game.

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Originally Posted by Vandark

Dood... they are all WoW clones, that's the problem, we are completely over it, we don't want to play anymore WoW rip offs.
FFXI was a better game IMO because it was completely different to WoW and I dislike WoW.

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So just because it is different, automatically makes it a better game? Okay.

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Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

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http://i.imgur.com/WfPHCmq.gif

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Instead we got Final World of Rift Wars Fantasy Craft XIV.

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Cute name. Funny you expect developers to be completely original in design. With FFXI players, you put up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation". Where if this game based itself directly from FFXI's style, people would scream "FFXI clone". You make an MMO that does meet modern day standards, you scream "WoW clone". Which leads me to a fair conclusion that people don't know what they want, all they know is what they don't want.

Every day I log into the game i see FATE groups going strong, Dungeons with less than 15 min queue times (thats for DPS), crafters everywhere, I'm part of a large FC that is constantly active, and the game "seems" to be thriving, at least from everything I can see. This does not have the appearance of a game that is dying or needs saving. I don't feel like the game is dying at all. What I see is excitement for the new stuff they have added and anticipation for the upcoming additions.

Until I log into the forums. Then I see the same few people railing constantly against this game. Once in a while a new one joins in the ranks over a particular topic, but people who truly dont like this game DON'T come to the forums and DON'T play the game and DON'T feel the need to come here and make a scene day after day.

They just need open world content instead of this crap instances modern MMO spewing out. FFXI was different because not everything was instances, in fact it had about 50% open world and 50% instance.

FATEs and Leves are poor open world contents, this gaming having Final Fantasy in its title is a disgrace.