Binding Coil of Bahamut Discussion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...PDGHs5Mck#t=12

^ Video on how to beat Twintania. L2P Noobs

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Originally Posted by Laryndra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...PDGHs5Mck#t=12

^ Video on how to beat Twintania. L2P Noobs

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Gale cut sure did get a big buff in this version. Or is the party in that video using something to mitigate it? We need to see their gear and buff bars. Maybe water elemental attacks weaken wind? Do we have to wait to get our Leviathon Primal gear to beat Twintania?

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Originally Posted by Alvana

We will freaking GET GUD as soon as they open up f*cking Turn 5 again. Before they decided to shut it down twister was only a minor problem for us, not even progression blocking.

http://i.imgur.com/L00vmh9.png

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Oh yeah same here bro.

http://i.imgur.com/6shzxqz.png

/sarcasm

I'm pretty sure you guys will continue to hang onto lag/positional shit/whatever else you can think of as an excuse for not being able to figure out the mechanic behind it. Laughable excuse for hardcore raiders.

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Originally Posted by Fevermode

Oh yeah same here bro.

http://i.imgur.com/6shzxqz.png

/sarcasm

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I'm still !@#@ing furious. Middle of an attempt and boom, maintenance happened.
http://i41.tinypic.com/rh3mv8.png

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Originally Posted by Xell

Gale cut sure did get a big buff in this version. Or is the party in that video using something to mitigate it? We need to see their gear and buff bars. Maybe water elemental attacks weaken wind? Do we have to wait to get our Leviathon Primal gear to beat Twintania?

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The key in this instance is Big Guard. Gotta use big guard. Alternatively you could Jump just before Twintania uses it.

I read that on Reddit:

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I'm calling it now, you have to beat ADS after you beat quarantine node. I've yet to see anyone even notion that this was beatable, and to put a mob in a game that you don't even have to kill, and that makes a boss harder, seems illogical.
I mean, it was pretty much decided by everyone that there's no reason to beat this mob so I'm almost certain no one has tried since a few weeks ago. Seriously, everyone's skipping this and not even questioning its reason to be there, given that it changes an easily scripted movement of 5 players into a high voltage that is near unsilenceable due to decreased cast time.

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And replied with that:

Heh. Reading your post, it makes sense, like...
You dismissed this one as a "trap" now, did you? Because it makes the Turn 2 boss insanely fast and you're guaranteed to have paralysis on you, eh?
Good. Til you kill it, and obtain the 100% drop Twister Interrupter, you won't kill Twintania. So long.
Now this would be deliciously evil, it would. Not that I'd ever try it, I'm not into S&M, but yeah...still well played ;)

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Originally Posted by Laryndra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...PDGHs5Mck#t=12

^ Video on how to beat Twintania. L2P Noobs

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Lmfao. Not seen that fight in years.

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Originally Posted by Sovjohn

I read that on Reddit:



And replied with that:

Heh. Reading your post, it makes sense, like...
You dismissed this one as a "trap" now, did you? Because it makes the Turn 2 boss insanely fast and you're guaranteed to have paralysis on you, eh?
Good. Til you kill it, and obtain the 100% drop Twister Interrupter, you won't kill Twintania. So long.
Now this would be deliciously evil, it would. Not that I'd ever try it, I'm not into S&M, but yeah...still well played ;)

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Y'know, that wouldn't surprise me. Just look at Ozma from FFIX--you've gotta kill all of the Land Spirits before you can feasibly attack him. Maybe you need to kill everything in Turn 2 to weaken Twintania's Twister? Or that Quarantine Node is just a clever troll by SE. Both are equally likely.

And when all else fails, plug your controller in port 2! That way she can't read your mind!

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Originally Posted by Mysteltain

Y'know, that wouldn't surprise me. Just look at Ozma from FFIX--you've gotta kill all of the Land Spirits before you can feasibly attack him. Maybe you need to kill everything in Turn 2 to weaken Twintania's Twister? Or that Quarantine Node is just a clever troll by SE. Both are equally likely.

And when all else fails, plug your controller in port 2! That way she can't read your mind!

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I really don't think it would be a beat this in x turn to make turn 5 work, unless you get some kind of item drop from doing it. Keep in mind that aside from saving your progress as "completed" there isn't really anything else to doing something in one turn vs another. For example, if you had 4 people down turn 2 one way and another 4 people down turn 2 another way, when you combine those 8 people together which "turn 2 completion" would it take? The leaders? the group majority? As far as lockouts goes, it is just a simple check, have you downed X boss? no then you can proceed.

