Regarding the Revision of the Prohibited Activities and Account Penalty Policy

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

World would be a better place if more people grasp this idea. :D

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But you see, that just doesn't work with these ToS. It literally says they can punish you whether you intended to be rude or not. I'll repost this example from just few hours ago. It doesn't take much to make someone feel like they might be "attacked." (The context of this image had nothing to do with him, it was just a casual reaction to something the healer did instead.)

https://i.imgur.com/qCwHzv4.png

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Originally Posted by Anselmet

LOL! And your true colors are here. Watch out now! Anger might report us all for telling him his paladin isn't using enough cds. Which btw, as sch I find highly offensive. Guess this will be a quick draw in which of us get to a GM first.

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Can we please observe polite discussion and try to get along? This should be constructive and instead you're laughing at me.

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Originally Posted by Anger

Politely teaching people that are receptive to your teaching is perfectly fine. But making someone feel bad or inflicting emotional distress on someone because you're making them feel bad for not AOEing enough, standing around(being lazy), or not using enough cool downs is not right. It's all about the way you present your self to them.

Appropriate method for assistance: Hey, would you mind if I made some suggestions regarding your Job? (if they agree then proceed)

Inappropriate method of assistance: You're just standing around 80% of the time and not doing anything. (This is derogatory and offensive - it also inflicts emotional distress)

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So what if its offensive?

Why is this a black and white issue? Such as You either have to be really polite and suger coat everything to be acceptable. Youre not allowed to snap at another player a little bit cause its wrong and offensive. I will bet you that most players would say your innappropriate method of assistance, while rude, is not in any way in needs of a GM intervention. Given more context (belligerent or players not actively engaging in content), that statement would most likely get player support. People dont like dealing with bad players who refuse to get better.

So, going back, so what if that offends a player. Calling out people for when their clearly slacking or not even trying to play better should be allowed. Like I said, there is a line we can mostly agree on. You dont need to use slurs or abusive language, ad hominems, and things like that. You dont need to belittle and berate and tear them down completely and make efforts to humiliate them. There is such a thing as excess that most people can agree with. But we also should be able to call people out AND have the maturity to distinguish between calling someone out and tearing someone down. Going for the everything has got to be polite and rosey otherwise its offensive is silly.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...czo42v-pre.jpg

Let this serve as example that what is offensive to one person is not offensive to another. Yes there are people who find this offensive should this guy Banned for his Glam choice!!! SE knows things like this will get reported so goes without saying they have a line drawn its just not specified. The change is aimed at things that are seen as offensive by most people, such as personal attacks and verbal abuse.

Before anyone ask no I ddint report him. I have no issue with how people choose to glam, find his glam rather amusing to be honest lol

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STOP!


You're under addressed, I mean... Arrest!

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Originally Posted by Aulainn

But you see, that just doesn't work with these ToS. It literally says they can punish you whether you intended to be rude or not. I'll repost this example from just few hours ago. It doesn't take much to make someone feel like they might be "attacked." (The context of this image had nothing to do with him, it was just a casual reaction to something the healer did instead.)

https://i.imgur.com/qCwHzv4.png

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And even if you were reported for that exchange, you wouldn't be cautioned, warned or banned. The GM can see the chat log, the scenario and the full context of what's going on here.

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Originally Posted by Anger

Inappropriate method of assistance: You're just standing around 80% of the time and not doing anything. (This is derogatory and offensive - it also inflicts emotional distress)

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It could also be argued that someone "not doing their job" in such a way that they are just standing around is preventing others from moving forward in the game or not rolling on items they need to leave is prohibiting play of a person. I think in general if you don't want to hurt people, politeness should include letting someone know you need a few minutes to deal with IRL instead of letting your party die.

But other than that, everyone is blowing it way out of proportion. Just be friendly and use lots of ^.^ faces and no one will ever be offended.

Thats an assumption on your part, not a statement of fact. An assumption many of us are skeptical of.

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Originally Posted by Lium

And even if you were reported for that exchange, you wouldn't be cautioned, warned or banned. The GM can see the chat log, the scenario and the full context of what's going on here.

