Character Creation Has A Race Problem

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Originally Posted by Nandina

https://i.imgur.com/sFfpBqQ.png

How am I trolling again? I knew someone would attempt to say that, which is why I screenshot it.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Well aren't you rude. I was just poking in jest, but ya really gotta insinuate we're stupid and you're not.

Most people are on board with wanting more natural and wavy hair. That would be really nice. Almost all of my characters are black and I would kill for some curls to go with them. But, you made it into some sort of weird pseudo-race war thing. That's where you've lost people, including myself.

Don't get pissy when a single fictional race in a fictional world doesn't conform to real life. You can make beautiful dark skinned people from almost all the races in this game. Different faces have different structures, just like there is one Miqo'te face that has full lips that is very nice. If you wanna cry about diversity, try not being a pasty white moon cat and play in character creation a little longer.

Edit :

Something I whipped up in character creation in about 5 minutes to prove a point. She's very nice and I actually might use this face set up for a future character.

https://i.imgur.com/NxZWQbq.jpg

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So again, I quoted the same post, lmao.

https://i.imgur.com/rSV6leX.png

Why on earth does it STILL matter whether you have to be black or white to want greater customization choices in the character creator, even if it's just soley for Hyurs. Seriously, what does being either one have anything to do with the character creation? Why couldn't the TC simply just say "I want more of this" without continuously pointing out their skin color in almost every single post that they make?

There's literally no other reason to be drawing attention to yourself like that and then to just keep saying "this isn't me turning this into a race problem", when you keep circling the drain and using your own skin color to back up your arguments. If anyone has to mention their own race or nationality to make a point as to why XIV doesn't have it and that they're being under-represented personally, then yes, you just turned something as simple as "I would like more diverse hairstyles and skin tones from other cultural backgrounds and just in general, please" into a race problem.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

You all are hyper sensitive and stuck on the word race

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Not really, there's a very good reason to be "hyper sensitive" about it. What OP describing: hairstyles, nose, skin tones, facial features. The term for that is ethnicity, not race. The races are hyur, elezen, miqote, au ra, roegadyn, lalafell. The only single racial attribute on each race: tails, ears, muscles. That's it. Everyone don't have a problem with more ethnic features, everyone will have a problem with more racial features because it's the one thing that makes them unique (Tails/Ears/Muscles).

OP is simple example of what every culture-invariant company like SE dreads, people who don't know the difference between race and culture/ethnic. Is it reason to limit character creation? No. People can be educated properly, SE just have to make that distinction clear.

Don't take it personally but I understand where SE stands or why they did this limitation. SE as japanese/asian company, I also live in a country with distinct 600+ tribe cultures, not just few like in US. If any single culture claims to be in higher place than any other or in a gaming platform were to given special treatment permanently, there would be riots. All this could have been avoided with simple "I want more African-American culture featured in character creation". Certainly that would be received more welcomed, and yes I do think they need it too.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Why on earth does it STILL matter whether you have to be black or white to want greater customization choices in the character creator, even if it's just soley for Hyurs. Seriously, what does being either one have anything to do with the character creation? Why couldn't the TC simply just say "I want more of this" without continuously pointing out their skin color in almost every single post that they make?

There's literally no other reason to be drawing attention to yourself like that and then to just keep saying "this isn't me turning this into a race problem", when you keep circling the drain and using your own skin color to back up your arguments. If anyone has to mention their own race or nationality to make a point as to why XIV doesn't have it and that they're being under-represented personally, then yes, you just turned something as simple as "I would like more diverse hairstyles and skin tones from other cultural backgrounds, please" into a race problem.

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Anyone is welcome to ask for more options if they desire for any race of their choosing the same way I asked for more for Hyurs. I didn't point out my specific skin color, I used other skin colors as an example to highlight what I meant by undertone. I used those shade ranges with the makeup example because it showcased what I meant by brown skin with a yellow undertone. And like I said previously, I used real life examples to showcase what I meant, because saying diverse hairstyles and skin tones isn't specific. We asked for diverse hairstyles for a while now and they give us different styles for straight instead.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

4. You changed your post to quote my screenshot post once you were called out for ignoring me. I see you and I know other people do too.

You are troll and/or purposefully inflammatory. I was giving it the benefit of the doubt because I have genuinely known people like you in real life, but quote editing sealed the deal. Anyone else can talk to me about the issues since I think the representation of minorities in video games is a fascinating topic that deserves to be discussed (wrote many an essay on the portrayal of women and ethnic minorities in horror/video games), but not particularly interested in someone who cherry picks. Goodbye.

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Playing victim I see. You can only post but so much at one time, therefor I have to go back and edit my posts to attempt to address everyone because you only get to post but so much in a day. Just because you weren't addressed when you wanted to be, doesn't mean I was ignoring you. You posting that picture didn't address the problem.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

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I'm still playing the game because I still like the game, as I said before. While you may personally have a black and white absolutionist mentality wherein no one can ever continue to enjoy things they have a problem with, I'm able to separate "things I enjoy" and "things that aren't so great" in my head. It's quite easy, really, and much more rewarding than blindly defending things without a second thought OR instantly damning everything even slightly problematic as evil.

I also never said the racism was overt, just worthy of discussion at the least. But thank you for putting words in my mouth in a poor attempt to strawman me.

Also, people being hesitant to post criticism on a forum where people will go out of their way to troll or dismiss them isn't a deflection. Surprisingly, when people want to talk about things that bother them, most of the time they don't appreciate being trolled or screamed at. Sure, that doesn't mean they shouldn't expect people who disagree with them, but the hesitation is perfectly understandable when you look at some* of the harsher reactions here.