Again, unless you get some kind of item, buff, equipment, etc dropped from a prior turn I would have to call BS on it having anything to do with turn 5. Feel free to kill it and see what happens, but I doubt there is anything you need from a prior turn.

Sidenote, aren't there people that do datamining? wouldn't someone have discovered "Item of twister invulnerability" inside the game files SOMEWHERE already?

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Originally Posted by Senzura

Although I am worried it might be similar to FFXII and the zodiak spear. Its starting to sound that way.

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Keep the 3 drakes alive all the way to twister phase, amirite?

Anyone try emotes on him...?

Since this thread bounces between topics, I've created a topic specifically for brainstorming/showing proof of failure/success strats for Twister in another there here. As promised!

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Originally Posted by CrashQQ

Likely just a cop out.

DD was just "fixed" even though it was "Working as intended".

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Working as intended does not mean balanced.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Next, there have been a lot of comments about how surviving Twintania's "Twister" ability is seemingly random. Please know that it is not random and that the development team has adjusted the difficulty of this battle to be of the highest level that is in the game currently. With that said though, it was still designed to be beaten. While we definitely cannot comment on strategy, we believe that a valiant group will be able to defeat Twintania.

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Is this the same team responsible for Absolute Virtue and Pandemonium Warden in FFXI?

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Originally Posted by ChickensEvil

I really don't think it would be a beat this in x turn to make turn 5 work, unless you get some kind of item drop from doing it. Keep in mind that aside from saving your progress as "completed" there isn't really anything else to doing something in one turn vs another. For example, if you had 4 people down turn 2 one way and another 4 people down turn 2 another way, when you combine those 8 people together which "turn 2 completion" would it take? The leaders? the group majority?

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It takes the leader's. The leader is the one who has to initiate it, and if someone is ahead of where the leader is, they can't go in.

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Originally Posted by Mysteltain

Y'know, I remember a topic about Turn 3 seeming odd to many people. Mayhap the solution lies there?

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From what I remember, Bayohne (or Camate?) posted that Turn 3 doesn't have any hidden stuff in it and it's working as intended.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

From what I remember, Bayohne (or Camate?) posted that Turn 3 doesn't have any hidden stuff in it and it's working as intended.

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Wasn't that context in regards to bosses?

And also, the mod said "no loot" but there's chests with items (potions) in them.

So... yeah I don't know wtf to think.

this is the first mechanic in MMO history that has not been figured out by the hardcorest of all hardcore raiders. Bravo SE, you are making history

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Originally Posted by Bashkarthegreat

this is the first mechanic in MMO history that has not been figured out by the hardcorest of all hardcore raiders. Bravo SE, you are making history

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Not really, four horsemen took eight weeks for people to figure out and kill. The problem was it was a stupid strategy. No one seriously expected Blizzard to require 20% of your raid to be warriors with 3 pieces of T3. AV's "strategy" wasn't discovered for years and it was never successfully replicated in a legit kill.

No Modified comments? Strange.

About what?

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Originally Posted by SonyaArin

About what?

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Oh, I see, you just don't wear the modified tag in your signature. I redact my previous comment.

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Originally Posted by Thyrllan

AV's "strategy" wasn't discovered for years and it was never successfully replicated in a legit kill.

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People don't know how AV fully works to this day. You could remove her 2 hour abilities (which pretty much required a 3rd party program to use the corresponding abilities quickly enough) but it didn't stop her wiping your entire alliance whenever she felt like it with insta-cast Meteor in Bracelets mode.

Anyways, irrelevant now, back to coil stuff.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Keep the 3 drakes alive all the way to twister phase, amirite?

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More like don't open the loot in your turn 1 kill or something

It's Saturday night and no mention of maintenance on Monday. Another week of no Twintania?

It's becoming really hard for those of us in high end FCs to continue playing FFXIV. We're basically paying a subscription fee to sit AFK in Mor Dhona, right now.

They said it would open next Wednesday (at the earliest, IIRC). I can find the source when I'm less sleepy.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

They said it would open next Wednesday (at the earliest, IIRC). I can find the source when I'm less sleepy.

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Was mentioned in the Live Letter that they would be aiming to have it opened again on Wednesday, you are correct. They were working on the "Final modifications".

Man, I go away for a weekend and all kinds of fun stuff happens!

Essentially, two things stick out about this whole situation to me:

1) No-one is arguing that the mechanic is designed as being legitimately random (which, I believe, is misconstrued from the APPEARANCE that it is random due to what appears to many as a bugged state). I wholly agree with the CM (not a dev, but a CM) that the encounter is likely beatable as designed. I honestly believe s/he was simply dispelling that the encounter was designed as an intentional content roadblock. This says nothing about whether it is actually functioning as designed, however.

