Let's keep Character Crossovers from other Square-Enix titles out of FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

the tiny difference is that i didnt accuse op or anyone in paticular with that statement, it was referring to the people that are only angry because its not a character they liked that are very vocal at the moment, i could have worded it better in hindsight.

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Or you could have simply not made such an implication to begin with. Because it wasn't really called for and out of place, whether you were referring to one person or many.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

lets end this silly internet fight and agree that we both could have handled that better, its not really clear which one of us is the "pot" and which the "kettle"

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Now that much I agree with, because it's gotten somewhat boring anyway, lol. I have a video to make for youtube anyway.

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Originally Posted by Zerosion

I'd just like to step in and say I like cake. Cake and pie.

Is this relevant? No.

Does that make it less tasty? Not at all!

Carry on with your spirited debate now.

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http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2179/...d576a2f57d.jpg

Cake-pie. A hybrid of cake and pie.

Check-mate.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

Sorry, Sleverin. My linkshell and I are on masamune. >.<

Then again, I'm sure I could create a character on a different realm if I so choose! :)

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If you wanted to, please do! I'm sure my FC/LS would be more than happy to bring you on board for when you wanted to visit. They're a great group of folks.

Since the topic has been a bit derailed, I thought I'd bring it a bit back home.

I, personally, do not like this crossover idea and have a lot of issues with it. To be honest, if SE came right out and said that this was purely a promotional device and that it was to service fans of the game with some vanity gear and an event, I'd be fine with it. However, they have stated (so far) that this is not a different version of Lightning and Snow, nor will it go unnoticed by those in Eorzea. I am hoping that the scope of the situation stays at something like an optional quest or behest, merely something to do but have the rest of the game left alone.

My main reason for pointing this out is that there has been no reason up to this point to reference any sort of weird multi-verse crossover potential and that there never would be, it would be superfluous at best, and a downright terrible story mechanic at worst. People will cry about the "Void" as if it's some call to a higher power, able to strike down any argument with some infallible purpose. We know little, if anything about this so-called dimension (if it can even be called that) and for what purpose it serves. Is it merely a Maguffin, a thing created solely for the purpose of the Dalamud storyline? Doubtful, as ARR has brought up the voidsent within the first few story missions. Either way, this Void is not some magic realm where all Final Fantasys exist simultaneously as if this were some Jungian pool of archetypes, able to pull any character out of a magic hat simply because the "Void" exists as a word. (The Void is essentially nothingness as a word by the way, it does not give one the means to travel dimensions by its mere existence.)

What is all this exposition for? I shall tell you, good forum goer, if you are willing to listen. The problem is, with any well established story, is that we have this idea cemented in our minds about what this game does and what happens as an internally consistent basis from what we've learned. Surely, some of you will say, "Well, we don't know everything, the rules could change at any moment." We could claim the same of reality, but that doesn't make it true. We know we need to breathe, eat, and drink. When we sleep, we will most likely wake in the morning. The rules simply do not change at the whim of some deity (i. e. writers) simply because they can come up with reasons as to why it wasn't mentioned beforehand. Anyone can do that by the way and it is called "retconning" and it usually shows of sloppy writing and demeaning to the audience. Simply because the lore team states that all of a sudden, Minfilia was a badger this whole time and we couldn't tell because over exposure to the Aether had made us see the whole world differently simply because they thought badgers were cool does not make the story any more plausible or any less of a blatant showing of terrible writing. Now, of course, we're not expecting this to be some Shakesperian tale which is fine. However, crossovers begin to destroy the cornerstone of what makes the story great.

In summation, crossovers have a major problem and that is: it simultaneously ruins both properties if the idea of the characters interacting with each other isn't already implemented in the story. Kingdom Hearts skips this whole thing right from the get go, hell it's on the package. It was not so with 14, and simply throwing a retcon into the situation should not make it acceptable to us as players, it should bother us a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

Either way, this Void is not some magic realm where all Final Fantasys exist simultaneously as if this were some Jungian pool of archetypes, able to pull any character out of a magic hat simply because the "Void" exists as a word. (The Void is essentially nothingness as a word by the way, it does not give one the means to travel dimensions by its mere existence.)

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I don't know if you're directing this at me (since I never said everything would come through the Void), but seeing as I brought up the 'Void' I'm going to assume you are referring to me. In which case, you completely missed my point. Namely, Realm-crossing happens in-universe, therefore, it's not an impossibility.

