Tank dps harrasment

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

/shrug

I can see when I'm losing an argument. Very well...my own definition of what I see as a standard pull is obviously different. I can admit when I lose an argument. My point still remains on 'DPS pulling for the tank'.

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I was also curious about the differing experiences so I asked Novice Network what they see a majority of the time when they queue for DR:Ex on anything except tank and their result was similar to mine. Not rubbing it in, just saying I wanted to find out if my experience was unique.

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(On that note, I just noticed my signature just up and completely disappeared. Why?)

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Sometimes when you edit your post quickly, the signature gets removed. It's a weird forum bug that's been around for ages.

So, this thread was buried.

What was the reason for it to come back?

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Originally Posted by Altena

I was also curious about the differing experiences so I asked Novice Network what they see a majority of the time when they queue for DR:Ex on anything except tank and their result was similar to mine. Not rubbing it in, just saying I wanted to find out if my experience was unique.



Sometimes when you edit your post quickly, the signature gets removed. It's a weird forum bug that's been around for ages.

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It hasn't shown up in a good chunk of my posts lately, even before I start making edits. It's weird...but nothing that I'm too worried about...needed to update my profile anyhow.

I don't think you're rubbing it in. I just have a losing argument, is all. :)

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Originally Posted by Altena

Tanks getting kicked for not doing enough damage..... In an Expert dungeon? I call bullsh~..

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While not the reason I state when a I initiate the kick, if we are 15 minutes into the dungeon and things are going a tad slow for my taste be it due to pull size or a members dps being to low. I do not keep a record though I would say about half of the vote goes through, if not so be it. If the vote fails and I am bothered by the pace normally I will just leave.

I personally do not think I am the only impatient ass hat playing this game. So I am sure other players do get kicked for their play no matter the role.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I do not know what it looks like on Primal, but on Aether, I've seen more 2-3 mob pulls than I have with 'big' pulls. Depending on the dungeon, 3 mobs aren't really big pulls, and some places are very difficult to even get a massive pull on and survive consistently. Again, I will be patient with DPS pulling for me twice, maybe a third time if I'm feeling generous. But unless the healer consents, I will not pull anymore than I already do and if DPS continue to pull like this (by this point, I will have spoken up), then I will not take any aggro. They do it again, they're getting shirked. If they again pull ahead of me, I'm vote-kicking.

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Aether resident here. I've yet to see an Expert Roulette without mass pulls where the tank wasn't quickly vote-kicked and replaced within a couple minutes while the DPS continued just as quickly tanking on their own in the meantime.

On the other hand, I've not once seen a DPS vote-kicked for early pulling, and rarely even a warning given if their resources depend on it and the mobs were drawn through the tank for ease of collection and Diversion was used if more than a couple GCDs were spent. That's on the tank at that point, generally by the tank's own admission.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

DPS have no business pulling ahead of the tank..regardless of timers or chains or stacks...unless this is a party with a confidence in handling the situation as needed..not randoms.
Yes it sucks...but when you pull ahead of the tank and the tank is in mid-stride unable to compensate...and you wipe out..guess whose to blame....sure as hell not the tank. (And yes if they are pulling ahead they should know how to drag the aggro back to the tank - problem is..its a bit of a coin toss - again...communication - if the tank knows whats up - the tank can plan for it...you ambush the tank with an pull ahead - the party will likely suffer and worse..wipe out - I've seen this so many times it makes me cry a little on the inside >.<;;; )

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Literally have never seen a wipe because of this in the 3+ years I've been playing this game. All it takes for a tank to rip aggro back if a DPS pulls is a single AOE enmity move, aggro gen in tank stance is bonkers in this game. And I'd also like to say, having leveled all 3 tanks to 70 I never had a DPS pull ahead of me. I'm inclined to say that if a DPS pulls ahead of you, you simply aren't keeping a good pace as a tank.

I have seen this happening very few times when I wasn't tanking, and even then there wasn't wipes (unless multiple mobs are attacking a DPS player, it will take ages to kill them) or diva tank behavior of "you pull you tank". The tank would simply do a single enmity move and get aggro back.
Again I'm here wondering if I'm playing the same game as the people on the OF, who so often get trolled and have horrible DF experiences with speedrunners and elitists.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Aether resident here. I've yet to see an Expert Roulette without mass pulls where the tank wasn't quickly vote-kicked and replaced within a couple minutes while the DPS continued just as quickly tanking on their own in the meantime.

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Hence another issue that I have. If DPS themselves are kicking because a tank won't pull more, that's some BS. Now, if the healer is fine with it, if the tank doesn't want to do it simply because they don't want to...then that's a different matter. If they're uncomfortable with large pulls, they don't deserve to be vote-kicked because of a bunch of impatient players. How does that get anything done? If they just don't want to, like I said earlier, that's another matter - and even still, that's highly dependant on how comfortable the tank is, just as it's dependent on healers being comfortable with healing a large pull.

