Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

There is a thing about quantity and quality. If you bring enough statements in the same line in a large enough sample

---

But how do you bring that evidence? Yet people can see here the attitudes towards it that it isnt a choice any more like ill vote kick etc. Isnt that evidence of what is happenning? Unless our thoughts, feelings and experiences arnt valued or credited because they cant be measured. Several people on this thread have stated it shouldnt be forced, some have said they dont like dps. Minority or not it still exists. Plus theres not many kind of brave enough to bring an opposing view here. Its quite aggressively put down, just like the force to dps is aggressively enforced. some dont want the confrontation of it. Aggressively enforced like, exclusion, threats not overt ones no, but you know if you dont do it what will happen. Subjective experience is valued btw in study just to say. And with that reply Im done cos it is a loop

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

But how do you bring that evidence? Yet people can see here the attitudes towards it that it isnt a choice any more like ill vote kick etc. Isnt that evidence of what is happenning? Unless our thoughts, feelings and experiences arnt valued or credited because they cant be measured. Several people on this thread have stated it shouldnt be forced, some have said they dont like dps. Minority or not it still exists. Plus theres not many kind of brave enough to bring an opposing view here. Its quite aggressively put down, just like the force to dps is aggressively enforced. some dont want the confrontation of it. Aggressively enforced like, exclusion, threats not overt ones no, but you know if you dont do it what will happen. Subjective experience is valued btw in study just to say. And with that reply Im done cos it is a loop

---

For this controversy in particular it is quite simple: You don't.

Prior to the introduction of the Hall of the Novice neither end of the spectrum had any form of evidence. Be it an abstract or concrete one. But ever since and with that the hinting towards damage contribution as a healer, the debate went heavily in favor of the "Healer can and should DPS" side of the argument. While the devs did not make any form of statement directly, the introduction of the Hall of the Novice with the line in question hints towards doing damage as a healer. After all; the Hall of the Novice is a feature that teaches players how to handle the game for their role in particular.

Of course, since you've mentioned that healer damage "isn't intended by the developers", find a source where they explicitly mentioned this. If you're entirely confident on this matter, it's your job to back it up with sources (as evidence). You can try browsing through the translated Famitsu interviews, for example.

I've also mentioned a few posts back that this topic hit the wall before it even started. Simply due to the community adopting healer DPS as a meta. It takes the majority for a meta to settle and, in a sense, a democracy. And for the minority democracy is, or can be experienced as, a dictatorship.

Best advice I can offer you on this matter is to plant the seed of idea into new players before the meta mentality sets in. Become a mentor and, well, mentor novices. But please do so without poisoning them yourself by being entirely against healer DPS. Which would be the other extreme end of this controversy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LuckiGoLucki

snip

---

Don't you think it's a little childish to be kicking someone over something as minor as not using offensive spells as a healer? They are not causing a wipe, they are not trolling the party, they are just not using offensive spells. If they're kicking someone over something that minor, maybe it's them who should be taking a look at themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Don't you think it's a little childish to be kicking someone over something as minor as not using offensive spells as a healer? They are not causing a wipe, they are not trolling the party, they are just not using offensive spells. If they're kicking someone over something that minor, maybe it's them who should be taking a look at themselves.

---

There's always a few babysteps when it comes to finding the windows where DPS for your job(AST/WHM/SCH) is applicable, considering you're also keeping the raid alive. Once those windows are found, you'll be able to contribute better DPS. But honestly not using offensive spells is not a problem; it's just people want faster runs(which Healer DPS DOES indeed contribute to) and also phase skips. Healer DPS also helps clears at times when at an iLv lower than what's required(pre-made 1st week Alexander Savage).

But once again, you can argue about developer intent, what a healer is or "should be", or whether people should be "allowed" to play without DPSng all you want. It changes nothing. DPSing is the only way you can meaningfully contribute to your party outside of your incredibly light healing duties. The developers have done nothing to increase the healing burden (and they seem very unlikely to change that) and despite having methods to do so, have not done anything to stem the flow of healer DPS (heck, they encourage it).

Saying that healers should get a free pass to forgo DPSing tells me that you hold healers to a much lower standard of contribution than any other class type, which just doesn't jive. If you're okay with healers not DPSing, then you should be equally okay with ice mages, dragoons who only use their jumps, or ninjas that only throw daggers and fuma shuriken. They too can play how they want, and they're doing the minimum "requirement" of their role (ie contributing damage. Nobody ever said it had to be high!), right?

You can't be forced to play a specific way by someone, sure, but they are well within their rights to start a votekick if you refuse to equally contribute to your party.

Well I believe we found the root of the problem for the most part. People want everything to be fast, that will not always happen. And to the other person, you're contributing to your team if you're keeping them alive. Trying to connect a healer not dpsing to an ice mage, dragoons who only use their jumps, or ninja's who only throw daggers..basically DPS classes who are not doing as much damage as possible..that's illogical. They are DPS, they are supposed to be doing as much damage as they possibly can. Hence the term DPS or damage dealers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Well I believe we found the root of the problem for the most part. People want everything to be fast, that will not always happen. And to the other person, you're contributing to your team if you're keeping them alive. Trying to connect a healer not dpsing to an ice mage, dragoons who only use their jumps, or ninja's who only throw daggers..basically DPS classes who are not doing as much damage as possible..that's illogical. They are DPS, they are supposed to be doing as much damage as they possibly can. Hence the term DPS or damage dealers.

