I wrote up quite a bit about how stats could work, then deleted it, because the idea wasn't thought to the end. However, one main gripe stands: dLVL should play no role in damage formulas. Currently, it's the main factor, but IMO, this should be abolished.
Reasoning: Character level already determined base attributes and their derived stats. Mobs could also just use their stats.
Let's say a lvl 1 fighter has 10 str and 15 attack, and a lvl 5 mage has the exact same stats. Both are using a weapon with the same base damage. Both whacking on the same mob should do exactly the same average damage.
When the same fighter dinged twice, maybe he now has 20 str and 30 attack and maybe does twice the damage when whacking at the same mob, still using the original weapon.
A system like that would just make sense.
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08-24-2012, 11:36 PMfussel
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08-24-2012, 11:39 PMJennestiaIt's a concept called diminishing returns. In FFXIV currently that concept doesn't fully exist for the sole purpose that you need a large amount of +stat to even feel a tickle in your performance increase let alone a large boost -- making base stat and allocation matter more than melded gear alone makes it easier (if done right) to increase performance all the while adding materia to pad that increase -- however adding too much will not benefit you if you go overboard so a 5 meld won't be as powerful as it is now because in ARR the calculations are being changed to where it won't have a huge impact but rather a supplemental effect as it should have been from the get go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
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08-24-2012, 11:43 PMOnisakeThere's one fundamental problem with this: that means gear (IE: stats) mean everything. it becomes a gear race.Quote:
Originally Posted by fussel
dLVL is a double edged sword. the formula needs some balancing, but with dLVL being primary variable it means you can make positioning/execution more important in hard fights than stats.
it may seem like a cheap tactic to some, but it's a fairly simple way of handling this issue. it also means if level cap content is ever introduced you can keep the difficulty level 'as intended' because stats do not matter as much as skill.
IMO, i wouldn't mind if stats were completely abolished. and gear just had 'enhances X ability' on it or 'enhances auto attack' or 'enhances defense against physical/magical attacks' -
08-25-2012, 12:25 AMfusselUhm. What? I didn't write anything about gear in my example. How important gear would be would solely depend on how large stat bonuses on gear are compared to level-dependent base stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onisake
e.g. let's say you have 100 base STR as a naked lvl 50 fighter. If a full set of obtainable gear would result in STR+10, it's a completely different situation than if a full set would result in STR+200. -
08-25-2012, 12:37 AMRogueI dont see the problem in having a certain level of gear required to be able to participate in any given content, for example- an endgame fight can still be difficult and require skill even with the best gear in the game...Quote:
Originally Posted by Onisake
Many modern MMO's have gear tiers and often a certain tier of gear is required to participate in content, this way people can get nice upgrades in gear without breaking the game.
Fundamentally, you cannot ballance content for people with crappy gear AND great gear if you want the great gear to mean anything. that much is common sense at least.
for this reason to have a mechanism that makes the effect of gear and stats less noticeable is ludicrous.. why have stats in first place!?!
even with your proposal its logical to think that anything gear gives would only serve to give an advantage so why would that be any different?
so in short i dont consider your problem a problem at all. -
08-25-2012, 03:40 AMOnisakedoesn't matter. if the maximum number of STR you can get is +10, and STR is the main determining factor, then everyone will be trying to get that +10 STR. if the maximum you can get is +200, same thing will happen. but then +183 will be roughly equal to +188. but +9 will be very very different than +8.Quote:
Originally Posted by fussel
Either way, Dlvl does balance the field a little as far as how good you need to be geared. you didn't directly say this, but it is implied.
but where do you draw the line? how good of gear do you need to have before you can reliable finish content? at what point does gear compensate for skill? etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
As an example, I mained PLD in ffxi. when doing sky, when i first started. I pretty much had to use invincible when taking Seiryu for hundred fists. otherwise i would die. the fight was doable. and bit of a challenge.
once I was fully geared i was near the absolutely maximum for shield skill. at this point i barely needed sentinel to tank him. the fight was easy to the point of tedium.
The game is about being fun. you balance the game for people with above average gear. great gear makes it easier (can compensate for lack of skill) and if you have subpar gear you can still have a chance if you are highly skilled. gear be part of the tolerance. content shoudl be balanced around gate-way gear. IE: around AF. if you are skilled you should be able to do all content with AF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
Vanity. increase the tolerance in the number of mistakes you can make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
it's about execution and player choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
a stats based progression tied to rails. all DDs build the same way. all tanks build the same way. there is a specific way to optimize etc. etc. all of the best builds in the game look the same.
a system that allowed enhancement not tied to stats fundamentally works in a different way. IE: if i'm a DD i can focus on ability damage (get only gear that enhances my attack abilities) or i can focus on sustained auto attack damage (get gear that enhances my auto attacks) or I can look for a combination of both. I can look at crit gear. etc. etc. etc. the base line is the same for all builds, so it's easier branch from it.
what we have now is we all try to hit stat caps, and then if we have enough room in our gear we can add in crit etc. to further increase our damage.
From the other side, a tank can be a defense/HP tank. an evasion/parry/block tank. etc.
what we have now, is the tanks go for stat caps, and then look for additional defensive stats where they can fit them.
and it's not really a 'problem' so much as its too simple imo. id' rather see lots of customization. -
08-28-2012, 04:37 PMfusselOf course it does matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onisake
If you can reach a max STR 110 with gear, and are running around naked with STR 100, you still have 90% of the max STR value. That means, you can probably play quite fine without having any gear at all. If STR would be the determining factor in damage, it's just 90 instead of 100 damage. Wooh. Need 11 hits instead of ten.
Hoever, if the maximum achievable STR with gear is 300 and you're running around naked with STR 100, you only have 33% of the STR as a geared player. Again, if STR would be the determining factor in damage, you now would only do 33 instead of 100 damage. Need 30 hits instead of 10 now, seriously gimped.