I have vote-kicked a DPS for doing early pulling excessively. But they were given fair warning multiple times and the healer was still learning their role. There's also the issue of a huge chunk (not majority) of DPS littering the DF who do not use any aggro-dumping skills.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Hence another issue that I have. If DPS themselves are kicking because a tank won't pull more, that's some BS. Now, if the healer is fine with it, if the tank doesn't want to do it simply because they don't want to...then that's a different matter. If they're uncomfortable with large pulls, they don't deserve to be vote-kicked because of a bunch of impatient players.

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Thing is for vote to go through two out of the three players need to say yes. So clearly majority were not fine for it. Ones role does nor provide protection from the consensus formed by the group. Vote kick is just a quicker means to see if the group is in agreement.

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Originally Posted by Awha

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Alright, let's go ahead and break this down. Who is in the wrong for this scenario: Ala Mhigo. Tank admits they're not fully geared and is running Ala Mhigo to pick up gear before they complete Shinryu normal. At the start, they say they are not comfortable with large pulls while in current gear. Healer says they're still getting used to healing and would prefer smaller pulls anyhow. Both DPS say nothing. Pace is generally a pull or two, DPS are rarely using AOE. One of the DPS asks for larger pulls, tank says not this time. 15 minutes in, they clear the second boss and while tank is waiting for healer to regenerate some MP, one of the DPS pulls the next mob leading up to the first laser gate. Tank takes aggro and asks that DPS not to pull ahead. DPS says "next time pull bigger or don't tank" and initiates a vote kick. The healer says no, the other DPS says yes.

Does that make it right or fair?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

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What a player thinks is fair or right is subjective and honestly does not matter. All that matters is if the vote passed or not. Clearly the vote passed so at this time the healer has a choice to make leave or go on with the run with a new tank. Hell if the tank feels their kick was not justified they are free to report it and if they were right who knows maybe the GM will take action.

For vote kick to work their must be a consensus, if two people say yes and one person says no. The one in the minority has a choice to make stay with the group thus conforming to the consensus or leaving. Same could be said if the vote fails. Either conform or leave.

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Originally Posted by Awha

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You know as well as many of us that a GM will definitely not take action in that scenario due to 'differing playstyles'.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

You know as well as many of us that a GM will definitely not take action in that scenario due to 'differing playstyles'.

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Nevertheless, people tend to take kicks personal, and to be frank most the time it just boils down to as you said differing play styles.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Nevertheless, people tend to take kicks personal, and to be frank most the time it just boils down to as you said differing play styles.

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I haven't been vote-kicked in...hmm...I think since my trial period when I first started early last year, but yes, I do take kicks personally, especially over what I view as the most trivial of things.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

. . . yes, I do take kicks personally, especially over what I view as the most trivial of things.

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For the kick to pass it must not have been trivial for those that clicked yes. Pass or fail the majority dictate the flow of the group not a single person. I think it is selfish to expect a group of players to put up with something because the minority feels it is wrong and unfair to remove a person for differing playstyles.

While I assume you did not mean anything but it I do find it funny that I never mentioned you personally but you felt the need to open up with how you have not been kicked since you started. Not getting vote kicked is easy. I mean giving players a reason to kick is the hard part. I mean I have not played the game for a couple of weeks, but if I recall votes open up at the 15 min mark right.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Pass or fail the majority dictate the flow of the group not a single person.

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In regards to kicks, that is incorrect. Majority means more than 50% of a given population. In a group of 4, a majority thus means 3 people, as 2/4 is exactly 50% and thus neither majority nor minority. The vote however only needs 2 to pass.

Therefore, kicks may be but aren't necessarily decided by the majority. The voice of the person to be booted is not considered, which means that in the case of an even split, it is not the majority that dictates, but the side that first jumps to the boot button.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

In regards to kicks, that is incorrect. Majority means more than 50% of a given population. In a group of 4, a majority thus means 3 people, as 2/4 is exactly 50% and thus neither majority nor minority. The vote however only needs 2 to pass.

Therefore, kicks may be but aren't necessarily decided by the majority. The voice of the person to be booted is not considered, which means that in the case of an even split, it is not the majority that dictates, but the side that first jumps to the boot button.

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English is not my native tongue, but majority means the greater number right? Or are the other tiers of definitions superfluous. This one is an honest question.

So not counting the vote of the party that the vote was posed against. Between the three two out of the three are required for the vote to pass. So that means that the majority dictates if the kick is successful.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

In regards to kicks, that is incorrect. Majority means more than 50% of a given population. In a group of 4, a majority thus means 3 people, as 2/4 is exactly 50% and thus neither majority nor minority. The vote however only needs 2 to pass.

