Monks very weak. Need rebalance

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Yep.

That's my main issue with logrep though -- it's accumulates DPS on multiple targets completely incorrectly. Extremely annoying, because you have to go back and guesstimate the actual fight length then divide the total damage. Don't know why the author of the parser summed the DPS that way. So silly.

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That's I am thinking the guy claim he did 300 DPS on Titan was using that accumulates DPS. The people using this parser only tell people the accumulates DPS.

Yes, Titan shows separate DPS entries for (a) Titan, (b), Titan's Heart, (c) Gaols, (d) Bombs (if you ever hit bombs).

The fundamental issue being that each separate entry is mostly accurate, but adding them directly to each other is 100% wrong. As a generic example of a Titan parse:

time = 9 minutes (but logrep doesn't say whether that's 8:45 or 9:10 or what)

Total | 109600 damage | Titan Boss | 510 DPS

You | 90000 damage | Titan | 170 DPS
You | 12600 damage | Titan's Heart | 220 DPS
You | 7000 damage | Gaol | 120 DPS


Your actual DPS in this scenario is roughly 209, not 510. The other part I'm not sure about is how it calculates the gap when you stop attacking Titan -- does it stop the "clock" for the Titan DPS line, or not? E.g. total fight length is 8:45, but only 7:50 was spent actually attacking Titan. Is the DPS number listed in logrep based on the first and last attack on Titan (8:45), or based on the actual amount of time attacking Titan (7:50)?

Don't know.

The most accurate would be taking the total 109600 damage and dividing by the total fight time (8:45). Problem is that logrep only has "9 minutes" as the fight time, without the # of seconds >_<.

MNK isn't over-powered or under-powered. It is the DPS job with the highest DPS ceiling, and therefore has the most potential to perform the best DPS in most content. Therefore any buffs to MNK DPS would be counter-productive to the balance of this game.

That pretty much sums up the opposition for this thread which claims MNK is very weak and needs a re-balance.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

That's I am thinking the guy claim he did 300 DPS on Titan was using that accumulates DPS. The people using this parser only tell people the accumulates DPS.

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See, this is exactly what I addressed 2 pages ago in a long post using my personal logrep Titan parse as an example. Yet you replied to me simply saying that the parser was inaccurate because the DPS value is inaccurate. This is why I ask that you learn to read and understand people before you go around making posts.

I never suggested he/she actually did 300 DPS on Titan. I suggested why he/she may think that is the case by explaining how logrep works.

I just don't want hear you say MNK is DPS king or some word similar.
MNK is not even close to the DPS king. For AOE, every know Blm is the king.
For burst Dmg, Blm and DRG are all much higher than MNK. For a 5 min dummy single target, DRG isn't behind MNK.
MNK just a ok DPS without bringing much to team for pve and will get owned for pvp if there was no big change happened.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

I just don't want hear you say MNK is DPS king or some word similar.
MNK is not even close to the DPS king. For AOE, every know Blm is the king.
For burst Dmg, Blm and DRG are all much higher than MNK. For a 5 min dummy single target, DRG isn't behind MNK.
MNK just a ok DPS without bringing much to team for pve and will get owned for pvp if there was no big change happened.

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MNK is best single target DPS. You see how you say BLM is the king for AoE. Yeah, MNK is the king for single target. That's how it is. If you say otherwise, you clearly don't know the job. I've played with the best of every job and have participated in extensive DPS testing for all of them.

For burst DPS, DRG starts out higher with it's cooldowns... perhaps. However, for any fight that will last longer than like 30 seconds, MNK will pass a DRG. Heck, if we're talking about both of them having all of their cooldowns, people severely underestimate Perfect Balance. Give MNK ID and it can have incredible burst DPS when it needs to as well.