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What? That is all the context there is to that, literally nothing else was said in that dungeon run. The GM won't see what was actually happening in the dungeon beyond the chat logs. And yes, I won't be warned or banned for this, but it is an example of how easily someone might feel uncomfortable from someone saying ANYTHING.

Anyone with a legal background wanna chime in on those added terms? Hell, was this policy change even sent to legal to make sure verbage can't be misconstrued? Cause it sure as hell lookin like it didn't with how long this is going.

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Originally Posted by Aulainn

But you see, that just doesn't work with these ToS. It literally says they can punish you whether you intended to be rude or not. I'll repost this example from just few hours ago. It doesn't take much to make someone feel like they might be "attacked." (The context of this image had nothing to do with him, it was just a casual reaction to something the healer did instead.)

https://i.imgur.com/qCwHzv4.png

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ToS also says they can ban you for any reason or no reason. There is always a bigger fish in the sea and the policy is the smaller fish.

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Originally Posted by Anger

Inappropriate method of assistance: You're just standing around 80% of the time and not doing anything. (This is derogatory and offensive - it also inflicts emotional distress)

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That would in no way be derogatory, and if the accusation is true it would not be offensive either.

Sorry, I did not realize you edited your post.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Why would the tank have to concede? How is larger pulls “obstructive behavior”? Tiraelina said that you have to deal with the hand you’re dealt with in roulettes... except apparently in the case of this healer? Where they are allowed to now dictate the pace of the tank/party? The tank is suddenly the one who has to deal, but why is this not being applied to the healer? What makes them exempt from “dealing with the hand you’re dealt with”?

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If you reverse the situation to where it is the tank that wants small pulls and it is the healer/DPS that wants bigger pull, I would say it is the healer/DPS that should probably concede. The reasoning is the same as I've stated before. Pulling more than the party can handle can cause a wipe, which would obstruct the run for the entire party.

I also only say "probably" because it is under the assumption where only two people are in disagreement. If the other party members are in agreement with one side, then there is always the option to vote kick if no one is willing to compromise.

But here's the point: If neither side wants to compromise/leave, a vote kick for both side fails because the rest of the party is neutral, and both sides decide to report the other, then I would say the one that wants to pull more would be in the wrong (especially if party has tried bigger pulls and there has been a wipe). At the end of the day, small pulls would still get the job done, even if slower.

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Originally Posted by Anger

Politely teaching people that are receptive to your teaching is perfectly fine. But making someone feel bad or inflicting emotional distress on someone because you're making them feel bad for not AOEing enough, standing around(being lazy), or not using enough cool downs is not right. It's all about the way you present your self to them.

Appropriate method for assistance: Hey, would you mind if I made some suggestions regarding your Job? (if they agree then proceed)

Inappropriate method of assistance: You're just standing around 80% of the time and not doing anything. (This is derogatory and offensive - it also inflicts emotional distress)

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So it seems that there is an area of this that we can agree on. I do not condone berating people for anything. However, simply saying:

“[DPS], can you please use your AOE ability so that things die faster?”
or
“[Tank], if you are going to pull a lot, can you please use cooldowns while doing so? You are taking a lot of damage, and they will help mitigate that.” (Or, alternatively after a wipe: “[Tank], [ability] is that boss’ tankbuster. Can you try to use a cooldown with it so that you will not get killed by it?”
or
“[Healer], Chaos isn’t doing a lot right now. Do you mind throwing some Stones/Broils/Malefics? We’ll kill him even faster with your contribution.”

Are not offensive statements. And they are not berating the player.

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Originally Posted by Final-Fantasy

STOP!


You're under addressed, I mean... Arrest!

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rofl I know why your arresting him, let me find a curtain and some ear muffs :D

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

So it seems that there is an area of this that we can agree on. I do not condone berating people for anything. However, simply saying:

“[DPS], can you please use your AOE ability so that things die faster?”
or
“[Tank], if you are going to pull a lot, can you please use cooldowns while doing so? You are taking a lot of damage, and they will help mitigate that.” (Or, alternatively after a wipe: “[Tank], [ability] is that boss’ tankbuster. Can you try to use a cooldown with it so that you will not get killed by it?”
or
“[Healer], Chaos isn’t doing a lot right now. Do you mind throwing some Stones/Broils/Malefics? We’ll kill him even faster with your contribution.”

