What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Aline_D

The only one who knew about Dynamis, much less use it, was Hermes, which is a terrible warning as he ended up doing a "universe"-ending mistake as he didn't realize how strong Dynamis can be.

And it is irrelevant since if he knew what was really going on, he would try to sabotage any attempt to stop Meteion as he did before the memory wipe.

And "surely they would think of something" is meaningless, unless you have a specific example to give.


And finally even if they somehow managed to stop Meteion, we (and Venat) knows they were bound to be destroyed either by misuse of their power or by losing the will to live like all other civilisations.

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The problem is that Elidibus admits that the Convocation's understanding of the Final Days "was the same as our own", which means that whatever information Hermes provided to them was...non-essential. He wasn't even able to pin down dynamis as its cause.

He is not going to be sabotaging anything if the Convocation was aware of his behavior, and they were apparently already accounting for dissidents like him considering that they had a bureau of justice (Which Emet-Selch actually mentions that he might have to get involved when he first hears about Kairos due to recognizing the potential threat it posed).

And yes, they may have hypothetically run into/created other threats that would've ended them, but by all accounts, they had already kept things together for a long, long time, and considering how easily both the Nibirun and Ea were convinced that life was still worth living by the end of the Omicron quests...I don't think a race of intellectuals like them is ever going to collectively agree that erasing themselves from existence is the best course of action.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

They never would have found Meteion or gotten her report without our help.

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Would they even have been in the same area we found them in when she went crazy? Just us meeting them altered how events went.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Would they even have been in the same area we found them in when she went crazy? Just us meeting them altered how events went.

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It's time travel m8, at this point it's a just a nice way for the new writers to have wiggle room for what they want while hand-waving the older "baggage". They can either address it or go "lol, alternate timeline" and just drop the 1.0/ARR story.

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Originally Posted by Aline_D

Zodiark was just a name they drop once or twice, how did he "deserve better?"

>friendship is magic is a tired trope,

Ahh so this is a troll post. Else I have no idea why you are suffering to play a Final Fantasy game where friendship is pretty much *always* the magic. Maybe go play COD or GTA where everyone is an edgy as**le?

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Zodiark was portrayed as the god the Ascians (The main bad guy up to ShB) and the antithesis of Hydeline. We legit just killed him like he was another random Primordial. The lore they added on him in EW don't change the fact that his whole build-up ended up being a let down.

I played other FF game and we never get ''friendship is magic'' trope. At worst they mention it and say it what make them push their limits. in EW it litteraly the solution to stop the end of the world. Even FF5 who's got a kid cartoon tier of writting didn't pull this one out.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Zodiark was portrayed as the god the Ascians (The main bad guy up to ShB) and the antithesis of Hydeline. We legit just killed him like he was another random Primordial. The lore they added on him in EW don't change the fact that his whole build-up ended up being a let down.

I played other FF game and we never get ''friendship is magic'' trope. At worst they mention it and say it what make them push their limits. in EW it litteraly the solution to stop the end of the world. Even FF5 who's got a kid cartoon tier of writting didn't pull this one out.

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Thank god there are so many great writers in the xiv forum that can tell the current xiv scrub writers how to improve their writing. I am sure now everything will go exactly as they hoped. I am sure all the bitching and whining in the world will change things. One day when you wake up and join reality you will realize the absurdity of it all. The most comical part is half of the assertions about the story are factually incorrect. I guess they skipped those cutscenes and then formed their "opinion".

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Thank god there are so many great writers in the xiv forum that can tell the current xiv scrub writers how to improve their writing. I am sure now everything will go exactly as they hoped. I am sure all the bitching and whining in the world will change things. One day when you wake up and join reality you will realize the absurdity of it all. The most comical part is half of the assertions about the story are factually incorrect. I guess they skipped those cutscenes and then formed their "opinion".

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Interesting. Please do enlighten us, what common assertion about the story (made by those disappointed by it) is factually incorrect?