For a 5 minute dummy single target DRG is nowhere near MNK. Nothing can beat an equivalently geared MNK on a dummy. Nothing. Unless you're going to be dumb and keep hitting the dummy after you run out of TP on MNK just to get to a 5 minute parse and suggest that is an accurate measure of their DPS... lol. BLM from what I can tell gets the closest to MNK DPS on a dummy parse. DRG isn't even close.

That you would even say that MNK is just an "OK DPS" speaks volumes about how little you know.

http://i.imgur.com/BXUqIK2.jpg

Not even using ID or Fracture in that parse.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

For a 5 minute dummy single target DRG is nowhere near MNK. Nothing can beat an equivalently geared MNK on a dummy. Nothing. Unless you're going to be dumb and keep hitting the dummy after you run out of TP on MNK just to get to a 5 minute parse and suggest that is an accurate measure of their DPS... lol. BLM from what I can tell gets the closest to MNK DPS on a dummy parse. DRG isn't even close.

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Summoners may or may not be better than us.
My impression is they are pretty close in single target to monks if not better. It's just very hard to find good ones.
I'd like to see where they stand.

Monk is insane single target dps! If u dont know this just go back to nerf everyone post's an be a fluffy troll, end of story!

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Summoners may or may not be better than us.
My impression is they are pretty close in single target to monks if not better. It's just very hard to find good ones.
I'd like to see where they stand.

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Yeah... I typically try to avoid talking about SMN just because I never got to personally test the job thoroughly, what with its DPS being heavily based on DoTs, etc. That being said, SMN is definitely capable of very good DPS and I wouldn't be surprised if it rivaled MNK in the hands of a capable player.

Anyone who doubts A monks true DPS is either repeating what the first idiot who couldn't play monk said or just trolling. its rare that I get out DPS by any class on a single target as a monk even if I'm late to the party I still out Aggro so many on a regular basis and just watch health bars deplete

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Originally Posted by MartyMcfly

Monk problems are not related to the literal damage we put out. There is no problem theree
We are a class that deals death by a million pin pricks.

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It's not about the size it's how you use it!

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Yeah... I typically try to avoid talking about SMN just because I never got to personally test the job thoroughly, what with its DPS being heavily based on DoTs, etc. That being said, SMN is definitely capable of very good DPS and I wouldn't be surprised if it rivaled MNK in the hands of a capable player.

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Isn't it kind of...completely f***ed if SMN can match our single target while decimating our AoE, having battle res, being able to offheal and being ranged with quick casts to boot?

That doesn't...sound very balanced. I could be missing something, which is why I'm asking you all as more experienced monks than I(only cleared Turn 2 so far and a lot of the dudes in this topic seem much further along.)

Why do people keep saying Mnk cant aoe... Have you not read your skills?

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Why do people keep saying Mnk cant aoe... Have you not read your skills?

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Our AoE is garbage compared to BLM, SMN and BRD. Be better if AoD got rid of the silence and had a 10 potency DoT but that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Blooregard

Isn't it kind of...completely f***ed if SMN can match our single target while decimating our AoE, having battle res, being able to offheal and being ranged with quick casts to boot?

That doesn't...sound very balanced. I could be missing something, which is why I'm asking you all as more experienced monks than I(only cleared Turn 2 so far and a lot of the dudes in this topic seem much further along.)

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Well, single target or not, because the vast majority of fights have at least 2 targets, SMN wins hands down because of cleave dotting.

Sadface!

Also monk AoE is not horrific like you say, and summoner aoe is pretty incredibly hindered at more than 4 targets (turn 4 bugs anyone? >.>) it is pretty awful.

I'm not very experienced with SMN ( I have it at 50 with a relic but haven't used it much in endgame) but I don't see how they have amazing AoE. BLM has amazing AoE, yes. All I can think of for SMN is Shadow Flare and Bane (which only spreads to 2 additional targets max iirc - maybe 3 additional).

I'm sure SMN is capable in AoE, but I'm not seeing how it can be considered to "decimate" our AOE.

Most people, it seems, underestimate MNK's AoE prowess. It isn't amaze-balls, but it's pretty potent.