2) If, as is "claimed," the answer lies in some ultra-obscure mechanic to defeat it, then I honestly feel as if this is an equal travesty. I have been around the MMO scene for a very long time, and played many different iterations of many MMOs on the market, and none that I have ever played to any substantial degree have relied on such artificial difficulty. My foray into FFXI was both late and limited, so (fortunately?) I did not experience the PW/AV design choices. This being said, I firmly believe that an encounter's difficulty should lie in its execution, or your ability to pick up on clues given by the encounter and develop a strategy to perform it to perfection. I can easily design an encounter that is 100% impossible for players to discover a mechanic, despite it being trivial to perform once known and claim that this is "difficulty." I'm sorry, but difficulty of this sort is simply artificial. Just because you can conceive a mechanic for an encounter does not mean you should include it with zero surrounding context. The next thing you know, they will spit out the next tier's end boss which performs a room wide 100% AoE damage if your entire raid isn't in the middle of a /dance emote animation when you pull. Possible to kill? Yes. Good encounter deisgn? No. This design MIGHT be acceptable for an outdoor, open world, non-requisite boss.

They are already walking a thin line with an incredibly dry game. I can't imagine how Legacy players who already had every class at level 50 caps are possibly occupying their time. I'm happy to continue beating my head against a supposed "mechanic wall" (if they ever keep it up for more than a day), but this can only keep me interested for so long with little else to do.

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Originally Posted by Xilrasis

They are already walking a thin line with an incredibly dry game. I can't imagine how Legacy players who already had every class at level 50 caps are possibly occupying their time. I'm happy to continue beating my head against a supposed "mechanic wall" (if they ever keep it up for more than a day), but this can only keep me interested for so long with little else to do.

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2.1 is going to make things worse. Its a goddamned shame too, this game had some serious potential but with the lack of endgame content in 2.1 I can't imagine HC players will be interested for much longer.

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Originally Posted by Zeigus

2.1 is going to make things worse. Its a goddamned shame too, this game had some serious potential but with the lack of endgame content in 2.1 I can't imagine HC players will be interested for much longer.

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Honestly, I think the core design of the game is beautiful. Unfortunately, it isn't sustaining. I have the sad feeling that this will be a game I bench after a while and revisit in a year or two. I believe they focused TOO much on making it "Not Failure Fantasy 14" and too little on making it a healthy, long life game.

A "healthy long life game" is impossible to sell to the "give me everything yesterday"-crowd. They used to make leveling slower with plenty of gate content, so they had time to develop and release the next batch before everyone and their hamster cleared the latest released content. The difficulty was also higher, and it was not needed at the first signs of QQing. Short lived games are the norm now, everything else doesn't sell anymore.

Or developers need to understand a end game cycle of 12 to 16 weeks is too much of a wait. If you want to keep it fresh, allow new end game content every 8 week. Though this is only my opinion, I don't like the slow pace that has become the norm. The fact that we won't see a higher progression dungeon until 2.2 will make quite a few people quit the game.

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Originally Posted by Medieval

Or developers need to understand a end game cycle of 12 to 16 weeks is too much of a wait. If you want to keep it fresh, allow new end game content every 8 week. Though this is only my opinion, I don't like the slow pace that has become the norm. The fact that we won't see a higher progression dungeon until 2.2 will make quite a few people quit the game.

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This, along with other issues intrinsic to releasing a dungeon with 4 bosses.

To use an example from "That MMO," Blizzard now has the content cycle down to a science. There is a reason they release large dungeons, or multiple smaller dungeons, with relatively linear progression (given some exceptions.) Additionally, they release two modes: Normal and Heroic.

This allows for several things:

1) By releasing two different encounter modes, they technically only have to design an encounter once (On heroic), or one and a half times (Once on normal, then add for heroic) and then adjust down or up by adding or removing abilities, damage, and HP. This allows for less hardcore guilds to feel as if they are accomplishing something on a weekly basis by tackling content with a lower skill floor, while allowing hardcore guilds to cut their teeth against the bleeding edge.

2) By releasing a large number of encounters in a particular tier, you create a minimum time investment. The further you progress through the dungeon, the larger your minimum time investment to repeat this progress becomes. This means that those who raid 12 hours a week may have to devote 4 of those hours re-clearing the difficult content they have just learned, sometimes more, leaving them with less time for progress on the more difficult encounters in the tier. With a small number of bosses (Read: 4), this time investment is essentially nil after week two. There is no continual progression/learning, there is no re-progression on encounters, and there is no difficulty or time involved in repeating previously defeated content. You simply steamroll the dungeon in 20 minutes and you're back to where you were last week. More encounters also helps spread the table and differentiate groups of people for those with a competitive nature, as there are more potential roadblocks in progression to separate the pack.