*Notice that I say "some" and not "all" here, since you have a tendency for hyperbole and intentionally misreading things.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

When I say justifying SE’s decisions, I’m not talking about just this thread alone, which is why I made sure to say the forum. Again, it can be THEIR game but I have the right to criticize like everyone else when I’m spending MY money whether you like it or not, or am I only allowed to criticize aspects of the game the community deems acceptable, in a very specific way? But I can’t help but notice you are doing just that, justifying that SE can do what it wants because it’s their game, which is an easy cop out. While I agree with that, the people using the weak “this is fantasy and not real life” tried better than that. Your response doesn’t add to the discussion at all.

If people are being manipulative and gaslighting, and claiming that I’m saying the game is racist, which was never the argument; or that I want a character that looks exactly like me, which again was never the argument, then I’m going to go in and let have. I’m not going to keep clarifying the same point a hundred times. I’m not about to sit around and let people put words in my mouth. I’m not going to let people claim that I’m trying to start a race war, when I’m not. Notice I haven’t been short-tempered with you or other people, just certain individuals because they kept deflecting. Everyone who is a member of this forum could use those same petty tactics against me, and I’m still not backing down.

It doesn’t matter if me insulting a select few people cheapens my argument against them, because their comments largely were irrelevant. Claiming I’m crying racism when I wasn’t cheapens their arguments. You have Vidu who doesn’t really care about the topic and has admitted it themselves, but yet chooses to vehemently comment. You have others mentioning Roegadyn, Au’Ra, and Miqo’te as if they have a point when the discussion is Hyurs. I wouldn’t discuss carpentry when everyone else is talking about sewing, and I wouldn’t say that the wooden tables available come in a brown hue when someone mentions that their thread doesn’t have that same color available.

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You cried racism when you put that the game has a "race problem" in the title of this post and whined about diversity and representation. Stating that SE can do whatever they want because it's their game isn't a cop-out, it's the truth. You can complain and criticize things on here all you want it doesn't change anything if they don't implement it. Do you think you're the only one on here (and by that I also mean this entire forum not just this post) who has something they've wanted to see and never got? Everybody pays a subscription, not just you, so why can't we get the things we want too huh? You keep claiming that the community controls the content around here when we're largely ignored. I could go on, but you'll most likely ignore it since apparently nobody is allowed to disagree with you over anything.

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Originally Posted by Joven

I've said this before earlier in this post: works of fiction do not need to diverse or represent anyone, respectfully or otherwise. it's solely at the descretion of the creator. I don't say this as someone who's white, I say this as someone who doesn't feel like I need to be "represented" in anything. If this game only had characters who were of African decent, if all characters were female or completely non-human I'd still play it as long as it looked interesting. My identity isn't my skin color or facial features.

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Interesting tale bud, but not everyone feels that way. If you don't want more diverse representation because it doesn't effect you in any way, then you don't have to talk about it or advocate it in any way.

For a lot of people, they HAVE to play as the default white dude in games. They HAVE to play as something that isn't like them because it's the only option available. Even when there IS customization available, the options are usually still pretty limited.

Also, you're right; creators don't have to try and respectfully represent people when they create something. Fans of that creation still have every right to criticize it, point out the lack of diversity, and how that may frustrate them, however.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

Anyone is welcome to ask for more options if they desire for any race of their choosing the same way I asked for more for Hyurs. I didn't point out my specific skin color, I used other skin colors as an example to highlight what I meant by undertone.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

So you mean to tell me that my black and brown friends are good enough to receive a subscription from, but not good enough to have the character creation cater to them as well? I'm biracial (black mom, Russian dad) and while I'm not dark skinned I don't have thin lips and sharp facial features.

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^^^ That is literally part of your opening paragraph to the thread.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

I’m on the lighter spectrum of skin color, but I have a yellow undertone that I couldn’t find in the creator. I’m criticizing cause I pay a sub.

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There's #2.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

A lot of black and brown gamers don't even speak up because of backlash like this, but I don't mind being the martyr, cause everybody can catch this virtual hands, lmao. Let's go.

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Not EXACTLY saying, but hey, you're kind of hinting that you're using your own ethnicity to fuel this crusade. so, #2.5

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Originally Posted by Nandina

Like I can go dark, very dark actually, but I can’t really be in the middle. When I went very dark, there was still only either red tones or blue tones; no yellow or olive, which I’m pretty certain is why the skin looks funny. Like in real life, if I put a foundation on that matches my skin color, but has the wrong undertone, it looks funny. There too many duplicates of the same color and undertone.

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#3, only stressing this one because it coincides with your statement in the opening paragraph.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

But when people question it, you’re saying that to get the experience we want, black people have to be hulking beasts. Yes I say beasts, cause there’s nothing human about a Roegadyn or any of the other races. Sure they may be humanoid, but they aren’t human. As for the highlanders, I don’t want to look like a weight lifter, and many other black girls don’t either. What if a black or brown boy wants be toned and slim and not massive and aggressive looking, but doesn’t want to be an Elezen or Miqo’te (which doesn’t have his features anyway)?

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#4, not stated explicitly, but using the other quotes as a reference, we get the picture.

But, I mean, there's everything plain in writing mostly.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

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A race war? Who even said that yo...

You know what, yup, I'm done with this thread. You're using the term 'gaslighting' incorrectly, by the by. But yeah, I'm out of this thread - not worth continuing this argument anymore.