Ultimately, I'm not too experienced with SMN DPS to make any reliable comment.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I'm not very experienced with SMN ( I have it at 50 with a relic but haven't used it much in endgame) but I don't see how they have amazing AoE. BLM has amazing AoE, yes. All I can think of for SMN is Shadow Flare and Bane (which only spreads to 2 additional targets max iirc - maybe 3 additional).

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Summoner matches BLM AoE dps if you OOM ourselves in about 20 seconds with Tri-disaster spam (or thunder Dotting), on 4 targets.

Summoner, and every class in the game, loses to BLM if the AoE phase lasts longer than 10-15 seconds.

Its stupid, and SE is dumb for capping bane for 1, and also for making AoEs so inefficient for everyone else.

Don't worry, BLM decimates EVERYONE for AoE.

Capping bane is necessary else it would be a tad overpowered.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Capping bane is necessary else it would be a tad overpowered.

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Only because of potential dps of ruin, and lets be honest, ruin's dps is not that high (it wouldn't even amount to 15% more dps with ruin spam).

Even with uncapped bane SMN dps is only barely on par with BLM, and we oom extremely quickly.

The only reason it seems overpowered is because everyone aside from BLM is so damn underpowered.

It would be interesting if instead of bane, we had a channeled ability that ticks all our DoTs in an AoE (similar to Shadowpriests mind sear).

Actually thats a great idea. Please SE, remove tri disaster and turn it into a channeled DoT spreader.

Our damage would still be much lower than BLM, but at least this way it will appease those that don't like bane because it is just a fire and forget.

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Originally Posted by Syrus718

Anyone who doubts A monks true DPS is either repeating what the first idiot who couldn't play monk said or just trolling. its rare that I get out DPS by any class on a single target as a monk even if I'm late to the party I still out Aggro so many on a regular basis and just watch health bars deplete

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Did this guy just base damage on aggro bar?

You realise the majority of the other classes have access to -enmity skill right? If you aint 2nd to tank or 3rd to two tanks you are absolutely terrible. Either way it dosnt accurately measure dps against party members.

Not that im saying monk is weak or too strong, i havnt put enough effort to actually calculate it, it seems like its around the same damage as a similarly geared blm but thats likely because monks have to move more and losing greased drops our damage by a large ammount, we outdamage everyone on fights against a single target where movement is minimal.

You can argue monk suffers harder from boss mechanics than most classes, it all depends on if it balances up at the end.

Just let you all know DRG can do 350 DPS on dummy with 5 min result. If you want to claim king of single DPS.
You need be top1 for burst, short and long term fight. Obviously MNK isn't. Go give a Try to beat full i90 gear DRG in Gardua HM. you can do it few time easily and parser the result if don't believe DRG DPS is very close to MNK.somehow Good DRG is hard to see.

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Originally Posted by Rhained

Did this guy just base damage on aggro bar?

You realise the majority of the other classes have access to -enmity skill right? If you aint 2nd to tank or 3rd to two tanks you are absolutely terrible. Either way it dosnt accurately measure dps against party members.

Not that im saying monk is weak or too strong, i havnt put enough effort to actually calculate it, it seems like its around the same damage as a ...

You can argue monk suffers harder from boss mechanics than most classes, it all depends on if it balances up at the end.

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Yeah I agree. Boss mechanics is big problem. These MNK never seen the strength of other job. reason is simple.
1. Most group only invite a melee and they hard to see DRG performance.
2. MNK is easy to gear up. You have better gear than others
3. Some job assigned other task, such ballad, silence, aoe on adds.

After 2.05, WP SR is most people do after coil. MNK is some kind shame on that run.
Blm/bard/DRG are shining. As a PAL, I normally only invite that 3 jobs. Don't cry MNKs who believe they were king of DPS. Why nobody need you when your DPS is so awesome?