I'd love to see them elaborate on what is "factually incorrect", but considering that they've never done so during any of past tirades in this thread, I'm not counting on it.

Easier to just keep hissing about how we're wrong, our opinions don't matter, game is perfect, etc, etc without actually trying to back it up.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Thank god there are so many great writers in the xiv forum that can tell the current xiv scrub writers how to improve their writing. I am sure now everything will go exactly as they hoped. I am sure all the bitching and whining in the world will change things. One day when you wake up and join reality you will realize the absurdity of it all. The most comical part is half of the assertions about the story are factually incorrect. I guess they skipped those cutscenes and then formed their "opinion".

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Ok boomer.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Thank god there are so many great writers in the xiv forum that can tell the current xiv scrub writers how to improve their writing. I am sure now everything will go exactly as they hoped. I am sure all the bitching and whining in the world will change things. One day when you wake up and join reality you will realize the absurdity of it all. The most comical part is half of the assertions about the story are factually incorrect. I guess they skipped those cutscenes and then formed their "opinion".

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This is wrong. Guild use the famous fic writer like the Ayybeyond to rewriting the story. The guild writer team who work hard have two job at the burger king while writing story from heart. Unlike game writer who live on the Yoshi island and is only writer because game saying so. Story it is bad because all main chara not die and replace by the chara we wanting. There is new german translate script that is made on forum and is have many like and subscribe by the guild. If you read general disgust forum you will know. Is only way to stop the Hildabrandt relic from destroy the game.

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Originally Posted by Tariq

Emet-Selch literally invented fascism, therefore anyone who has Emet-Selch as their favorite character must either be a fascist themselves or a braindead fujoshi who thinks he did nothing wrong because OMG he's so hot teehee.

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We do not agree with the point. All the chara on forum are afraid of support the No Shadow God or the Garlemalding because it look like the facist or the eugene and the Solus King talk always about use the darwin to making the mustard race. Is why guild can not grow. Is ok to support the view in the game only. But game is not the life. So is not mean guild doing the duckstep and right turn just because always posting about the traditional masculine ariana race.

As entertaining as the poster above me is, my suggestion to anyone on this thread who wants to actually have a good faith discussion is to block Graeham, it is obvious by the way he writes he is not arguing in good faith. I am going to.,

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

As entertaining as the poster above me is, my suggestion to anyone on this thread who wants to actually have a good faith discussion is to block Graeham, it is obvious by the way he writes he is not arguing in good faith. I am going to.,

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I have yet to be able to comprehend their posts.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I have yet to be able to comprehend their posts.

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That is intentional, as his aim is to drown out any discussion that is had in good faith out with his inane trolling. The whole thread is a lot cleaner without his stupid, unintelligible commentary.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Hissing.

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I have never seen someone so angy over a thread they could just ignore.

Just walk away from the computer or close your eyes or something lmao, it's not that deep.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

I have never seen someone so angy over a thread they could just ignore.

Just walk away from the computer or close your eyes or something lmao, it's not that deep.

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This is what I did with this thread for the most time but the last few pages are comedy.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

it's not that deep.

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This should sum up all the conversations about the story. Don't overthink it too much (waaay too late for that lol).

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

This should sum up all the conversations about the story. Don't overthink it too much (waaay too late for that lol).

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This is correct.

The plot isn't that deep. It's clearly not properly laid out. Often it's just shock value or philosophical concepts thrown in for flavour when the majority of the important notes are either downplayed or overhyped. Consequences for events and characters vary massively, often contrasting what people actually do (Genocidal maniac with forlorn thoughts of his past? "Fan-favourite emo boy!", for example).

...but it is fun to point out how deep it tries to present itself. Or is the problem with the community itself who seeks depth where there is none?

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

This is correct.

The plot isn't that deep. It's clearly not properly laid out. Often it's just shock value or philosophical concepts thrown in for flavour when the majority of the important notes are either downplayed or overhyped. Consequences for events and characters vary massively, often contrasting what people actually do (Genocidal maniac with forlorn thoughts of his past? "Fan-favourite emo boy!", for example).

