More Horizontal Progression please

Are threads like this ever going to get a dev response? Remember when we used to get replies on things that matter in the game instead of test errors and glamours? :(

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Just to clarify, you're saying that under your concept of Horizontal Progression, every alternative is completely viable in all situations, but any particular item may have a slight advantage in certain situations. Is that correct?

Would you be able to quantify at what point that slight advantage becomes too much and now that piece of gear is necessary for that certain scenario? Is that a 1% advantage? 5%? 10%? Once an item goes beyond that margin, is it now vertical progression? And is it vertical progression just for that particular slot, and horizontal progression in other slots if they're still below that margin?

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If the item improves your character by 10%, and one improves it by 11-13% in certain situations its still a 11-12% update to that encounter. The procs in EQ for example were very powerful but there was enough choice that one wasn't "too" powerful over another in the same situation, but they all gave your character a great deal of power. It was just choice.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Not the way I read it. You might want to double check before continuing your argument.

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I see you ignored my question asking which game was this.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

if the next fight inline requires the Ice piece, that's horizontal. vertical and horizontal is not directly related to homogenization. you're trying to conflate two different issues. having BiS for a single fight doesn't make something not horizontal.

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Actually, that is vertical. Vertical means there is one best choice. Its a straight upgrade to a fight and an encounter. There is only one real choice if your fighting an ice creature you need ice armor. If your wearing fire armor you have no ice resist so you get melted. There is no other choice for you. That is bad. That is homogenizing and exactly what vertical progression does, there is no difference.

In a Horizontal System: There is no "Ice Resist" or "Fire Resist" or "Accuracy" or "Critical Mitigation".

Instead of Ice Resist there is "Magic Resistance.". Higher "Magic Resistance" helps against both things. However, one piece has a little more "Magic Resistance" then the other. The one that has less armor has more DPS. However, there are many variants. However, you can still do the boss in any piece of armor. That is play-style choice.

Instead of "Resists and such" there are procs and effects. Each effect is "good" however there is no best effect. You choose the effect based on your own playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

FFXI's model isn't perfect, as others have pointed out, yet FFXI's model is much better at maintaining a symbiotic relationship between expansion material than WoW's model. WoW broke its old content beyond repair, yet FFXI's content has remained far less damaged by time. While Path of Exile is a slightly different genre, it's recent expansion, PoE:Awakening, follows a design philosophy that is far more benign than the philosophy used to produce Heavensward. I think they could learn a thing or two from how GGG chose to do their expansion.

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I really don't think FFXIV and WoW can be compared as far as time goes. WoW is 10 years old, FFXIV 2 years i think. Already ive read forums and people complaining that content (including me in some various opinions) that old content is well old already. That we want things fixed from what they are. Then we have people saying no way we don't want to re run old content leave it be. WoW has had plenty of time to break their old content, while FFXIV is already showing signs of "Old content is Bleh". Just my opinion on what i read on the fourms.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Instead of Ice Resist there is "Magic Resistance.". Higher "Magic Resistance" helps against both things. However, one piece has a little more "Magic Resistance" then the other. The one that has less armor has more DPS. However, there are many variants. However, you can still do the boss in any piece of armor. That is play-style choice.

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you're just wrong. a little more magic resistance in a magic damage heavy fight means the piece with magic resistance piece is much more important.

again, you're talking about two different things and you are wrong to combine them into one.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you're just wrong. a little more magic resistance in a magic damage heavy fight means the piece with magic resistance piece is much more important.

again, you're talking about two different things and you are wrong to combine them into one.

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That depends. What if the other piece has a ward proc on it that makes up for having less magic resistance?

I can now tell you've never played a real horizontal progression game.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Are threads like this ever going to get a dev response? Remember when we used to get replies on things that matter in the game instead of test errors and glamours? :(

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nope we have no rapport with se at all sadly.

they do not reply, suggestions are NOT forwarded, in game suggestions is as bad as talking to oneself.
when the game does dwindle..(and it will) it will not be from lack of us trying...but from no interaction from them.

i hope i am wrong, it has such potential but so far im not impressed by the developers nor CM input at all.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Just to clarify, you're saying that under your concept of Horizontal Progression, every alternative is completely viable in all situations, but any particular item may have a slight advantage in certain situations. Is that correct?

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Vertical progression means you replace every piece of gear periodically (every other major patch in FFXIV). Horizontal means old gear remains viable in new content, and can be replaced by new gear.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

That depends. What if the other piece has a ward proc on it that makes up for having less magic resistance?

I can now tell you've never played a real horizontal progression game.

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so it has a ward to make up for less magic resistance and has more DPS? why would anyone use the piece that has lower DPS and just magic resistance?

there's no "real" horizontal progression game, there are many different ways to do horizontal progression. you're stuck on horizontal means absolutely no BiS which is not true.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Vertical progression means you replace every piece of gear periodically (every other major patch in FFXIV). Horizontal means old gear remains viable in new content, and can be replaced by new gear.

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Like a piece of Jewelry with a valuable effect. Even with less stats its effect is still powerful enough to keep.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

so it has a ward to make up for less magic resistance and has more DPS? why would anyone use the piece that has lower DPS and just magic resistance?

there's no "real" horizontal progression game, there are many different ways to do horizontal progression. you're stuck on horizontal means absolutely no BiS which is not true.

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Maybe that is their play-style. Maybe they would rather absorb the damage straight up instead of relying on a proc to do it for you. Maybe they want a offensive proc effect instead of a defensive one. There are many reasons. Have you played Diablo before? Everquest? Everquest 2?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Vertical progression means you replace every piece of gear periodically (every other major patch in FFXIV). Horizontal means old gear remains viable in new content, and can be replaced by new gear.

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I'm trying to get Nektulos-Tuor to explain his definition of it, since he's only providing very nebulous, sometimes contradictory statements, like:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If the item improves your character by 10%, and one improves it by 11-13% in certain situations its still a 11-12% update to that encounter. The procs in EQ for example were very powerful but there was enough choice that one wasn't "too" powerful over another in the same situation, but they all gave your character a great deal of power.

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versus

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Vertical means there is one best choice.

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According to the first quote, one best choice was horizontal, as long as it "wasn't too powerful over another in the same situation". According to the second quote, from the same post, one best choice was vertical.

I was hoping he could quantify where the line for "too powerful" is.

Nektulos-Tuor:

If, on fight 1, item A is +1%, item B is +3%, and item C is +2%, but on fight 2, item A is +7%, item B is +3%, and item C is +4%, I assume you'd say that's horizontal.

If everything else was kept the same, but on fight 1, item A was +40%, and on fight 2, item B was +50%, I assume you'd say that's vertical? (Even though everyone else seems to agree that's still horizontal.)

How about if on fight 1, item A was +10%, and on fight 2, item B was +12%? Or 18% and 14%? At what point does the switch flip that makes it go from horizontal to vertical, in your definitions?