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Just let you all know DRG can do 350 DPS on dummy with 5 min result. If you want to claim king of single DPS.
You need be top1 for burst, short and long term fight. Obviously MNK isn't. Go give a Try to beat full i90 gear DRG in Gardua HM. you can do it few time easily and parser the result if don't believe DRG DPS is very close to MNK.somehow Good DRG is hard to see.

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I'd love to see that parse. Until then, you are just noise.

Show me a detailed parse like I have with a DRG doing more than 330 DPS on a training dummy, and then maybe I'll bother to do another parse on my MNK and this time actually use Impulse Drive and Fracture.

DRG has a significantly lower DPS ceiling than MNK. Training dummies are used to test said ceilings. Thus, you will not be able to supply me with an accurate LogRep parse of a DRG performing 350 DPS on a training dummy like you claim.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Yeah I agree. Boss mechanics is big problem. These MNK never seen the strength of other job. reason is simple.
1. Most group only invite a melee and they hard to see DRG performance.
2. MNK is easy to gear up. You have better gear than others
3. Some job assigned other task, such ballad, silence, aoe on adds.

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1. Not sure what you're even trying to say here? Most groups invite melee and therefore it is hard for them to see a DRG's performance? What? Elaborate. Make sense. Try again.
2. MNK is easier to gear up? What? lol... what are you talking about man? I farmed philosophy for darklight, farmed myth for relic+1/melee gear and did coil for allagan drops like everyone else. We have better gear than others? What?
3. Don't insult my intelligence by suggesting I am basing my claims off of observational data from content where other jobs had specific tasks to do that hindered their DPS.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

After 2.05, WP SR is most people do after coil. MNK is some kind shame on that run.
Blm/bard/DRG are shining. As a PAL, I normally only invite that 3 jobs. Don't cry MNKs who believe they were king of DPS. Why nobody need you when your DPS is so awesome?

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WP speedruns are AoE heavy. BLM and BRD work better for the speedrun AoE burn for WP. I switch to my BLM/BRD when going in to WP. The mention of WP is completely irrelevant to the discussion about top single target DPS.

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All this time I've been going back and forth with:

Neo Anderson (Sargatanas)
GLA 50 - PGL 50 - MRD 26 - LNC 34 - ARC 0 - CNJ 15 - THM 0 - ACN 0
Lodestone currently shows PLD gear with iLv80 Curtana and Holy Shield. Highest ilvl otherwise 70, with mostly ilvl60 pieces.

Yup, you seem reasonably well equipped and experienced to be having these discussions. Sure hope your MNK is better geared at least, though it seems like you play PLD more from what I can tell from your posts.

Yeah... until you present some data to backup your claims, we're basically done here Mr. Anderson.

Our single target DPS is top tier.
When we do WP speed runs I go BLM, since we suck with clearing trash mobs.
I'm actually happy with Monk and have yet to see anyone outparse me.

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Originally Posted by Rhained

Did this guy just base damage on aggro bar?

You realise the majority of the other classes have access to -enmity skill right? If you aint 2nd to tank or 3rd to two tanks you are absolutely terrible. Either way it dosnt accurately measure dps against party members.

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I do it myself and I am aware they have -enmity skills. It's about how you set it up. If you agree to not use -enmity skills, you can use the aggro bar to gauge who deals the most damage. And let's be honest, in most cases, you don't even NEED to use -enmity skills if your tank is decent. About the only exception could be WHM.

Noctis, gear boy, if you didn't notice my MNK gear, you at least could know my MNK max Dmg is over 750. The result came with no food no potion. Almost Everyday I got people ask how to play MNK on my server. I haven't seen any MNK beat me in Gardua DPS race game yet.lol

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Noctis, gear boy, if you didn't notice my MNK gear, you at least could know my MNK max Dmg is over 750.