---

It's not quite the same for healing, though. Damage, be it low, average, or high, is still "useful damage" as either form reaches the ultimate goal: The death of the target. Healing is a whole different spectrum however:
Too little and it will have consequences (usually death)
on par with the incoming damage is ideal
Too much is simply useless (overhealing)

Overhealing wouldn't necessarily be a problem if eHP would bloat accordingly with the overhealing. But this is not the case. When not including anything else and healing alone, you'd generate time gaps between each healing spell used to stay on par with the incoming damage if your healing output ceiling simply blows away the incoming damage.

IttyBitty mentioned "equal contribution", which is also something mentioned more than a few times already in this topic. If DPS jobs are supposed to do as you mentioned:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

They are DPS, they are supposed to be doing as much damage as they possibly can.

---

Which would mean they'd have to fill every single GCD they have with a meaningful skill in a particular order. Thus very little idle time in between each action. Should a healer have a free pass on performing half the amount of GCDs used compared to other roles then? IttyBitty's post (and every other similar before) makes sense on the premises of equality. A more extreme example would be Scholars in a low level dungeon (Totorak or earlier) and auto-follow someone and just watch Netflix. The fairy, when the scholar is sufficiently geared, is enough to fulfill the healing requirement for those dungeons. Would you accept this kind of behaviour?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

snip

---

A SCH afking and letting the fairy do the healing is not the same thing as a person physically being there and doing the healing themselves. While one is something I 100% understand to be kicked on because they are not even there, they are just following someone letting the AI do the healing for them. The other is just a person that decides they don't want to DPS. I have done 24 man raids where I was the only healer DPSing while the other just focused solely on healing yet I didn't care, nor did anyone else in the party. Or so it seems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Don't you think it's a little childish to be kicking someone over something as minor as not using offensive spells as a healer? They are not causing a wipe, they are not trolling the party, they are just not using offensive spells. If they're kicking someone over something that minor, maybe it's them who should be taking a look at themselves.

---

So first, healers shouldn't be kicked if they don't want to use offensive spells. Hmmm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

A SCH afking and letting the fairy do the healing is not the same thing as a person physically being there and doing the healing themselves. While one is something I 100% understand to be kicked on because they are not even there, they are just following someone letting the AI do the healing for them.

---

But also, SCH who only heals with their fairy, should be kicked. Hmmm.

What about a SCH who doesn't want to use offensive spells but their fairy is able to cover 100% of the healing? (Spoiler: You're being super illogical in your arguments and should really rethink your approach.)

Can't believe we are still talking about this. It's your character so play how you want. I am a healer main and I dps or heal only depending on my mood. I never had someone call me out that I should be doing one or the other. Well this one time this tank said I was in dps stance to much and needed to help our AST heal haha. Anyway I think contributing with dps is fine. Just don't turn on CS and dps without it. Most healers do it. Yoshi P already stated that they don't create content requiring healer dps so if you get someone yelling at you and calling you bad just dps a little bit without CS on and I assure you those elitist will shut their mouth. Even if people use parsers as long as they see some dps numbers by healers very little they won't complain. I think people just want to see you use your entire tool kit and not just stand around. So the secret is dps a little without CS on and you will be fine :) take care loves!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitfox

snip

---

I don't understand what exactly is so hard to tell the difference between two different things. One is a person just not using offensive spells, the other is someone who is going afk and letting the AI do the work for them. The person who is not using offensive spells is not afk, they're not letting some AI do the work, they are doing something, maybe not 100% of the time, but they are still NOT AFK. I don't understand how is that such a hard thing to grasp. I don't get it, its something so minor but people here blow it up and over exaggerate and overreact about it. Out of all the things to bother people, a person not using offensive spells on a class that it's not even mandatory is enough to throw some people into a fit. The fact that people use the most loosely connected examples to try to justify kicking over this is depressing. But whatever works for you people here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bounddreamer

The conjurer quest line is literally about how bad and wrong it is for a conjurer to ONLY heal and never use the offensive spells in their toolkit.

---

Not even in the slightest. That tired screenshot that gets posted of Sylphie saying she only wants to heal is that she is using her own life force to power her spells rather than get her power from nature around her. Brother E-Sumi discourages her from healing because he doesn't want her to kill herself and she says that line.

The level 50 white mage quest has you heal a tree. You can help with the mobs attacking but the NPCs can handle it. The 60 quest pits you against an undead dragon. Again, you can help with the mob but the NPCs can handle it. Your job is healing the corrupted aether so it can finally be defeated.

Our quests are based around healing and make it clear that offensive capabilities are there for when the situation might call for them, but we're healers first and foremost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

I don't understand what exactly is so hard to tell the difference between two different things. One is a person just not using offensive spells, the other is someone who is going afk and letting the AI do the work for them. The person who is not using offensive spells is not afk, they're not letting some AI do the work, they are doing something, maybe not 100% of the time, but they are still NOT AFK. I don't understand how is that such a hard thing to grasp. I don't get it, its something so minor but people here blow it up and over exaggerate and overreact about it. Out of all the things to bother people, a person not using offensive spells on a class that it's not even mandatory is enough to throw some people into a fit. The fact that people use the most loosely connected examples to try to justify kicking over this is depressing. But whatever works for you people here.

---

How do you tell a difference between a SCH who is afk and one who is "just healing" with their fairy? Rather, why do you care, if the fairy is able to handle the healing? What difference does it make if they're afk or not? It's not a loosely connected example because SCH's fairy is able to heal 95% of the content in the game.