...but it is fun to point out how deep it tries to present itself. Or is the problem with the community itself who seeks depth where there is none?

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Lot of it can just come down to what different people think makes a 'good' story. Some people are all about the emotional pull, others want internal logic and consistency, and still others just want big pay off moments regardless of whether they make sense when you stop and think about it.

We expect a lot from this game's writing and that isn't exactly fair seeing as it get 'localized' before it makes it to us.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Lot of it can just come down to what different people think makes a 'good' story. Some people are all about the emotional pull, others want internal logic and consistency, and still others just want big pay off moments regardless of whether they make sense when you stop and think about it.

We expect a lot from this game's writing and that isn't exactly fair seeing as it get 'localized' before it makes it to us.

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And some people want a balance, all of that is true.

But what happens when there's neither? Like, serious question. When the emotional impact you get is actually aversion to what the plot is telling you (at an emotional level), and then it's worsened by fridge logic (the logical level), what do you get?

As an example, that's what Emet Selch is to me. His actions are brushed away despite the crap he did leading to Bozja, Ala Mhigo and some of Doma, among others. We know what his society is doing to people they see as "impure", with huge overtones of European and East-Asian uh... "Early 20th Century extreme political regimes" to make it kosher for the forums.
Yet everyone praises his arse. Hell, a lot of people want more Garlean iconography and glamour options, whereas to me that's tantamount to glorifying uhh... shall we say "Early 20th Century extreme political regime propaganda efforts and twisting of cultural symbols"? Remember that while the Bozjan reveal of the Gunblade came later, it does now paint the initial Garlean gunblade in a fairly somber and problematic light when you think about it. And people waving a Garlean Gunblade around can carry a pretty nefarious message because of it.

But people will be people. And that's my personal view on it, that's my reading on it. So naturally people are free to disagree. I'm sure someone will.

But that doesn't make a story "deep". Depth should come from authorial intent, and whether it succeeds or not is what can be examined. The issue is that there are standards to follow. They're what differentiates your fanfiction from classics and allow people to examine them "in depth" versus just having fun with them. And those are what I'm referring to. I do think those standards can be under or overvalued, but overall they exist and are pretty much a set that people care for. At that point I don't think personal opinion in emotional investment or the story's logic making sense are a good measure of "depth".

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Ok boomer.

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The same children posting the same garbage for 700 pages. Truly impressive. Keep going. I find this very entertaining.

I don't need to be a writer to see the confusing plot holes and time travel paradoxes.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Interesting. Please do enlighten us, what common assertion about the story (made by those disappointed by it) is factually incorrect?

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You incorrectly assumed I wanted to have a discussion. I have no intention of discussing anything related to the story with perfect strangers. I don't care about your opinion or anyone else on this forum for that matter.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

I have never seen someone so angy over a thread they could just ignore.

Just walk away from the computer or close your eyes or something lmao, it's not that deep.

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I find it amusing you would expect me to take advice from a perfect stranger. I also think it is you that is incredibly angry in this situation. Breathe in, breathe out and you will be just fine.

Think up good replies guys. Make them nice and spicy. I will be away a few days but look forward to your responses when I return.

Here's one why are you here?

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Originally Posted by Reap00

You incorrectly assumed I wanted to have a discussion. I have no intention of discussing anything related to the story with perfect strangers. I don't care about your opinion or anyone else on this forum for that matter.

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If you do not intend to discuss your point in good faith, then what is the point in you even being here?

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Originally Posted by Reap00

*seething over others opinions*

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756 posts in nearly 10 years and you ain't made a good one yet lmfao

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Thank god there are so many great writers in the xiv forum that can tell the current xiv scrub writers how to improve their writing. I am sure now everything will go exactly as they hoped. I am sure all the bitching and whining in the world will change things. One day when you wake up and join reality you will realize the absurdity of it all. The most comical part is half of the assertions about the story are factually incorrect. I guess they skipped those cutscenes and then formed their "opinion".