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Wow ! You must be very good. lol

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Noctis, gear boy, if you didn't notice my MNK gear, you at least could know my MNK max Dmg is over 750. The result came with no food no potion. Almost Everyday I got people ask how to play MNK on my server. I haven't seen any MNK beat me in Gardua DPS race game yet.lol

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Funny, i've never heard of you! Mr. best MNK Sargatanas!

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Noctis, gear boy, if you didn't notice my MNK gear, you at least could know my MNK max Dmg is over 750. The result came with no food no potion. Almost Everyday I got people ask how to play MNK on my server. I haven't seen any MNK beat me in Gardua DPS race game yet.lol

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I would expect nothing less from "The One".

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Noctis, gear boy, if you didn't notice my MNK gear, you at least could know my MNK max Dmg is over 750. The result came with no food no potion. Almost Everyday I got people ask how to play MNK on my server. I haven't seen any MNK beat me in Gardua DPS race game yet.lol

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I love the amount of BS being shouted from this clown. I have almost all ilvl90 gear just missing a few more peices and I can tell you right now without a buff of some sort you are not hitting over 750dmg without food or pot. I can hit between 700-725 on a really good snap punch crit in my gear so either you have all determination and no accuracy or crit. Or your just plain full of crap. The only way you are hitting over 750 crits is if you are geared for raw dmg and if you are then good luck hitting anything in coil. And even then you would need food buff and pot's to reliably hit that much.

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Originally Posted by Celesian

I love the amount of BS being shouted from this clown. I have almost all ilvl90 gear just missing a few more peices and I can tell you right now without a buff of some sort you are not hitting over 750dmg without food or pot. I can hit between 700-725 on a really good snap punch crit in my gear so either you have all determination and no accuracy or crit. Or your just plain full of crap. The only way you are hitting over 750 crits is if you are geared for raw dmg and if you are then good luck hitting anything in coil. And even then you would need food buff and pot's to reliably hit that much.

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Great that you broke it down and all but, I would say it's already quite evident especially from the last few pages that Mr. Anderson is full of crap.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Noctis, gear boy, if you didn't notice my MNK gear, you at least could know my MNK max Dmg is over 750. The result came with no food no potion. Almost Everyday I got people ask how to play MNK on my server. I haven't seen any MNK beat me in Gardua DPS race game yet.lol

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Can you please just go away and leave us alone?

it does feel like im playing street fighter the way i have to position myself for my abilities just to be on point with other classes that can just chill back and eat a bag of Cheetos and do the same amount of dps as me, probably even more. Please change something about the class, theres a reason why not many people play as them.

Their representation/popularity is not as simple as the strength of the class. Many people find monks a lot less aesthetically pleasing than dragoons, for example.

What content are you doing that you find monks so weak?

why play a monk, when i can play a black mage who doesn't have to worry about positioning and can do more dps then a monk can without having to chase down mobs at all

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Originally Posted by deamondog

why play a monk, when i can play a black mage who doesn't have to worry about positioning and can do more dps then a monk can without having to chase down mobs at all

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Exactly. now go talk about blms!

But my favorite class is the monk

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Originally Posted by deamondog

But my favorite class is the monk

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But u are not even a mnk yet... so how can u judge?

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Originally Posted by deamondog

But my favorite class is the monk

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Monk is not your favorite class, else you wouldn't want it changed. The speed and positioning is what makes monk my favorite class, and I don't want it changed. You might have your personal ideal of what monk has to be, but it's not what monk is.

Personally, I don't care if not many play monk. I do care about the fact that those who do usually have a very bad idea of how to play it.

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Originally Posted by deamondog

why play a monk, when i can play a black mage who doesn't have to worry about positioning and can do more dps then a monk can without having to chase down mobs at all

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1) The positions are mostly flank. Which isn't that hard since there are two.
2) Chasing down mobs? You're a melee, that's what you do.

Positioning is a bigger deal levelling than at the end since you don't have dragon kick. Take out true strike for twin snakes as soon as you can, it's not worth it.
Now things are much simpler.