There are two unrelated points that get debated whenever this comes up.

You are welcome to heal however you want. No argument there. You can't make someone do something that they don't already want to do. The fact that there are so many here who have apparently dug in their heals [sic] and refused to dps is testament to that.

I don't really see it as a major obstacle to clearing anything that's presently out. At max gear level, the dps checks are straightforward enough that they allow for cross-compensation by more skilled players. A "main healer" who doesn't output any dps is probably less of a burden to the group than a "main tank" who sits in Shield Oath and just uses their enmity combo. Neither is optimal, but players generally expect more from their tanks.

You might get a bit of flak for not dpsing as a healer, but generally speaking, your team can work around you, especially on easier fights. Stoneskin yourself and move on.

That's not actually the point that people are interested in debating, however.

What you cannot do, is claim that a healer who doesn't output any dps is as skilled as one who knows how to safely push their dps. If two healers are mechanically capable of clearing the same fight, the one who does so while maintaining higher dps is the better healer, no contest. They just understand the timing windows in the fight significantly better - that's where your CS uptime comes from. If players are looking to clear fights faster and more comfortably, they're going to inevitably go to the healer who is confident enough to dps while still meeting the healing checks of the fight. Sorry, not sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

A SCH afking and letting the fairy do the healing is not the same thing as a person physically being there and doing the healing themselves.

---

Is it really not, though? A group can't finish the duty normally when neither healer are present. Be it a White Mage that (only) heals manually or a Scholar that lets the fairy do it. The end result is that in case of either that the duty can be completed. And in case neither healer are putting effort into damage contribution, the clearing speed/time is roughly the same. Kicking one for putting in no effort in comparison who puts in a little effort is one of the very base reasoning why healers should be contributing in damage: Effort, or to be more precise equality in effort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't really see it as a major obstacle to clearing anything that's presently out.

You might get a bit of flak for not dpsing as a healer, but generally speaking, your team can work around you, especially on easier fights
What you cannot do, is claim that a healer who doesn't output any dps is as skilled as one who knows how to safely push their dps

---

This is similar to how I've always approached the 'healer dps' debate. My own personal opinions aside, I don't really care if a healer isn't dps'ing during EX Roulette or A12 normal. I might give them the evil eye through the TV Screen a bit, but is it really that big a deal in such content? Having to spend an extra two minutes in a video-game dungeon really doesn't mean anything when people have 80+ year lifespans. and half the time I barely notice that extra time.

You won't be considered a good healer by any means if you aren't using Cleric Stance. But so what? Some people just don't want to be The Ultimate Eorzean Healer. Why should they if they don't enjoy it? As long as they don't attempt difficult content that requires a good healer (EX Trials, Savage, etc) then it makes no difference to me. As long as they're making some sort of effort and not flat-out AFK then is it really such a big deal?

Disclaimer: the rest of my discussion is purely based on my own experiences and opinions. You'd think this would be self-evident, but I feel more and more need to add this onto anything I say when posting in the forums.

In all honesty, there's only two reasons I always try to maximize my dps as a healer. Firstly, is that I always feel like people are judging me or think I'm stupid / lazy when I'm not doing the absolute best on whichever class I'm playing. This is just a personal thing.

The second is the more self-evident one is that there's literally nothing else to do as a healer. Trust me, I've tried to run EX Roulettes without using Cleric Stance, and I can't ever get past the first or second pull without switching Cleric Stance on purely out of boredom.

The irony is that - to me - DPS'ing as a healer is just as boring as standing around doing nothing. I don't personally understand how it makes someone a 'great healer'; you're only locked into it for 5 seconds and every healer can provide healing whilst in Cleric Stance anyway (Regen / Fairy / Mitigating Damage), so personally I'm confused about where the 'great skill requirements' come from. But obviously this is just personal opinion.

Frankly, I just don't like Cleric Stance. I'd prefer to spend my time buffing the party than spamming nukes.

Ultimately, I'm still of the opinion that this entire debate could be resolved by having more varied playstyles between healers. Everybody wins. They can go a dps-healer if they want to, or a support-healer if they'd prefer not to dps, or a dps-healer with some support abilities if they'd prefer a middle ground.

I just don't understand why it has to be one or the other. The developers of the game have done many innovative things in the past; why can't we add accomodating the playstyles of all players to this list?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Is it really not, though? A group can't finish the duty normally when neither healer are present. Be it a White Mage that (only) heals manually or a Scholar that lets the fairy do it. The end result is that in case of either that the duty can be completed. And in case neither healer are putting effort into damage contribution, the clearing speed/time is roughly the same.

---

I have stated thi before but will repeat even if you are just watching health bars you have to still be 'on call' at any moment to heal, some could argue this is mental effort you need to be 'present' in more than one capacity. Now in the real world you often get paid for being on call out duty, because its not the same as relaxing and doing your own thing. Its really not the same as being afk in my opinion, or doing nothing at all. Maybe the effort is more mental than physical, cant be measured though. When I play tank I think its more mental effort than physical

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

This is similar to how I've always approached the 'healer dps' debate. My own personal opinions aside, I don't really care if a healer isn't dps'ing during EX Roulette or A12 normal. I might give them the evil eye through the TV Screen a bit, but is it really that big a deal in such content?


The irony is that - to me - DPS'ing as a healer is just as boring as standing around


I just don't understand why it has to be one or the other.