Therefore, kicks may be but aren't necessarily decided by the majority. The voice of the person to be booted is not considered, which means that in the case of an even split, it is not the majority that dictates, but the side that first jumps to the boot button.

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Yeah, in 4 person content, the only people voting for a kick are 3 people. So it's 2/3 required to kick, which still falls under "majority" because its a "majority of the voting participants".

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Originally Posted by Awha

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This is namely because you started responding to me having an issue with players doing vote kicks in situations that I feel are very petty in nature. DPS do not dictate the pace - the tank does. Of course, if all three players want a faster run, then the tank should probably step up their game, unless they stated at the beginning of the dungeon that they either wanted to go slow or that they aren't used to big pulls or wall to wall pulls at the beginning of a run. If the tank is being considerate to the healer who is either clearly struggling to keep pace or healer requests it because of lack of experience with big heals, and the two DPS initiate a vote-kick, then yes, that is trivial. It is not hard to come up with a reason for a vote kick at all. All the justification one needs is 'different play-style' and as long as there is no harassment in the chat box, there's hardly a thing that a GM can do if its not excessive vote-kicking in multiple instances in a short amount of time, and even then, I'm not entirely sure if a GM would take action without offending logs.

I dunno how what I stated just now and in at least one other post is selfish. One cannot force a tank to get comfortable - they have to do trial by fire and pressuring them into making large pulls during a run is not going to make them more comfortable tanking. One cannot force a healer to suddenly jump from being very uncomfortable with healing a massive pull to constantly doing it in an entire run after they've stated they are not at that point where they can do heals like that, especially if they're used to more measured pulls. If two players want to do a slower pull and the other two players want a quick run with massive pulls, there is no minority here.

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Originally Posted by Awha

English is not my native tongue, but majority means the greater number right?

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That much is correct, but the point is that the majority of the voting participants does not equal the majority of the group.

Say, for example, there is a group of four people. Two people in a party want small pulls and two people want big pulls. Therefore, neither side has a majority, it's exactly 2vs2. Now, there is a clash and someone initiates a kick. Which side wins? Since both parties have the exact number of votes, neither side should win in a democratic vote.

I can tell you who will win however: The more trigger happy one. Neither side has a majority, but by initiating a kick, you silence a portion of the opposition, therefore either side can win simply by being the first to initiate the vote-kick.

And that means that kicks are not necessarily decided by the majority of the group, because having a majority in the group is not necessary for a kick to pass. You can pass kicks without a majority so long as you are faster than the other side.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

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As someone mentioned before wouldn't it fall under the majority of the voting participants. So I guess I should have just reworded it as such that the pace is dictated by the majority of the voting participants. Within that context a majority and minority can still be established. Also wouldn't half the party be considered majority because the player being voted against does not count. Making it two votes needed to pass leaving the one as the minority since the player being voted against does not count.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

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You are right no one should force another player to do something they are not comfortable with. I will admit what I should have said was the pace is pace is dictated by the majority of the voting participants. Also doesn't that also go to show that one should not take the vote personal, if you want to take that it is RNG based and most the time based off who gets the vote off first at the point no reason to get upset just so happened the player lost the roll.

Overall I not understand why it has to be so complicated, if a vote does not go your way either make the choice to stay or leave. I mean sure it sucks when a group pushes a players that are clearly struggling but if the person struggling is not happy they have the option to leave. Like I said I have no logged into the game for a couple of weeks, but it is not like we can kick players at the start. If 15 min pass and say you are the struggling player ( not saying that you struggle ) you either start a vote to kick one of the players that is making your life hard, or leave. By no means should anyone force their play style on another. I mean would it be nice if people were more understanding sure, but is it necessary or reasonable to expect players to be understanding not really.

Normally when I tank I ask the group if they are okay with larger pulls if not I just say thanks and wish them all the best and eat the timer. Though sometimes I start off okay with a slower pace but grow impatient that is when I start a vote if it passes awesome, if not I have to make a choice adjust or leave. Normally I adjust, but if it bothers me enough I just leave. It is not hard to find a reason to kick someone, but it is also very easy to avoid getting kicked since truth be told many players are expecting perfect play. In the end I do agree with you that people should be more considerate towards others on both fronts.

It is just a consequence of having 4 player groups. Other games usually go with 5 person groups with 4 votes, and 3 needed to pass in normal circumstances which makes it a bit more fair and an actual majority.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

It is just a consequence of having 4 player groups. Other games usually go with 5 person groups with 4 votes, and 3 needed to pass in normal circumstances which makes it a bit more fair and an actual majority.