Are not offensive statements. And they are not berating the player.

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Yes, I agree with you.

I have played a lot of MMORPGs and some people will get offended if you say " Can you play better " (obviously in different variations).

People respond better to politeness. The same can be said IRL in a work place.

Lets say someone works in a doughnut shop. Saying "You need to get these doughnuts out faster or you're fired" is pretty hostile.

But saying "Hey guys, lets work together to get these doughnuts out a little bit quicker because we're really slammed this morning!" will net better results.

Studies have shown that politeness improves efficiency.

This is going to accomplish the opposite of what they are trying to do. Instead of people working out their differences or simply blacklisting, now you will have an overly sensitive vocal minority reporting everyone every time their feelers get a little hurt. The devs won't be deciding these as it would simply be too much for them so this will be put into the customer service branch and can easily be interpreted(since many of these policies are subjective) to punish anyone that is not lock step with the SJW narrative. Thus people will communicate less, and walk on eggshells, not more. Lastly, this game already
has one of the best communities in gaming, so none of this is really needed and the previous policy was working rather well. Bad move and I hope they will come to their senses, but I doubt it. Already questioning if I should resub.

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Originally Posted by JDR

This is going to accomplish the opposite of what they are trying to do. Instead of people working out their differences or simply blacklisting, now you will have an overly sensitive vocal minority reporting everyone every time their feelers get a little hurt. The devs won't be deciding these as it would simply be too much for them so this will be put into the customer service branch and can easily be interpreted(since many of these policies are subjective) to punish anyone that is not lock step with the SJW narrative. Thus people will communicate less, and walk on eggshells, not more. Lastly, this game already
has one of the best communities in gaming, so none of this is really needed and the previous policy was working rather well. Bad move and I hope they will come to their senses, but I doubt it. Already questioning if I should resub.

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World of Warcraft has been in decline and a lot of WoW refugees have been arriving here especially with the promotions SE has been putting out.

I believe SE is trying to preserve the community and these rules are to prevent the game from turning toxic like WoW can be.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

I mean that's just your opinion, right? Do you have any further information that I haven't been made aware of? A nice distinguished line would really help to make your case here. I could see what kinds of behavior I'm not supposed to venture into, but it's so hard to tell right now.

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Why is it so difficult? Perhaps your etiquette is already questionable and that's why it's so ambiguous to you. None of these ToS changes concern me personally, or leave me wandering around aimlessly in some grey area. Do you want to know why? It's because I'm not a douche. When I log into the game I respect everyone until they give me a reason not to. And in that unfortunate case, which is VERY few in number, I simply choose to no longer associate myself with this player.

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Of course I mentioned penalties rather than bans. Those penalties will eventually add up to bans, however. Am I emotionally distressing you at the moment? I'm sorry if I am.

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Nope. Not at all. But I'll certainly point out how condescending this comment is, which is suggestive to the type of player you are in the game. Perhaps you do have to be worried after all.

I'm not some thin-skinned snowflake who uses whatever leverage I can find to get other players in trouble. I've been harassed, and stalked in this game. I've been called a slut because I refused another player's invitation to go out on a date, among other acts that would easily warrant corrective action. I didn't report any of them even though I probably should have. Not trying to sound like a Mary Sue here; I am far from one, but b-listing, setting status to busy, and/or just avoiding /tells or other means to communicate has always worked for me. It's unfortunate that these methods have not worked for others, and the devs felt like they had to intervene in our day to day activities.

I'll tell you one thing that is ambiguous to me right now though. All of these complaints throughout this thread; I am not sure if they are concerned about players living in safe spaces, or if they are indeed coming from the players living in those safe spaces.