---

I agree with that and especially the points of why its considered so brilliantly amazing to do both if its so 'easy'. I dont like cleric either, its an awkward mechanic and doesnt feel like it should be there, to me, but thats my opinion :) and 6 out of 7 people I talk to about it dont like it either. I agree the battle system could be worked on to accommodate everyone's choice of play

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

I have stated thi before but will repeat even if you are just watching health bars you have to still be 'on call' at any moment to heal, some could argue this is mental effort you need to be 'present' in more than one capacity. Now in the real world you often get paid for being on call out duty, because its not the same as relaxing and doing your own thing. Its really not the same as being afk in my opinion, or doing nothing at all. Maybe the effort is more mental than physical, cant be measured though. When I play tank I think its more mental effort than physical

---

Sure, let's look at it from a mental capacity standpoint then.
Healer A tunnels on the healthbars and reactively casts spells
Healer B has eyes on youtube/netflix, glances once in a while to move, and casts spells once in a while

Both healers get the job done. Now how can you, as someone in the party, tell the difference between the two? I'm sorry, but "mental effort" is not much of an argument, considering this contradicts your other statement:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes and I dont want to develop high blood pressure caused by the stress of seeing someone dying cos Ive just gone in cleric and have to wait 5 secs to get out of it. :)

---

If simply watching the health bars fluctuate requires so much mental strain/effort that you are incapable of doing other things. This will very well help you develop high blood pressure.

That aside, I've mentioned that both the lazy and the other healer both can get the job done. But you (and Seoulstar) are keen on kicking the more lazy one. Or at least very judging on this kind of healer. May I call hypocrisy? If there are players out there who are willing to kick "lazy healers", why would you kick healers that are even more lazy? It's not like you know what's going on in their head, thus you can't judge whether they are uncomfortable with damage contribution or not. Yet the described netflix/afk healer seems more deserving to get kicked out while they can get the job done just as well.
So let's shift the effort levels a bit and you're the healer now that's not willing to contribute damage, but still get the job done. The other player is now in your mindset that the healer deserves a kick for not putting in enough effort. So where are we now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Don't you think it's a little childish to be kicking someone over something as minor as not using offensive spells as a healer? They are not causing a wipe, they are not trolling the party, they are just not using offensive spells. If they're kicking someone over something that minor, maybe it's them who should be taking a look at themselves.

---

It depends on the situation. Some people are able to tell the difference between people still learning and people refusing to contribute what they can because they don't want to. One is a fact that we all have to deal with; we all have to learn at some time or another. The other is a problem considering, once again, that this is a group based game. You don't have to contribute what you can if you don't want, but the group doesn't have to put up with it either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

A SCH afking and letting the fairy do the healing is not the same thing as a person physically being there and doing the healing themselves. While one is something I 100% understand to be kicked on because they are not even there, they are just following someone letting the AI do the healing for them.

---

And, because the fairy can solo heal the dungeon, the healing that the sch is doing while physically being there is completely meaningless. Unless, of course, they're having the tank pull multiple groups at once and their healing is needed in addition to the fairy's in order to keep the tank alive. But I don't believe in fairy tales.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Well I believe we found the root of the problem for the most part. People want everything to be fast, that will not always happen. And to the other person, you're contributing to your team if you're keeping them alive. Trying to connect a healer not dpsing to an ice mage, dragoons who only use their jumps, or ninja's who only throw daggers..basically DPS classes who are not doing as much damage as possible..that's illogical. They are DPS, they are supposed to be doing as much damage as they possibly can. Hence the term DPS or damage dealers.

---

Nah, SE gave us 90 minutes to clear dungeons. Clearly they don't intend for dps classes to use all their abilities. :^)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

So let's shift the effort levels a bit and you're the healer now that's not willing to contribute damage, but still get the job done. The other player is now in your mindset that the healer deserves a kick for not putting in enough effort. So where are we now?

---

Such a good view. Like really, how far should we lower the bar on acceptable play? I am so glad that the meta/playerbase pushes for optimal healer play styles over acceptance of the bare minimum, because of how low the bare minimum can be.

(Tank. DPS + SCH on auto follow) 90 minute dungeons. RIP when attendance alone becomes acceptable gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Such a good view. Like really, how far should we lower the bar on acceptable play? I am so glad that the meta/playerbase pushes for optimal healer play styles over acceptance of the bare minimum, because of how low the bare minimum can be.

(Tank. DPS + SCH on auto follow) 90 minute dungeons. RIP when attendance alone becomes acceptable gameplay.

---

That ofc is extreme, dont think Ive ever experienced it tbh , bar the odd person going afk. but thats just my experience. :) My own stance is lack of choice thats all I dont really mind how others play, if they dont dps ill dps for them. but yes Im sure they dont want to spend all day in there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

That ofc is extreme, dont think Ive ever experienced it tbh , bar the odd person going afk. but thats just my experience. :) My own stance is lack of choice thats all I dont really mind how others play, if they dont dps ill dps for them. but yes Im sure they dont want to spend all day in there.

---

Personally I wouldn't kick, let alone harrass a healer who's not dpsing in easier contents like normal raid/trial or dungeons, but I don't think anyone can argue that such healers are objectively inferior to healers who can provide more dps while still keeping the same tank/party alive though. The latter obviously contribute more to the group and help finish the dungeon faster.

Overhealing is absolutely useless, a waste of resource (time/mp) as well as a detriment for the group (unnecessary aggro for the tank to overcome, which may disrupt their optimal rotation as well), so even as healers the goal should be to heal as little as possible while keeping everyone alive. I don't know any content that require you to cast heals non stop to keep the party/tank alive without overhealing, unless something is terribly wrong (tank not using cds, dps standing in avoidable aoe, people are undergeared).