The mechanism may not be the void, it may be the Mother Crystal (that giant crystal you see in the main storyline multiple times) which has the ability to summon multiple adventurers awarenesses into its presence at any given time. Seemingly, with very little effort, but always for a reason. Seems fairly reasonable that with some additional effort (Or, more likely, aether), the crystal could very well summon a physical body from a galaxy far, far away, or perhaps from another 'realm' since obviously, Atomos has this power (to summon things from another realm) and has already appeared in 1.xx, though he is not involved in every instance where something is spawned from the void (See certain Dungeons). Also, in every one of my examples, including Lightning, they already have this power (Or something very, very, very, very similar to it, time-hopping and dimension-hopping are one and the same to me), it wasn't provided to them specifically for this event through some retconning.

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The void is a generic term that inhabitants of Eorzea have given to a dark realm they believe exists beyond their own. When a creature is deemed to be too unnatural to be "of Eorzea" (such as ahrimans), they are often categorized as "voidsent", based on the common belief that they were sent by some sinister force from beyond the corporeal realm.
The void is also said to be the origin of the creatures present on the Dzemael Darkhold and the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak. Upon advancing on the instances, some of the creatures will "retreat into the void", while others will emerge from it, effectively changing the monsters currently on the area.

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Source - FFXIV section

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

In summation, crossovers have a major problem and that is: it simultaneously ruins both properties if the idea of the characters interacting with each other isn't already implemented in the story.

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Serious question. Do gag characters that get involved with the main storyline characters bother you? Like Hildibrand. After all, he's just some random guy, who inexplicably has the title of 'Inspector Extraordinaire', survived an explosion that had enough power to rocket him to Dalamud only because he had Gag-Character Invulnerability, and has Urianger appear multiple times in his questline. He's not a crossover character, but there's way less reasonable explanations for him than there will be for Lightning. Which isn't what I'd consider retconning, since all the mechanisms for bringing in Lightning are there already in both XIII (From what I understand, XIII-2 is basically Lightning in Time, and XIII-3 is basically Lightning: Majora's Mask) and XIV, namely Dimension/Time-hopping.

Edit: Hildibrand, at his finest. (Shameless Plug!)

I don't understand what is so great about Lightning anyway personally I feel her series isn't that great

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Originally Posted by Volker_Mateus

I don't understand what is so great about Lightning anyway personally I feel her series isn't that great

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There were plenty of others who felt the same way. I, on the other hand, enjoyed every second of Final Fantasy XIII and XIII-2. I would gladly play Lightning Returns, but first i will need to find me a new Playstation 3. (>_<; )

One of the things i love about Final Fantasy games, is their story telling. The way they present their game and it's story is enough for me to play each installment of the series. Another thing i loved in the series was the level progression. Spending time leveling my characters to their max level and increasing their stats by unlocking traits/spells/abilities in the progress.

For example:

• The Materia System in Final Fantasy VII
• Drawing magic from monsters in Final Fantasy VIII
• Learning abilities through gear in Final Fantasy IX
• The Sphere Grid in Final Fantasy X
• The Licence Board in Final Fantasy XII
• The Crystarium in Final Fantasy XIII(-2)

Each system felt fresh in it own way and provided me with hours upon hours of playtime, Final Fantasy XIII(-2) included.

The main reason why i liked Lightning so much, was probably that she had the same type of charm about her like Cloud and Squall. Tough , closed off and rugged personality in the beginning due to her military background, but slowly opens up (while the story progresses through the game)... Turning her into a pillar that supports and protects the people she cares about.

That's why i love her as a character.

The issue here is not, of course, whether or not we like Lightning but more of the point of how crossovers cause more problems than they solve and that in the end they demean properties that they come from and go to. This is speaking more directly to the Final Fantasy series in the fact that the reason we loved these characters in the first place is that their stories are singular representations of the work. They had a story that was told, we loved it and their role in it and a new story has come along in which we can again love new characters without forgetting the old.

To use Shakespeare as a point, we do not see him throw Hamlet into every play he can, despite the fact that it's noted that he is obviously Shakespeare's favorite character by looking at the lines he has and the amount of dialogue he uses. Why not? It wouldn't make sense for the Prince of Denmark to just suddenly appear in Macbeth say as the times are completely different and though everyone loves Hamlet he would seem so out of place in Scotland it would make the story irreverent.