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reap00

You incorrectly assumed I wanted to have a discussion. I have no intention of discussing anything related to the story with perfect strangers. I don't care about your opinion or anyone else on this forum for that matter.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Think up good replies guys. Make them nice and spicy. I will be away a few days but look forward to your responses when I return.

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So correct me if I'm wrong, but your sole purpose here seems to be to scream into the void because you don't like that people on the forums can write better stories than the actual writers of FFXIV? Hopefully you use that few day break from the forums to cope and come back to us with greater understanding and reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reap00

You incorrectly assumed I wanted to have a discussion. I have no intention of discussing anything related to the story with perfect strangers. I don't care about your opinion or anyone else on this forum for that matter.

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Then why are you here?

Look up the meaning and origin of the word "FORUM". And you'll see that "solo player echo chamber" isn't one of them.

But "public discussion" is likely to be referenced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

And some people want a balance, all of that is true.

But what happens when there's neither? Like, serious question. When the emotional impact you get is actually aversion to what the plot is telling you (at an emotional level), and then it's worsened by fridge logic (the logical level), what do you get?

As an example, that's what Emet Selch is to me. His actions are brushed away despite the crap he did leading to Bozja, Ala Mhigo and some of Doma, among others. We know what his society is doing to people they see as "impure", with huge overtones of European and East-Asian uh... "Early 20th Century extreme political regimes" to make it kosher for the forums.
Yet everyone praises his arse. Hell, a lot of people want more Garlean iconography and glamour options, whereas to me that's tantamount to glorifying uhh... shall we say "Early 20th Century extreme political regime propaganda efforts and twisting of cultural symbols"? Remember that while the Bozjan reveal of the Gunblade came later, it does now paint the initial Garlean gunblade in a fairly somber and problematic light when you think about it. And people waving a Garlean Gunblade around can carry a pretty nefarious message because of it.

But people will be people. And that's my personal view on it, that's my reading on it. So naturally people are free to disagree. I'm sure someone will.

But that doesn't make a story "deep". Depth should come from authorial intent, and whether it succeeds or not is what can be examined. The issue is that there are standards to follow. They're what differentiates your fanfiction from classics and allow people to examine them "in depth" versus just having fun with them. And those are what I'm referring to. I do think those standards can be under or overvalued, but overall they exist and are pretty much a set that people care for. At that point I don't think personal opinion in emotional investment or the story's logic making sense are a good measure of "depth".

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Idk man it a videogame, People don't overanalyse the glams you wear and their socio-cultural impact. We got green Roe running around in speedo with neon pink Frog head. Should we ban ishguaridans drip cause their glams are inspired by the style Europe had during the crusades? Just let people wear what they want fr.

Not gonna explain my point of view with Emeth, but my issues is just that if you simplify the plot, It just Ascians and Hydeline commiting genocide so their side can survive. SHB showed that in the end, in term of moral both side had their issues and the situation just escaladed to a point where both side need to kill eachother if they want their kinds to survive. Endwalker just tossed that away and praised Hydeline saying she had the right solution.

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As entertaining as the poster above me is

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Thank you. The new poster is not knowing who is important chara of the guild is because is new. We are most faith of poster in tread now and we is welcoming you.

Long time ago guild has many writer like the Ayybeyond or the Madge King of All Amigos. They making the inspiration tread about the Prussian Garlemalding with blond blue ariana race and the Scottish Fordola and the duckstep emoji and the sticky emoji. This bring creation of new story for the Hildabrand where is kill by the God Meteo.