I understand the reasoning, a simply think this will not accomplish their goal, and its unnecessary, as the FFXIV community does a pretty decent job of stopping toxicity on it's own. At least in my experience.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Q: When was the last time you walked up to someone gathering from the same nodes you are and started up a conversation? A: Every day
Q: How about they to you? A: Every other day

"Just like irl, players prefer to communicate with others they know, and not strangers."
I enjoy meeting new people... and speaking to them... ergo communicating with strangers.

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That's fine, but you understand that this isn't commonplace, correct? The questions were rhetorical because most players know this already.

That said, I do think that is really cool you reach out to other players like that, and I wish more would do so, myself included.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Perhaps you do have to be worried after all.

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I knew it.

Here's the thing no one should banned over in game talking its one thing when you harass or threaten but when your talking the most you should get is silence for x amount of time.

In todays society rules like this lead 2 innocent ppl punished over nothing. I mean today you cant wear a t shirt saying i love meat with a chicken on it without offending someone.

Obvious the community manger is aware that this will lead 2 unreasonable events otherwise he/she woulda tried 2 white knight the rules already.

I remember when i said i love zombie tacos and got report in a game because some how that offended a vegen party memeber

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And I don’t think it’s appropriate for them to refuse to actively contribute. It’s not offensive to tell someone to please AOE, especially if it’s a majority rule. In high-end content, it’s not offensive to tell a healer to contribute to DPS instead of standing around waiting for damage to occur and doing nothing. It’s also not offensive to tell a tank to please use cooldowns.

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I think it would be offensive (or at least would risk offending people) to *tell* someone to AoE. But not to *suggest* that they AoE.

When people suggest things with the implication that their suggestion is right and the other player is wrong, that's where people get offended, because it's like they're being told how to play. The stronger this implication, the worse the other player will react. Ideally, we'd all be able to give suggestions in a polite manner that doesn't imply anything. But I can admit I certainly don't practice what I preach here, as much as I'd like to.

People give can't help but give opinionated advice on a regular basis, because we all hold our strong opinions. That's why I think the vague rules are bad. People may get offended by it. Honestly, I'd get offended by someone forcefully suggesting that I use the PUG Bulwark strat because it's "better" than my optimized strat. But then, being able to report someone for saying that is silly. You can't typically blame others for expressing an opinion contrary to your own.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That's fine, but you understand that this isn't commonplace, correct? The questions were rhetorical because most players know this already.

That said, I do think that is really cool you reach out to other players like that, and I wish more would do so, myself included.

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I honestly thought that was the main appeal of MMO's for most people. Which is why I'm so invested in any subject I feel could harm that.

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Originally Posted by Lium

You sure can report them. And then sit back and watch as absolutely nothing happens to the person you reported, because the GMs will be able to tell that what you did is a perfect example of abusing the system. This is the kind of dumb example I was talking about. People screaming that the sky will fall now.

C'mon. Be an adult.

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Excuse you. Did I say you're allowed to not agree with me? And did you just assume my age? Now that I am under deep emotional stress, I'm gonna go ahead and report you.

Are you starting to see how utterly ridiculous these rules are as they are written? People don't literally think this is how it's going to go. But the rules as they are currently written are just waiting to be abused and just cater to the increasingly pervasive victim mentality of society. And that is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken

Excuse you. Did I say you're allowed to not agree with me? And did you just assume my age? Now that I am under deep emotional stress, I'm gonna go ahead and report you.

Are you starting to see how utterly ridiculous these rules are as they are written? People don't literally think this is how it's going to go. But the rules as they are currently written are just waiting to be abused and just cater to the increasingly pervasive victim mentality of society. And that is a problem.

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If you want to interpret them like that and fly way off the handle and go to extremes (like everybody else here is), then go right ahead. I would also encourage you to report me. Please do so, so you can see how utterly juvenile this kind of thinking is.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

You are problaby not in emotiobal distress. You may be upset, annoyed, etc. But as I said, if you are truly experiencing emotional distress, report and talk to a doctor. Because it's unhealthy and I know it from experience. I understand you are used to thinking of the worst case scenario. But they probably udated the rules due to thenumber of reports that did not technically infringe the ToS, but should have.