@Aish I haven't read any of your posts or even knew that you had posted in this thread, I was merely bringing up this plot point that everyone seems quite bent on bringing up, that which is known as the "Void". To call it a different plane of existence (i.e. a Realm) is questionable, as we only know of creatures that come from a place so abhorrent we view their very existence as alien to our own. To use this possible device to explain why Lightning would be here would be rather questionable at best as it would make her a creature of the Void itself would it not? By being so she would in fact be an enemy to us, as the only things known to come from the Void are beasts and hideous demons.

This point of this "Mother Crystal" that is also brought up is another point I find highly suspect. Many bring this up, using the exact same words as you do yet I fail to see how any of this is relevant, or in fact even true. We honestly don't know what happened at Carteneau Flats, no one does. For all we know we were stationed in the flow of Aether that we travel across and were left between waking reality and this Crystal which could be a binder of our reality, not unlike the ones in XI. It's superfluous, however, as neither of these ideas are crossing dimensions, nor are they any sort of time travel. We were not thrown five years into the future, as if Doc Brown aka Louisoix came along and threw us in the DeLorean and told us to work it out when we got there. Stasis is our best explanation at this point for what happened to us through the intervention of Louisoix, or quite possible the Twelve. The only way we can perceive times other than our own is through the Echo, but this is merely for viewing and not any sort of travel.

As for gag characters, I must reiterate my point about "it's on the package". Hildibrand is a known joke character, he's there for levity and laughs. Writers often employ a character such as this to ease tension, relax the audience, and help set up other ideas for higher drama. Without using this device, the audience can become exhausted at your narrative, weakened by your ideas of high drama and without some levity the rhythm of your work will falter and the work itself will fail. I actually didn't do the Hildibrand quests, so I had no idea about this yet it does not mean much that Urianger was involved. Urianger's point (at least in that scene) was to be a fulcrum for the joke as his spouting of that A/A rhyming scheme across Eorzea inspired Hildibrand to think of himself as a hero which isn't far fetched seeing as Hildibrand thinks quite highly of himself. However, this scene doesn't have any sort of bothersome effects upon the story as Urianger is just there, he doesn't suddenly drop dead or sprout 6 Hydra heads. If Hildibrand were to slap Raubahn around while in the Coliseum, Suplex him like Sabin and then toss him out of the arena, then yes, this would be a major problem. His interactions with Urianger, however, are in fact pointedly justifiable for the reasons stated before. I don't see how this makes less sense than if Lightning were to suddenly appear through some dimension hopping idea.

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

To use this possible device to explain why Lightning would be here would be rather questionable at best as it would make her a creature of the Void itself would it not? By being so she would in fact be an enemy to us, as the only things known to come from the Void are beasts and hideous demons.

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Again, you missed the point I was making. Namely 'Realm-hopping' is not some random power attributed to Lightning only for this. I was pointing out that Crossing realms already exists in-game, my prime example being the Void, this does not automatically mean that the Void will be used, it only establishes that it's possible to cross dimensions. And again, during the beta storyline, the crystal summons our incorporeal forms in to it's presence. Multiple times. And even other adventurers. With a greater push, it could conceivably summon physical bodies, since, well, we adventurers travel the aether highways all the time. There's none of this retconning going on. Neither in FFXIV, nor was there any involved in Lightning's ability (Time travel, edit: which, if I'm not mistaken, she has in the second game.) to come here.

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

However, this scene doesn't have any sort of bothersome effects upon the story as Urianger is just there, he doesn't suddenly drop dead or sprout 6 Hydra heads.

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Again, Lightning will have no impact on the main story either. The only substantial difference between the two characters? Lightning has a fully fleshed out story. Period. Lightning is going to, legitimately, be here using a mechanism already in-place in both games.

I suppose you could make the case that Hildibrand has his own adventure, focused on him as well, but then the only true difference between the two is that Lightning was in a different game.

Might I point out that all of the Final Fantasy games take place in the same universe, but on different worlds? Well, most of them anyway.

Adds Depth and Unity to the series.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Might I point out that all of the Final Fantasy games take place in the same universe, but on different worlds? Well, most of them anyway.

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I don't mean to be obtuse, but what does this even mean? Like different planets in the same solar system? Different solar systems? Where can one obtain this information? ;)

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Originally Posted by Byonka

Adds Depth and Unity to the series.

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Not if it destroys the depth and unity of the story.