3) Loot Saturation is another issue. I feel like SE took "one item for each slot for each job" and decided to create a number of encounters that evenly divided this value out. Unfortunately, this means that there is only ONE chest in ONE encounter to fill a slot for that item you want, and if you don't get it then better luck next week. There is also ZERO variety outside of mythology gear. A large number of encounters at least allows for some variance to help assist with RNG, etc, and generally to help keep people further interested by allowing greater opportunities for offspec loot or for min-maxing by picking up the BEST pieces, rather than an ACCEPTABLE piece. I love the concept of being able to play everything on one character, but the likelihood that I am able to create a set of gear to compete on more than maybe one other job with 7 other people in the group is slim to none. Hell, i've been doing Binding Coil as long as just about anyone and just last week received my first piece of Allaghan gear.

All of the factors that make tiered, linear raid content last a reasonable amount of time are missing currently in this game. I have grown tired of the core game Blizzard offers, but lets face it: They do a lot of things right.

Note: This post is opinion, and I am not stating it as fact. I am open to discussion on these points, but this is just how I feel given past and present experiences.

I definitely agree with you on all of your points, the only thing is that the game is new and there has to be a realistic expectation for content. For example, it's taken Blizzard years to develop their content cycle and get to the point where they release some form of content every few months. When WoW launched, it had zero end game; all you could do was level 1-60. Then dungeons were added, then the first raid and heroic modes weren't even added until mid-WotLK expansion.

Also, in early WoW days of 40 man raids I believe only 2-3 pieces of epic gear dropped so on that point at least this game has it right with 2 pieces per boss in an 8 man setting. RNG will always be RNG no matter how you slice it or how pieces are distributed among bosses.

Content every 8 weeks (someone else mentioned it) could work if it's a couple more turns or floors (CT) for each instance, but not enough time for any type of expansive addition. Again back to the Blizz model, after a couple months they release content but it's only daily quests. A new raid is added about 6 months after the previous one, so that's even longer than 12-16 weeks which someone thought was too long. Granted Blizz raids are usually large, but look how long it takes to develop.

My point is at least this game launched with something, most MMO's launch with nothing. In my opinion they should've delayed the game, made the open beta last longer than a weekend and ensured that it launched with CT and more bosses in BCoB....or at least maybe a couple more bosses in BCoB and more variety in the level 50 dungeon department. Basically it's just going to take time (patch 2.2) for the raiding to really get going, are people going to still be around? I hope so, I really enjoy the game and hope that they launch larger raids and develop a healthy content cycle. But it's going to take a little time to get to that point.

I agree. I do believe that as a whole, however, the industry has evolved and anyone who hopes to meet any modern release with high expectations needs to conform to these evolutions, else it turns into any other niche game.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

A "healthy long life game" is impossible to sell to the "give me everything yesterday"-crowd. They used to make leveling slower with plenty of gate content, so they had time to develop and release the next batch before everyone and their hamster cleared the latest released content. The difficulty was also higher, and it was not needed at the first signs of QQing. Short lived games are the norm now, everything else doesn't sell anymore.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0cATOGXehc

Well it still has time to conform to the evolutions of the gaming industry yes. But games haven't become easier to develop, if anything it's become harder. MMO's take years to develop and then you get into how long can they keep pouring time and money in to the game before they just have to launch it to see how well it does. So again, that circles back into my point that at least it launched with something when pretty much every MMO since WoW launched with nothing (or next to nothing) and failed.

Really though in the end, nothing can be done except to just wait and hope 2.2 isn't too far away and that it really delivers in spades. If it doesn't at that point anyone that's still around will probably quit, myself included.

Yeah, I think our DRG is actually full i90 as of completing this week's 35 minutes of raid content.

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Originally Posted by Xilrasis

All of the factors that make tiered, linear raid content last a reasonable amount of time are missing currently in this game. I have grown tired of the core game Blizzard offers, but lets face it: They do a lot of things right.

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Yes, twelve months of ICC (minus one day) and eleven of Dragon Soul were the pinnacle of raid development and everyone should seek to emulate Blizzard on their content release schedule.

Blizzard may do well with content releases during their expansions, but they fall apart at the end of their expansions.

Sorry, I may just be bitter, but their end-of-expansion raid content has been pretty terrible. I don't know about Pandaria raids, though, I quit in 5.2.