I also think that not dpsing in easier contents is sorta acceptable, but when we move onto harder contents like ex trials or savage raids, the bar for "acceptable performance" should be higher. Instead of just healing, we should also include mitigation, aggro management, dps and other utilities like ast's cards. A sch who can't prepare shields before tank busters or raid wide aoe dmg and control pet actions, a whm who doesn't know when/how to be careful with aggro, an ast who doesn't know when to use disable and collective unconscious aren't playing at what I consider an acceptable level of performance in ex trials or savage raids.

In regards of the auto following Scholar, this goes beyond the scope of the standard DPS healer vs non debates. Using this against those who are pro heals as a means to invalidate their reasoning for kicking a healer is skewed. The devs will chalk up just about anything as a "difference in play style", but the SCH auto following a tank is not a play style. This is a player who is taking advantage of the AI of the game, and has absolutely zero respect and courtesy for their group members. Let's stop pretending this is even remotely the same as a healer who is standing around and only being reactive.

I mentioned several pages back that the devs can't fix a difference of opinions within the community. They can however, fix technical issues with the game, or at least attempt to. The auto following scholar is without question something that is broken, and measures need to be taken to stop/prevent it. I don't know if the issue is with a low healing requirement in the game, if the fairy is too powerful, or what, but if a group can actually get a clear with an SCH on follow, it needs to change. It is a blatant technical issue with the game, and the devs should at least address it if they have no already.

I am not excusing a SCH who only heals, but it also should not be difficult to tell the difference between this SCH and one on AF. The former is still going to react to damage telegraphs, cast shields, leeches, and adlo pre pull. The latter does absolutely nothing. No buffs, no cleanses, and you can forget about large pulls. You simply just cannot compare these two SCHs, and it should be common sense which one can be kicked because of a "difference in play style" and the one that should be kicked because they're just a dick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

In regards of the auto following Scholar, this goes beyond the scope of the standard DPS healer vs non debates. Using this against those who are pro heals as a means to invalidate their reasoning for kicking a healer is skewed. The devs will chalk up just about anything as a "difference in play style", but the SCH auto following a tank is not a play style.

---

Isn't it though? Maybe someone isn't capable of tracking player HPS levels and that's the reason for their choice to play a healer class with a pet. Summoning their pet to look after healing should be enough correct? As long as people aren't dying and getting healed that isn't enough to kick a healer because they are doing their job.

If we are going to accept the bare minimum healers where exactly do we draw the line?

Is:
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10

:More acceptable than Pet/Follow/AFK?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Isn't it though? Maybe someone isn't capable of tracking player HPS levels and that's the reason for their choice to play a healer class with a pet. Summoning their pet to look after healing should be enough correct? As long as people aren't dying and getting healed that isn't enough to kick a healer because they are doing their job.

If we are going to accept the bare minimum healers where exactly do we draw the line?

Is:
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10

:More acceptable than Pet/Follow/AFK?

---

No, it's not a play style. That involves actually playing the game. The AF SCH can't react if they are AFK. You can argue that they can make macros to spam their abilities when available, but again, they are not even playing the game and these macros are even less effective because they might be going off at inopportune times similar to leaving pets on Sic. There is simply no comparing this SCH to one who is actively watching the group, but only healing. Nothing is acceptable about it, they are abusing the AI, and they don't belong in the queue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

No, it's not a play style. That involves actually playing the game. The AF SCH can't react if they are AFK. You can argue that they can make macros to spam their abilities when available, but again, they are not even playing the game and these macros are even less effective because they might be going off at inopportune times similar to leaving pets on Sic. There is simply no comparing this SCH to one who is actively watching the group, but only healing. Nothing is acceptable about it, they are abusing the AI, and they don't belong in the queue.

---

Why? Using macros, which is actually a feature that is part of the game, involves playing the game. Don't be selective here now.

You mentioned that the argument is skewed. The whole premise why damage shouldn't be part of a healers job is skewed itself anyway. But let's focus on the disrespectful bit you mentioned earlier. Let us take the most zealous no-damage-healer for example here and only heals and allow me label it according to what I've understood so far why this mindset exists:
Not comfortable doing so
They're healing primarily, not DPS

Both are sugarcoated reasoning on why they shouldn't contribute with damage. So let's look at it from another perspective:
Not willing to improve as a player
Gets away with the same reward with less effort

In particular the last bit, doesn't that seem rather disrespectful towards other players? Reaping the same rewards while others are having virtually zero downtime between their GCDs? While the healer has a couple of seconds in between each heal? It's a whole different story if the incoming damage went up. So let's look at it from a similar standpoint this time. If healers aren't supposed to contribute in damage as it is not labeled as a DPS role, every other role can very well just eat any AoE they stand in while doing damage. It's a DPS/Tank role, after all. Not a Dodge/avoider role. It also increases the incoming damage and thus required healing output. Seems like a win win to me: Raises effort from those who puts in the least (healers only) while lowering those who put in the most (other roles). Equality at it's finest!

But this whole topic at hand is being blown out of proportion. In case you haven't realised, Gemina, the comparison was about equal effort investment and the hypocrisy involving the "arguments". On this response I corrected the AFK scholar with a more active, yet just as "disrespectful" kind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

No, it's not a play style. That involves actually playing the game.

