I sort of wish players could only choose one job.

I'm willing to give back VI as an instance of locked classes. Technically if you build Locke up with a speed-boosting esper, you're essentially stuck with that decision. No swapping back and forth between high speed or high strength.

Even without VI, the majority is still in favor of switching jobs around on a whim. I think some of the Tactics games and maybe FFIII had a stat growth feature that would apply on level-up (so MNK characters tended to have higher HP even if they switched to WHM later on). But that's still only a small limitation to job/ability swapping.

I find it interesting how the creator of this thread now seems to have some special insight to exactly how the questing and stories will go for ARR. in 1.0 there was only the one main story that stayed around and that was intentionally there to usher in ARR. I noticed the OP cited previous FF's as examples of "flawed" characters that they seem to desire.

Hell. I guess bahamut raising shit all across the land wasnt enough of a fail for you? what more do you want? Character perma death? If you want to play the game in a way that would emulate your preferred method, no one is stopping you. People do it all the time in RP servers. Join one of those and be happy.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Uninstall the game upon death if you feel the need to inject realism so badly.

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It's not a matter of realism or fantasy. It's a matter of enjoyable depth and story. There's virtually no substance to each of the jobs, nor to the way a character enters or pursues their paths. The post above I said I agreed with said nothing of forcing the job limitation as a rule; merely that the present system seemed shallow, stale, and allowed little character immersion. I have trouble seeing how wanting to see such conditions improved would be a fatal dose of realism.

Perhaps I should have assumed that agreeing with a post would be taken as agreeing with every quote by its author. My mistake.

If this makes my position any easier to snipe:
- I enjoy the ability to have as many jobs as I want, but through a vivid feeling of my own innovation and experiences (which first requires game mechanics that allow such) paired with mentorship and world archetypes, rather than a mere 'collect them all' set of situational tools that take little time to master.
- I find issue with the acquisition and lack of adaptation of abilities and their motifs, not with the armory nor multi-job systems.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

You're referring to inconsequential gameplay, and not the mechanics of the game in which the play is tailored.

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Wait, are you saying that if we never leveled, we can get past all these quests and missions? If the said game play is inconsequential, why do we need to be at a certain level? Why do we need gear to do better damage to pass a quest?
Also, gameplay is part of the mechanics of the game. It is by it's very definition.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

Our character is perfect because according to the plot they never failed. Canonically they could not experience the same cut-scene over and over again, the NPC's never acknowledge a loss because the game simply operates by letting you rechallenge the quest as if you it were your first time again.

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I believe I've addressed this already:

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Originally Posted by Laume

1) TLDR version: The truth is, we, even in game have had our failures and hardships. Even if it's not seen by other people/npc. Unless you follow them through the failures as well as successes, you'll never know just how "impressive" they are. And that's why other people/npc's can see us as having nearly no hardship.
Long version:
Example (in real life):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSbhYmFEMTA
I follow this guy from time to time. His job is a computer 3d modeler/animator. All this seems awesome and easy. But if you look at the out takes, just one of these tricks can take 5~20 tries before he gets that 1 good take for this video. But to us, via this video, it all seems like he did it in one day. I would hardly call him, from that video, shallow and contrived. I stopped counting how many times I failed "to kill a raven" after the 5th time. But, obviously, to the npc's (and to anyone else that sees me wearing a dalamund horn) it doesn't feel like it. Part of this game, part of any mmorpg, part of the story is what the npc's tell you and the cutscenes. The other part is your adventure with the people you're with. FFXIV was initial designed so you can make your own adventure stories. So we can't simply say "because other's can't see our failures, they don't exist."

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Originally Posted by Laume

3) Above all. a person in right place at the right time and doesn't fail. That really almost describes every story (book, movie, song, etc) in the world. I highly doubt that you feel almost every story is shallow and contrived. And while I can see why this seems too convenient to be believable, the truth is, for most of these stories, if the right person didn't appear at the right place at the right time, there would have been no story to tell, no game to play.