We join inner circle and have many talk in the tread. I upset about game is treating Garlemalding and post is most celebrate and welcome. When lose the faith and pass on old leader hand candle to us with the tear. But is not time for tear. Guild must prepare to fight forum paladin in the patch 63 with attack of the evil loprabbit of the Venar. But we can not making the army alone. Is need the high councilling to rule like the No Shadow God before was destroy and forget. I know veteren chara like the Tariq and the new chara Red Turkey having the faith to attack loprabbit of Patch 63. New or old is not matter. So will choosing the vice kings for the guild under high king. Support guild in join the link below if wanting to become the vice king. Will do the discuss in the real time. We will lead guild to the 1000 page.

5C9FyGaM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

So correct me if I'm wrong, but your sole purpose here seems to be to scream into the void because you don't like that people on the forums can write better stories than the actual writers of FFXIV? Hopefully you use that few day break from the forums to cope and come back to us with greater understanding and reason.

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Seems more like that poster finds it amusing that other random people think they can write "better" stories, while the actual writers have created a game and an expansion that is overwhelmingly praised practically everywhere except this one little echo chamber of negativity...

Quote:

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Interesting. Please do enlighten us, what common assertion about the story (made by those disappointed by it) is factually incorrect?

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I think the issue is more that nothing "factual" has even been offered to refute. It's a bunch of personal opinions trying to masquerade as if they're facts, but they're nothing of the sort.

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I played other FF game and we never get ''friendship is magic'' trope.

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FFVI comes right to mind. Heck, the entire buildup to the final fight is all of the people making cheesy inspirational comments that ends with Kefka making his "you all sound like chapters from a self-help book" chirp. FFIV has its entire buildup involve the people on Earth (or whatever the game world is) sending their prayers and magical spirit energy up to the moon to revive and empower the main team (Hint: it's the reference for the Scions saving and buffing us in the Endsinger fight). The trope you mentioned is common in the FF series.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Graeham

Thank you. The new poster is not knowing who is important chara of the guild is because is new. We are most faith of poster in tread now and we is welcoming you.

Long time ago guild has many writer like the Ayybeyond or the Madge King of All Amigos. They making the inspiration tread about the Prussian Garlemalding with blond blue ariana race and the Scottish Fordola and the duckstep emoji and the sticky emoji. This bring creation of new story for the Hildabrand where is kill by the God Meteo.

We join inner circle and have many talk in the tread. I upset about game is treating Garlemalding and post is most celebrate and welcome. When lose the faith and pass on old leader hand candle to us with the tear. But is not time for tear. Guild must prepare to fight forum paladin in the patch 63 with attack of the evil loprabbit of the Venar. But we can not making the army alone. Is need the high councilling to rule like the No Shadow God before was destroy and forget. I know veteren chara like the Tariq and the new chara Red Turkey having the faith to attack loprabbit of Patch 63. New or old is not matter. So will choosing the vice kings for the guild under high king. Support guild in join the link below if wanting to become the vice king. Will do the discuss in the real time. We will lead guild to the 1000 page.

5C9FyGaM

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"Madge King of All Amigos" is so freaking good lmao :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Seems more like that poster finds it amusing that other random people think they can write "better" stories, while the actual writers have created a game and an expansion that is overwhelmingly praised practically everywhere except this one little echo chamber of negativity...



I think the issue is more that nothing "factual" has even been offered to refute. It's a bunch of personal opinions trying to masquerade as if they're facts, but they're nothing of the sort.



FFVI comes right to mind. Heck, the entire buildup to the final fight is all of the people making cheesy inspirational comments that ends with Kefka making his "you all sound like chapters from a self-help book" chirp. FFIV has its entire buildup involve the people on Earth (or whatever the game world is) sending their prayers and magical spirit energy up to the moon to revive and empower the main team (Hint: it's the reference for the Scions saving and buffing us in the Endsinger fight). The trope you mentioned is common in the FF series.

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I agree for FFIV, but FFVI despite having cheesy quotes, ain't centered on friendships. Cyan and Setzer are all about fighting on for the ones they lost rather than just giving up. The only one about friendship as far as I can remember is Mog who litteraly say he do it for the friend he made along the way lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Striker44

think the issue is more that nothing "factual" has even been offered to refute. It's a bunch of personal opinions trying to masquerade as if they're facts, but they're nothing of the sort.