---

There is no functional difference between a SCH that runs around in circles while the fairy heals, or one that /follows while the fairy heals. Neither one is using their skills. Neither one, by any measure, would be classed as "playing the game", unless you are arbitrarily redefining what "playing the game" entails. How far in malms does a player have to move under their own power to be classed as "playing the game"? Does using auto-run count against them?

Quote:

---

There is simply no comparing this SCH to one who is actively watching the group, but only healing.

---

Neither SCH is healing, as the fairy is fulfilling the healing duty. What is the functional difference? They are both contributing the exact same effort to the completion of the duty (ie none). Does the /follow SCH suddenly start counting as "playing the game" if they too are "watching the group"?

Quote:

---

they are abusing the AI

---

It's...kind of what the AI was created to do? The fairy is designed to automatically heal. /Follow is designed to automatically follow another player. /Follow isn't perfect. It polls a direct A to B path between you and your target, and you will sometimes get stuck on things. You usually have to be paying at least some attention to stay with the group.

If they wanted, they could disable it in instances. They haven't. But that's neither here nor there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Why? Using macros, which is actually a feature that is part of the game, involves playing the game. Don't be selective here now.

---

Using macros still involves using a practical designed macro to use at an ideal time. A macro spamming cure every 10 seconds is not an ideal macro in ANY given situation. I will be selective because there is a clear difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You mentioned that the argument is skewed. The whole premise why damage shouldn't be part of a healers job is skewed itself anyway. But let's focus on the disrespectful bit you mentioned earlier.

---

Since I am not even talking about whether or not dmg should be part of their job, yes. Lets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Let us take the most zealous no-damage-healer for example here and only heals and allow me label it according to what I've understood so far why this mindset exists:
Not comfortable doing so
They're healing primarily, not DPS

Both are sugarcoated reasoning on why they shouldn't contribute with damage. So let's look at it from another perspective:
Not willing to improve as a player
Gets away with the same reward with less effort

---

First. Not willing to improve as a player encompasses both of these SCHs, and serves to give your argument some weight. The problem with that is I'm not even talking about a player who does not want to improve. And a player who doesn't want to improve can also be neither of these SCHs. Me, you, everyone; there is always room for improvement. Even a DPS healer who keeps everyone on their feet. This doesn't mean they want to improve. And

On the opposite end of that coin, even the most skilled SCH at any given moment can say, "Eff it, I'm going to auto follow the tank this round." And I am actually inclined to believe that SCHs who do this do possess some skill, and are aware of the game enough to know that they can get away with it.

Second. The heals only SCH is still, hopefully, buffing the tank, staying out of bad shit, keeping fairy on obey and using her CDs effectively, or trying to, and can allow for the tank to pull bigger groups as both heals from SCH and fairy will be needed to take them all down. To say that these two SCHs are putting in the same effort is erroneous. However, I do agree that both get the reward. So are you going to sit there and tell me a SCH who only heals despite the differences I have hopefully made crystal clear doesn't deserve the clear?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

In particular the last bit, doesn't that seem rather disrespectful towards other players?

---

I will never look at a SCH or any healer who doesn't DPS as being disrespectful. It's the reasons why they won't do it that leads me to that conclusion. Again, I WILL be selective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Reaping the same rewards while others are having virtually zero downtime between their GCDs? While the healer has a couple of seconds in between each heal? It's a whole different story if the incoming damage went up. So let's look at it from a similar standpoint this time. If healers aren't supposed to contribute in damage as it is not labeled as a DPS role, every other role can very well just eat any AoE they stand in while doing damage. It's a DPS/Tank role, after all. Not a Dodge/avoider role.

---

There is a flaw in that argument: There is no Dodge/avoider role. Those are mechanics, not roles and everyone is expected to follow them if they can't/shouldn't be ignored, and this applies to all three roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

It also increases the incoming damage and thus required healing output. Seems like a win win to me: Raises effort from those who puts in the least (healers only) while lowering those who put in the most (other roles). Equality at it's finest!

---

This is not a DPS healer vs heals only argument. I think you and I both know that these kind of arguments is akin to rearranging tables and chairs on the titanic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

But this whole topic at hand is being blown out of proportion. In case you haven't realised, Gemina, the comparison was about equal effort investment and the hypocrisy involving the "arguments". On this response I corrected the AFK scholar with a more active, yet just as "disrespectful" kind.

---

It still is. I am sitting here telling the community that the AF SCH puts in less effort than a heals only SCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IttyBitty

There is no functional difference between a SCH that runs around in circles while the fairy heals, or one that /follows while the fairy heals. Neither one is using their skills. Neither one, by any measure, would be classed as "playing the game", unless you are arbitrarily redefining what "playing the game" entails. How far in malms does a player have to move under their own power to be classed as "playing the game"? Does using auto-run count against them?

---

As stated in my last post, the heals only SCH is still staying out of bad, casting buffs, shields, cleansing, and using fairy CDs. SCHs have much more to do than just heal and kill, and it's becoming painstakingly more and more unacknowledged as these arguments drag on. CLEARLY, if a SCH or any healer is running/jumping around, emoting and the like, it is very disrespectful. It becomes very easy to label these players as such and kick them, or are their few that possess this kind of perception?

And you can use auto run/follow. I use it ALL the time. In the case of follow, I use it so I know when the tank stops, then I reassume control of my character to take down the trash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IttyBitty

Neither SCH is healing, as the fairy is fulfilling the healing duty. What is the functional difference? They are both contributing the exact same effort to the completion of the duty (ie none). Does the /follow SCH suddenly start counting as "playing the game" if they too are "watching the group"?