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In short, if you lose a fight, if this was a console game, you would have seen the "game over" screen and had to load frm the last save point. But since this is a mmorpg, there are no manual save points, you start at the auto save point of before the fight. And hence that's why you're allowed to view the same cut scene over and over again, which can "canonically" never happen.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

To be honest, it's never as blatant as it is when it comes to learning and mastering new jobs. In most cases, there's a conflict that we as a group must surmount even if the odds aren't in our favor. Sometime we fail, and we lose something to the enemy. Or we're taken captive by the Beast tribe. There's an ebb and flow that allows me to enjoy the game despite its tendency to be unrealistic. But after all it's Final Fantasy, right?

But the plot devices for the job quests were so contrived, forced, and usually a product of our character's inexplicable talent to never fail, and always be in the right place at the right time, that I couldn't enjoy it like I wanted to. Could it happen once or twice? Perhaps. But for every single job? Pfft. In that case, once the Golden Saucer arrives we all better get filthy rich.

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After a while, just about every plot device is contrived. You think it's easy to jam out stories that's mind blowing for every job, every quest? Do you know how hard that is? That's like expecting your favorite to make every song they put out your absolute favorite. This is a game, made by human, on a deadline, with a budget. There are stronger stories and there are weaker stories. If you have a way to create top-knotch, intriguing stories 100% of the time, by all means. All of humanity since the invention of the story has been looking for a way to do that. Some quotes:

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Cartman: Dude, The Simpsons have done everything already. Who cares?
Stan: Yeah, and they've been on the air for like, thirteen years. Of course they've done everything.
Mr. Garrison: Every idea's been done, Butters, even before The Simpsons.
Chef: Yeah. In fact, that episode was a rip-off of a Twilight Zone episode.

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Well, all the jokes can't be good. You've got to expect that once in a while.
Groucho in Animal Crackers (movie)

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Gather up all the text for every quest for this game next time you get the chance. Cut scene and all. And see just how much story they have to write. They can't all be winners.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

Though sadly for me that's not even the largest cause to why I feel it takes away from the immersion of the game. It's the improbable possibilities that allow our character to master and excel at every job, even if its described as one that requires years of tutelage and training. Just because something is a possibility, doesn't make it realistic. The "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" concept becomes so apparent that I become really turned off from the story. I'm super duper not interested in watching characters who can do anything and everything because they're just that perfect.

I'd rather see a character take on realistic goals, like dedicating themselves to a job like the others and excelling at it instead of being a master at everything.

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I've already covered this:

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Originally Posted by Laume

1) <snip>
TLDR: NPC's are impressed by anything.

2) <snip>
TLDR: Our characters live in a compressed time AND don't need to stop for anything.

3) <snip>
TLDR: The "mastery" and "feats" we do in game aren't as insurmountable as the npc's seem to think.

4)<snip>
TLDR: Some players spent a lot of time or got a lot of help or both.

So none of the above points by themselves explain why all this seems "unrealistic". But when put together (some bars lowered and other rates of things increased), you can see how these things, although unrealistic to normal people, is still in the realm of possibility, even in the real world, if certain criteria are met. None of which, are the job system.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

Like I mentioned earlier, the events that allow our characters to gain these jobs, alone (While still, improbable.) isn't the issue. It's that our characters are at the right place and right time for every single one of them.

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But you keep saying it is:

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

I'd rather see a character take on realistic goals, like dedicating themselves to a job like the others and excelling at it instead of being a master at everything.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

It's the improbable possibilities that allow our character to master and excel at every job, even if its described as one that requires years of tutelage and training. Just because something is a possibility, doesn't make it realistic. The "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" concept becomes so apparent that I become really turned off from the story.

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Even in this single post.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

Firstly, on a occasion characters in stories do fail before they are developed into a wiser and more experienced character capable of taking on a challenge and coming out triumphant while not coming off contrived or forced. Otherwise the characters comes off flat and we find ourselves back to the A Mary Sue or Gary Stu concept.