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But the whole point many of us are making in here is that you have no way of knowing if someone else is in actual emotional stress in a video game. You also have no way of knowing what will cause a specific person emotional stress if you've never played with them before. So how on earth are we supposed to know how to conduct ourselves aside from saying absolutely nothing (which someone could feasibly interpret as offensive as well). These rules theoretically leave absolutely no safe choice of conduct, since literally anything could be taken as offensive by someone. So all these rules do is completely throw out any sense of a code of conduct because there are no strict definitions given.

And don't get me wrong, I understand and completely acknowledge that very few people are going to be wrongfully punished by this system and the vast majority of players won't be affected at all by this. But it's the fact that it's even theoretically possible that people are worried about.

Lol tried out the new system. GM's are still unable to take action with the new revisions, what a joke.

"RMT good, vulgar words bad" You would think misuse of party finder to advertise RMT would be open and shut case right? Nope.

If the government changes its laws we simply abide by them. Why? Because we aren't intending to break the rules.

Just be your nice self and nothing has changed. The new rules are pretty basic.

"Don't insult people, don't stalk people, don't be toxic"

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Originally Posted by Anger

If the government changes its laws we simply abide by them. Why? Because we aren't intending to break the rules.

Just be your nice self and nothing has changed. The new rules are pretty basic.

"Don't insult people, don't stalk people, don't be toxic"

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Someone didn't read the part of the rules that state we can still get punished even if we didn't intend to break the rules.

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Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken

Someone didn't read the part of the rules that state we can still get punished even if we didn't intend to break the rules.

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Isn't that no different than saying "Ignorance of the law is not a defense"? In essence, "I didn't know what I was doing" won't fly.

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we have been noticing an increase in issues involving social media, video sites, and live stream channels

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This is SE going PC?
I have nothing to do with none of that do not put me in a same lane as everyone else who may or may not play this game.

I play the game to escape that type of stuff and for SE to do this is outright wrong, you aren't going to tell me how I am going to be everyone is supposed to be different not the same.

The game is built on meeting people experiencing adventures with each other, you ruined that, cause from this point forward I am not posting, cause 4 strikes you are out and people can dig through history and get you banned for anything they don't like.

People who justify this good luck to you, cause eventually you to will make someone angry and don't think for a second you will be safe it only takes 1 little thing to get you in trouble one word anything.

I almost don't want to get the expansion but I now have made a decision to stop posting on forums also to stop talking to people in game in order to avoid being banned cause like you said SE this generation is different and get upset about anything and everything. i'll check expansion but I notice people vanish I'll un sub until the rules have changed from being PC.

I don't do anything wrong but its better to be safe than sorry.

So good bye forums and time to become a hermit in the game.

by the way.

People can get offended the way you dress, people who stand to close to you when you are doing the same quest line think you are stalking its happened before, for those with low free company count be careful you just might be targeted for your house think about it if someone wants to join but you don't want to you are restricting their gameplay.

Rpers you should be worried about doing it in say, ive seen it im limsa few times rping in general even in LS someone doesn't like it, oh marriage gone bad probably wouldn't bother with getting married now just to be safe. start really thinking about stuff fair warning cause people do go to extremes without people knowing just to get you without you even knowing peace out people.

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Originally Posted by zztoluca

Lol tried out the new system. GM's are still unable to take action with the new revisions, what a joke.

"RMT good, vulgar words bad" You would think misuse of party finder to advertise RMT would be open and shut case right? Nope.

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Eh give it a week or so, given SE's corporate size and structure, each one of em is bound to get a dose of training before full implementation. This shit is like a warning shot and hopefully a gauging reaction on their end. Which if it is, bravo SE. Ya dun goofed and shown incompetence on a level that would make Enron blush.

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Originally Posted by Anger

Isn't that no different than saying "Ignorance of the law is not a defense"? In essence, "I didn't know what I was doing" won't fly.

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No, it is not the same thing, because the way these new rules are written it is impossible to know in advance if a particular action will break the rules.