---

What I bolded there shows the unwillingness to see another perspective. The black and white treatment of healers. The absolutes. To answer your question, I've already stated that the /follow command is just fine so long as you engage the group when the fighting starts. They are still paying attention to what is going on, and reacting accordingly. The AFK SCH on /follow cannot do this, and is indisputably putting in less effort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IttyBitty

It's...kind of what the AI was created to do? The fairy is designed to automatically heal. /Follow is designed to automatically follow another player. /Follow isn't perfect. It polls a direct A to B path between you and your target, and you will sometimes get stuck on things. You usually have to be paying at least some attention to stay with the group.

---

Well, the thing is, gaming AI has been taken advantage of since the dawn of gaming so this really isn't news to anyone. But it is one thing to do it to get your win in a solo player game, and using it to your advantage in group play when others are expecting you to put in effort. That is why I pointed out that this is a broken aspect of SCH, and healing in this game in general. But that is another subject, that warrants a thread of its own, which is why I only briefly mentioned it to establish a point.

About the /follow not being perfect, that brings up another point because if a AF SCH gets caught on something, it will be cancelled unless the tank miraculously notices and maneuvers to avoid it. If not, you lose your healer as SCH is AFK which means the fairy is too. The heals only healer though? Still there and you may proceed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IttyBitty

If they wanted, they could disable it in instances. They haven't. But that's neither here nor there.

---

I'll go there. The fairy is supposed to assist the SCH, not outright take over all the healing. It's why I mentioned lowering their threshold. And I mean REALLY lower it. Fairy should be like, "Ummmm... tank is @40%, why aren't you healing him?" and then blast him with embrace. You could probably even increase their healing potency this way, or they wouldn't have had to nerf it already. 80% threshold though, and 300 potency combined with tank who barely takes damage? C'mon, really?

Thing is, many love that SCH can spend so much time in DPS stance, easily the same number of people who wish it had to heal more. The devs can't make both groups happy, so the only choice they have is either keep the status quo, or make both groups unhappy. The AFK SCH though, something, and I do mean something needs to be done about that. That is an in-game issue that players are abusing. It is just as bad as RMT. That is the level I put it at. These players should be banned.

You can argue all you want, but if you're not dealing damage, you're outright ignoring a good portion of a healer's kit, on top of being a straight detriment to the rest, *especially*, but not only, considering how little actual healing is needed. You wanna make it your playstyle? You're also making it a good reason to be kicked out. Cry me a river, it is what it is.

On a personal note, thank God healers are versatile enough to deal damage, it makes them so much fun to play with.

I think what this argument comes down to is if it should be considered acceptable to only effectively participate in the content for the minimum amount possible to complete the instance - and if so, should it be accepted for everyone or only healers. A healer who only heals is covering the minimum requirement of keeping everyone alive, but considering the healing requirements of the game, this makes them effectively active for maybe up to 20% of the content (probably less), and for the rest of the time they're being effectively useless to their group (overhealing, unnecessary buffing or "watching health bars" is not effective participation).

Now the question is, is this acceptable level of effective contribution? If it is, is it acceptable only for healers or should the same level of effective activity be allowed for all other jobs as well (if not, why)?

My view still is that all group members should be expected to participate in advancing the group's goal as effectively as they can and healers shouldn't get a free pass on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

I just don't understand why it has to be one or the other. The developers of the game have done many innovative things in the past; why can't we add accomodating the playstyles of all players to this list?

---

I suspect it stems from them not wanting any one healer to be left out and are too afraid to up the healing requirement. Unfortunately, the latter is what has resulted in such a massive skill gap between all jobs. Newer players stepping into harder content are wholly unprepared since everything prior is generally laughable. Stormblood will hopefully start to remedy this, especially the devs can finally figure out how to balance all three healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taika

I think what this argument comes down to is if it should be considered acceptable to only effectively participate in the content for the minimum amount possible to complete the instance - and if so, should it be accepted for everyone or only healers. A healer who only heals is covering the minimum requirement of keeping everyone alive, but considering the healing requirements of the game, this makes them effectively active for maybe up to 20% of the content (probably less), and for the rest of the time they're being effectively useless to their group (overhealing, unnecessary buffing or "watching health bars" is not effective participation).

Now the question is, is this acceptable level of effective contribution? If it is, is it acceptable only for healers or should the same level of effective activity be allowed for all other jobs as well (if not, why)?

---

This is a so good point i want to give some examples for the other roles to bring in the minimum effort to completing their role requirement. Equal rights for everyone!!! As a reminder i will give you the minimum requirements to fullfil the role.

Tank: Holding hate so only he gets damage for easier healing.
Just holding hate, only use a skill to generate hate if anyone other is about to take hate. No CDs or other skills needed, maybe tank stance on, but that wouldn't be the minimum.

Damage Dealer (DPS is not a role description, it is a unit of measurement): Dealing damage and killing stuff.
Using AA only or maybe 1-2-3-combo or anything what makes some damage, cause things are dieing. This would make Ice Mages, Pet-only-SMNs, Ninjutsu-only-NINs and many more abstract forms acceptable.

This is super sarcastic, but i think this equals a healing only healer, especialy the tanks, cause they have to watch all the hatebars to see, when to use another hate skill. For DDs it is more complicate to find the right point for minimum effort by fullfilling the role requirement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

You can argue all you want, but if you're not dealing damage, you're outright ignoring a good portion of a healer's kit, on top of being a straight detriment to the rest, *especially*, but not only, considering how little actual healing is needed. You wanna make it your playstyle? You're also making it a good reason to be kicked out. Cry me a river, it is what it is.