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The main thing that bothers me is the tendency for people who were okay with the story to just scream about how the nay-sayers are wrong instead of trying to actually offer counterpoints.

At the end of the day, it is strictly a matter of opinion as to whether or not you feel the points the story was trying to make are strongly reasoned enough to feel logical instead of contrived, but it doesn't mean you can't at least try to back up those opinions either way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Striker44

I think the issue is more that nothing "factual" has even been offered to refute.

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Are you not the one who uses the alleged existence of a 'majority' that supposedly exists out there in the aether as evidence for everything you say?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aline_D

That inherent weakness was one of the reasons of why Venat chose to sunder everyone.
The second reason was also to make humanity weaker, so they would never be able to achieve perfection, which could also be destructive as we see from the Ea and other races that simply lost the will to live after reaching Utopia.

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At this point of time, Venat/Hydaelyn cannot know it, that perfection can lead to self destruction. You get this information in Ultima Thule. But at this point of time you are back from Elpis and Hydaelyn is already defeated.


Cheers

they really need to stop necro bumping this topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The main thing that bothers me is the tendency for people who were okay with the story to just scream about how the nay-sayers are wrong instead of trying to actually offer counterpoints.

At the end of the day, it is strictly a matter of opinion as to whether or not you feel the points the story was trying to make are strongly reasoned enough to feel logical instead of contrived, but it doesn't mean you can't at least try to back up those opinions either way.

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you should know by now, difference in perspectives are frowned upon. Even if you have valid counter points

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Axxion

you should know by now, difference in perspectives are frowned upon. Even if you have valid counter points

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There is also a type of person who thinks the people that disagree with them should not be allowed to have discussions on these forums. They are the arbiters of what is right and good and they decide what people are allowed to talk about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aline_D

Zodiark was just a name they drop once or twice, how did he "deserve better?"

>friendship is magic is a tired trope,

Ahh so this is a troll post. Else I have no idea why you are suffering to play a Final Fantasy game where friendship is pretty much *always* the magic. Maybe go play COD or GTA where everyone is an edgy as**le?

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Zodiark's name may have only been dropped once or twice until Shadowbringers, but he had been built up since as early as ARR. The Ascians regularly talked about their master, their god, the force behind everything they do. Over the various expansions we learned more and more about them and consequently about Zodiark as well, they didn't need to drop his name every single time.
Until 6.0 Zodiark was building up to be the final enemy we had to defeat, only for him to get axed in such a nonchalant and abrupt way that it felt jarring to say the least. Did it subvert expectations? Sure. Was it executed well? Debatable.

I also wouldn't immediately dismiss this as a troll post either, Droxy isn't necessarily wrong, they're just not doing a good job at explaining their point.

Yes, over the course of pretty much every expansion we did often use friendship to solve the respective issues in the story, but it was significantly more grounded and believable within the game's universe. We forged bonds and alliances with people and nations to overcome adversity by working together, using numbers and diverse skill sets to overcome what we couldn't on our own.

But with the introduction of Meteon and Dynamis the power scaling just went completely off the rails, it was an enemy so much more powerful than what we thought would be the final boss, Zodiark, even at his prime. Meteon became a problem that we just couldn't realistically defeat with anything so far established in the game, even if the entire planet worked together we would just lose.

So besides dropping an even bigger bad than Zodiark on us out of nowhere in the last stretches of the game the devs also had to invent a plot device to allows us to defeat it, making Dynamis pull double duty as the force that makes Meteon this comically powerful and also the force that would allow us to have a fighting chance, literally turning friendship into magic.


One could even argue that this turned XIV from a more grounded fantasy universe into a generic shounen anime, where we don't manage to defeat the enemy with training, experience, preparation and cooperation, instead we get more powerful just because we believe.