Which is essentially an overly-idealised character, sometimes the "dream version" of a writer who is so preoccupied with making their character utter perfection they lose sight of everything that makes a fictional character believable - and therefore, enjoyable to read about. Traits include an exotic, uncommon name; unusual hair or eye color and an overall beautiful appearance; powers or exclusive abilities that can overcome any opponent, superbly talented in a wide range of skills (from maths to composing music); and a complete lack of any realistic flaws the reader can relate to. Very rarely is a Sue/Stu aged - they are always young, in their prime, even if they centuries old. They're just... boring. Too perfect. Any challenges in the story are just brushed aside by their amazing skills. And by lord are they tedious. Oftentimes they have a dramatic, unusual, or tragic background, such as being the sole survivor of genocide. A good, common tactic is to give then some intense amnesia so they are completely ignorant of their exceptional history.

As for personality... What personality? Everyone they comes across is charmed by their wit, courage, sympathetic qualities or sad aura. Nobody could possibly hate this little stunner. Even characters who prefer to skulk in the shadows are touched and attracted to their warm, "likeable" nature. If they're not adventuring, rebellious heros, they're an angst-ridden, miserable teenager who's still getting over that one lost love.

Nobody likes Sue/Stu characters.

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You don't realize why the story is written like that? It's because they're trying to write to a general template that we fill in ourselves. If you see these stories with characters as Sue/Stu as you put it, that's, as much as I hate to say this, a reflection of *you*. A self projection of *you*. They can't write to complex backgrounds because we fill in the gaps on the own backgrounds. They can't write to flaws because they don't know what *our* flaws are. One of the great things about customization is that they give *us* the ability to choose the character we want. But the flaws of that is that they *can't* write and check for every possibility. Again, due to time, money, budget, etc, constraints. Really, I really hate to have to say this but, after this much dismissal and ignoring of points I've made and replying with points that have nothing to do with the quotes that you've posted, I'm beginning to think that it's not the game that's dull. It's you. Your projection of yourself is dull and you're blaming the system for it.

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Originally Posted by KyahAlmasy

Final Fantasy XIV is my game, the only time this sense of impervious perfection makes itself obvious is the idea behind the multiple job function. It is not difficult to level, there is no wow-factor behind it. Our characters are just so lucky, and so powerful that they can do anything and everything with relative ease. It's just a poorly cloaked game mechanic, and for me an eye sore.

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I'm starting to believe that you don't believe a word of that at all. Well, not the first half. I've already covered most of this before so I'm not going to repeat myself again. But again, all I wanted to point out was that your point of someone being able to master a lot of things being unrealistic is not a logically sound. None of the points, if I might add, you've provided counter proof to and simply dismissed or just restated your initial point.

Though, as I read though this, I can give a better recommendation for mmo games.
http://secondlife.com/
https://minecraft.net/
No contrived plot devices. No perfect storm of circumstances. No easily gainable skills and levels. Poverty and destitution is always an option.
What you're really looking for isn't a game, you're really, literally, looking for a second life (no pun or reference intended.). Final Fantasy (as evident in the title) is a game of escape. Away from this world and into one where we can play Johnny on the spot or that lucky/legendary hero. That is the premise of this game. And, it seems, that's what makes this game unrealistic, I think most of us are fine with that. That's what we are here for.

I'm not saying you have to like this game or you have to think it's the best. But these points, all of them, tells me you're looking for something in this game that isn't there and wasn't meant to be. Not everything can be appealing to everyone at all times. Not everything can perfect all the time. The cost of us playing generic heroes in a fictional world where, yes, things are meant to cater to our whims for battles and adventures, is that we have to meet them half way. (Because, literally, no one has figured out a way to make the template hero of an adventure, whom, not even the gender has been set or guaranteed, personable on a multiplayer platform yet. If I'm wrong, I'd to know what mmo did it and how and buy them beer.)

Lastly, all I was trying to say is that someone mastering a lot of things is not unrealistic. If, after all this proof and no counter proof, you're still not satisfied with this simple point. I can only say (to my dismay)
https://starlightangel.dyndns.org/gif/no_pleasing.jpg

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Originally Posted by Skies

Seems like you are forgetting about times when we had to run away with our tails between our legs (more literally in my case) from Nael as he was about to annihilate us (such a perfect detail, that same move he uses when we escape through that aetheryte node is a move he uses during the fight :D), about the time we only escaped the Amalj'aa by grace of Ifrit, we had even been captured before.
Or how all we could do against Gaius was watch as the investigators of the Circle of Knowing fought him only to have all of us completely blasted away by the Agrias's main cannon.