---

This is where the healer DPS pushing loses weight. You believe that heals only healers are a detriment to the party. It's ludicrous. I am sorry that healers are designed in a way that gives them downtime. I am sorry that despite a completely and totally different dynamic to tanking and DPSing, this role allows that downtime in order to be reactive to the most effin vital role of the freakin game... keeping everyone alive. Do DPS have to worry about this? No. Do tanks have to worry about this? No. Neither of them do, but this meta continuously pushes that not only do healers have to worry about this, they also have to utilize every single freakin GCD towards damage to prove their worth. To the point that they are compared with AFK scholars. Are you effin kidding me?

Does not anyone see the elusive middle ground here? And this is coming from someone diagnosed with a 'supposed' inability to see grey areas. Cry me a river? Dude, who's crying? I see far more complaints about healers not DPSing than from healers who choose to only heal. I'd think there is a deductive, logical reason for that. The latter only comes forth with failed attempts at understanding why they get bitched at for doing the main principle of their role.

Ok... so it's not for that, it's because they are not utilizing their downtime? Fine. But call it for what it is, and stop sounding like an elitist. Have you ever had to merge into traffic knowing that proceeding will slightly slow down incoming traffic, but not doing so will frustrate those behind you who would have said effit and go? Healing in this game is constantly like that, especially when running with strangers.

Many healers in this game want to make the best decision for each possible moment during an instance. The problem with this, is the microscopic insight into healer derps. Often times, the ideal choice in GCD is also the most risky. So many times in this game have I equated a healer GCD with a crucial decision to make when free crafting. The right one, and you win. The wrong one and you lose with your HQ attempt, along with your mats. But you can always play it safe, and 'get by' with NQ. But with crafting, I can sit there for a really long time trying to equate risk vs reward. A healer, even with a 10 second downtime does not have this luxury. There are three to seven other players there, making decisions BASED off of the decisions YOU make. You best make the right one, or you suck at heals. Yeah... no pressure.

Why succumb to it when you can get by playing it safe? I am not saying it is ok to do so. Anyone who knows me and has read my posts here will know that I HIGHLY encourage healers to utilize their entire toolkits, and contribute to damage, as it benefits everyone. The problem is because you can get by this way, it is taken advantage of by those who know, and simply do not care.

So how do we fix it? Not by tearing each other's throats out, that's for damn sure. We need to recognize it as a community, and take the appropriate action. Are you not sure how to differentiate an AFK SCH from a heals only one who really does want to help? Ask. It doesn't have to be during the instance. Utilize the damn forums in a positive way and ask those who feel they know, how they know? Boxing players in a pincushion only to insert the needles yourself isn't helping.

I am fine for tar and feathering the truly lazy healers of this game. Those that simply don't give a shit, and use the lack of healing needed in this game to their advantage. But ever consider that overheals happen because a healer simply want to effin heal, or in my case with a video I posted, I was left with no choice to do so because I could not predict incoming damage from the PUG? Wanna know how many times I've looked at my cure II and cure III crossbar selections and wondered why they are even there?

I think a huge difference is there are those who post their arguments with the most ideal situation in mind, and there are those (like me) who post with the least ideal. But from my perspective, I would rather play with the least ideal expectation as to avoid constant disappointment. But this, my friend, is my play style. I can understand yours, and I do hope you understand mine.

You are wrong; I don't believe heal-only healers are a detriment, I know it for a fact.

My second main is WHM, and let me tell you, I can react as good as you, if not better, while I keep dealing damage. So it may be a 'you' problem rather than a damaging-healers one. Why do I say I may react better? Because dealing damage helps me be on my toes rather than staring at HP bars, amongst other things.

And yeah, cry me a river, or should I point out who started this thread to begin with?
You guys are the ones who are complaining about something and expect the rest of us to just follow you.

If I played BRD the way the "heals only" crowd would prefer healers to be played, I'd just be slapping windbite on a single mob without wanderer's minuet up and sitting idle until it needs to be refreshed. I'm not AFK, I'm performing my role, who cares if the run takes longer?

Especially considering a WHM literally can get away with just using regen for the tank on a lot of content.

Okay, I just read another portion of that text wall. Used the word elitist. Can close the thread already, there's no turning back from that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

---

Short answer: NO!

Long answer: No, healers should play like they can and have to adapt to the situation with a focus on a smooth run.

I give this answer to everyone who asks if he can play like he wants, just exchanging "healers" with an other fitting descriptive word for the asking person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taika

I think what this argument comes down to is if it should be considered acceptable to only effectively participate in the content for the minimum amount possible to complete the instance - and if so, should it be accepted for everyone or only healers. A

---

This thread was started with the intention of having a choice other than dps, otherwise there isnt one, and most other games like this do have that choice. It isnt about people wanting to do the bare minimum either, as I for one do everything I can given the situation. Its about being given a choice too. In terms of overhealing, I do that myself but it isnt a concious decision to over heal, in new content my priority is to keep people alive and go on healing at the end of fights just to make sure they stay alive, it may be excitement or whatever but find that hard to just relax and ease off I also over heal in cases of heavy incoming damage and sometimes get the timing wrong. Must add there too Im a cautious player I wont risk a wipe or anyone dying. Am I nervous going in cleric on savage? yes takes me time