For example, one of the things that are prohibited are "Other expressions that are offensive to another person". One cannot know in advance what another person will find offensive and be hurt by.
Oh, and it doesn't matter that you had no idea that whatever it was could possibly be seen as offensive because: "Even if it was not the intention, a penalty may be imposed if the end result was that another person was hurt or obstructed."

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

This is SE going PC?
I have nothing to do with none of that do not put me in a same lane as everyone else who may or may not play this game.

I play the game to escape that type of stuff and for SE to do this is outright wrong, you aren't going to tell me how I am going to be everyone is supposed to be different not the same.

The game is built on meeting people experiencing adventures with each other, you ruined that, cause from this point forward I am not posting, cause 4 strikes you are out and people can dig through history and get you banned for anything they don't like.

People who justify this good luck to you, cause eventually you to will make someone angry and don't think for a second you will be safe it only takes 1 little thing to get you in trouble one word anything.

I almost don't want to get the expansion but I now have made a decision to stop posting on forums also to stop talking to people in game in order to avoid being banned cause like you said SE this generation is different and get upset about anything and everything. i'll check expansion but I notice people vanish I'll un sub until the rules have changed from being PC.

I don't do anything wrong but its better to be safe than sorry.

So good bye forums and time to become a hermit in the game.

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I talk to people in the forums and the game all the time.

I've never been banned.

I've never even been warned.

I don't understand what your fear is. Using common sense and basic courtesy when interacting with others prevents problems.

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Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken

But the whole point many of us are making in here is that you have no way of knowing if someone else is in actual emotional stress in a video game. You also have no way of knowing what will cause a specific person emotional stress if you've never played with them before. So how on earth are we supposed to know how to conduct ourselves aside from saying absolutely nothing (which someone could feasibly interpret as offensive as well). These rules theoretically leave absolutely no safe choice of conduct, since literally anything could be taken as offensive by someone. So all these rules do is completely throw out any sense of a code of conduct because there are no strict definitions given.

And don't get me wrong, I understand and completely acknowledge that very few people are going to be wrongfully punished by this system and the vast majority of players won't be affected at all by this. But it's the fact that it's even theoretically possible that people are worried about.

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If you have to ask what kind of emotional stress, you're not causing it. They're not talking about minor annoyances. They don't care that someone disagreed with someone else. They're talking about actual harassment, stalking, dehumanizing, abuse, etc. The play style section is referring to things like beating people over the head with self-imposed hunt rules expecting everyone else to follow them. The entire FATE fiasco with Dark Devices. These rules are built off things that occurred.

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Originally Posted by Anger

If the government changes its laws we simply abide by them. Why? Because we aren't intending to break the rules.

Just be your nice self and nothing has changed. The new rules are pretty basic.

"Don't insult people, don't stalk people, don't be toxic"

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Lol this doesn't just punish ppl who insult,stalk or rude aka toxic ppl

Regardless 2 your example if the government creates a unreasonable law you fight it till your last breath or you win..

Literally the way the rules are worded you can say "muffins suck" and get banned and yes a gm will ban you over that if a person says it hurt their feelings

The rules are worded so the majority if they don't like a person for what ever reason be it them being dark different view point that they can get that person banned over nothing

The changes are fine, covering areas that should be covered and covering areas that need to be covered. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Literally the way the rules are worded you can say "muffins suck" and get banned and yes a gm will ban you over that if a person says it hurt their feelings

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Let's put that theory to the test, shall we?

Ahem.

Muffins suck. Change my mind.

So does pineapple pizza. I hate that too. It's wrong. :cool:

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Lol this doesn't just punish ppl who insult,stalk or rude aka toxic ppl

Regardless 2 your example if the government creates a unreasonable law you fight it till your last breath or you win..

Literally the way the rules are worded you can say "muffins suck" and get banned and yes a gm will ban you over that if a person says it hurt their feelings

The rules are worded so the majority if they don't like a person for what ever reason be it them being dark different view point that they can get that person banned over nothing

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They don't even have to say it hurt their feelings, just that it's at odds with the opinions they hold. The rules explicitly state that rejecting someone's opinion(hating muffins is mutually exclusive with liking them) is grounds for punishment.