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while that's technically true, I can be more technical and say confidently I've been kicked from groups, over the years (started in 2.55), less than maybe 1 of every 100 duty roulettes, which is less than 1% of total runs. And during HW pre-60, I honestly didn't know how rotations worked and remember getting kicked 1-2 times.

the vote kicking isn't perfect, i get it, but i think it's not a huge issue.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

while that's technically true, I can be more technical and say confidently I've been kicked from groups, over the years (started in 2.55), less than maybe 1 of every 100 duty roulettes, which is less than 1% of total runs. And during HW pre-60, I honestly didn't know how rotations worked and remember getting kicked 1-2 times.

the vote kicking isn't perfect, i get it, but i think it's not a huge issue.

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I was more replying to the 2v2 fairness thing the other posters were talking about not that I think the vote kicking system is a huge issue.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

It is just a consequence of having 4 player groups. Other games usually go with 5 person groups with 4 votes, and 3 needed to pass in normal circumstances which makes it a bit more fair and an actual majority.

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Yeah it is a less then ideal situation, but I do think people are arguing semantics when it comes to the whole majority vs minority thing. You are right would be nice if groups were an odd number, might also help with DPS queue times.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Hence another issue that I have. If DPS themselves are kicking because a tank won't pull more, that's some BS. Now, if the healer is fine with it, if the tank doesn't want to do it simply because they don't want to...then that's a different matter. If they're uncomfortable with large pulls, they don't deserve to be vote-kicked because of a bunch of impatient players. How does that get anything done? If they just don't want to, like I said earlier, that's another matter - and even still, that's highly dependant on how comfortable the tank is, just as it's dependent on healers being comfortable with healing a large pull.

I have vote-kicked a DPS for doing early pulling excessively. But they were given fair warning multiple times and the healer was still learning their role. There's also the issue of a huge chunk (not majority) of DPS littering the DF who do not use any aggro-dumping skills.

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Doesn't a vote kick require a unanimous (3/4 members or 3/3 voters) vote? As all vote kicks I've seen have been 3/3, it's been hard to check.

My point isn't to say that it's deserved, only that our anecdotal evidence, being polar opposites, certainly doesn't point at any sense of (or against) job security for tanks just by they're being tanks (or any other role's for that matter), and that the disbenefits of kicking someone who refuses to challenge themselves upon request (which I've yet to see made, nor have made myself, without sufficient gear) -- deservedly or not -- can outweigh the disbenefits. I've yet to see anyone be kicked for failing to do something without blatant refusal to meet the requests of the other members, but I've seen plenty of replacements when someone -- generally a tank -- plays the "what you gonna do about it?" card.

It's a matter of whichever 3 players the tank joins. No more, no less.

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Originally Posted by Awha

As someone mentioned before wouldn't it fall under the majority of the voting participants.

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If it takes only a majority, not unanimous vote, it cannot require a majority decision by the party, because you automatically deny the vote of whomever you target.

It may seem fair enough among 4 complete and non-partisan strangers, but have even one attached person apart from the victim of the vote, and it quickly would feel rigged, or as Zojha said, where first to shoot wins.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If it takes only a majority, not unanimous vote, it cannot require a majority decision by the party, because you automatically deny the vote of whomever you target.

It may seem fair enough among 4 complete and non-partisan strangers, but have even one attached person apart from the victim of the vote, and it quickly would feel rigged, or as Zojha said, where first to shoot wins.

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Within the system we have one person is not considered, so at this point I think we are arguing semantics since being as one persons vote is not considered so between the remaining three the majority is needed for a vote to pass. It is not a perfect system, but nevertheless a majority is still needed for the vote to pass since the person the vote is against does not count towards the equation. They can feel slighted, but does not change the fact that among their remaining three members of the group if the vote passes it means that outside your vote the majority were not pleased with whatever action that lead to the vote in the first place.

I understand that I should not have said that the choice is based off the party as a whole, but that is why I switched over to majority of the voting participants. Since one person is taken out of the vote. So it comes down to the persons peers to make a choice for the collective.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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In 4-mans, a vote-kick only requires 2 players; in 8-mans, only 4 players need to say yes. I dunno when my quotes starting turning into an advocacy for tanks having role security in an instance, but let me clear this up right now that I have not suggested that at all. The example that's being quoted is just a tank example - I'd have done one for healers and one for DPS if this were the appropriate thread for it. So...does your point still stand if, since you quoted my example (we're sticking with that for now), two DPS say no and want to kick the tank for not pulling wall-to-wall whereas the healer in this situation is admittedly not ready for large pulls.

The more annoying thing, regarding voting majorities, is that in alliance you only need to have group of 5 to have "voting security" against the 19 others, because only one party takes part into the vote kick. I have had such troll groups which destroy the run for the whole alliance and can't be got rid of.