We are not as perfect as you make we seem to be (we as in the adventurers). And hey, being in the right place at the right time is what makes a person a hero.

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Or when we ran like hell from a rampaging treant/gobbue/sea serpent and was all but helpless before em. Or the fact that even if the instanced dungeons allowed you to enter on your own it would take being WAY above its intended level to even consider soloing, with many fights being designed to be nigh impossible to do that way. (Batraal comes to mind)

Oh, and the empire dropping Dragon Moons on us. Yeah we sure showed them.

This is a terrible idea. Your more then welcome to play one role and leave the rest of us to play multiple roles as we choose. The multiple jobs one character feature of this game is what every other game is lacking.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Or when we ran like hell from a rampaging treant/gobbue/sea serpent and was all but helpless before em. Or the fact that even if the instanced dungeons allowed you to enter on your own it would take being WAY above its intended level to even consider soloing, with many fights being designed to be nigh impossible to do that way. (Batraal comes to mind)

Oh, and the empire dropping Dragon Moons on us. Yeah we sure showed them.

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Lol good points. To add to that, anyone remember how successful we were when Bahamut broke free?

Well technically we didn't get a chance to fight... we got ported to the future.

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Originally Posted by Molic

Well technically we didn't get a chance to fight... we got ported to the future.

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Well, I don't think it was that we didn't get a chance to fight. I think it was we couldn't. None of them knew how to fly, the only ones with range were the blm and the archer and that's not going to do much. If the 12 gods couldn't reseal bahumut, I don't think 6 adventurers was going to do much.

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Wait, are you saying that if we never leveled, we can get past all these quests and missions? If the said game play is inconsequential, why do we need to be at a certain level? Why do we need gear to do better damage to pass a quest?
Also, gameplay is part of the mechanics of the game. It is by it's very definition.

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Originally Posted by Laume

I believe I've addressed this already

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The only thing the game acknowledges in terms of "Gameplay" is that we've finished the quest, not the actions or events during gameplay that may have occurred. The game will NOT let the player continue the story until they've finished the quest as the story intended. Us dying and rechallenging a quest a dozen times is inconsequential because it doesn't reflect in the game at all because it isn't canonical to the story. If it were, our deaths would have a larger consequence then us merely respawning to try again. Hence why it's "inconsequential" because "Canonically" it never happened.

In plenty of instances where the NPC's even witnesses our death (Sometimes dying themselves) and failure during a quest they'll talk as if you never failed at all when you eventually finish it. According to the "Canon" our characters have never failed. Which has nothing to do with us, as the player failing. The mechanics I'm referring to are the ones that govern the plot and how the game operates.

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Originally Posted by Laume

In short, if you lose a fight, if this was a console game, you would have seen the "game over" screen and had to load frm the last save point. But since this is a mmorpg, there are no manual save points, you start at the auto save point of before the fight. And hence that's why you're allowed to view the same cut scene over and over again, which can "canonically" never happen.

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To be honest you've sort of refuted your own point in the same post. If we're playing an RPG game and lose in a fight, does the plot or the characters in the game acknowledge the loss? Can you use that instance as an example of the characters strengths or weaknesses? No, you can't because your loss during gameplay is "inconsequential" to the RPG, just as it is in FFXIV. Even the same characters you're playing as don't acknowledge their own loss.

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Originally Posted by Laume

After a while, just about every plot device is contrived. You think it's easy to jam out stories that's mind blowing for every job, every quest? Do you know how hard that is? That's like expecting your favorite to make every song they put out your absolute favorite. This is a game, made by human, on a deadline, with a budget. There are stronger stories and there are weaker stories. If you have a way to create top-knotch, intriguing stories 100% of the time, by all means. All of humanity since the invention of the story has been looking for a way to do that.

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No, what makes a plot device contrived is when you can easily spot it's use. As someone else mentioned, it doesn't feel genuine and comes off more like "Gotta catch 'em all" which hollows out the plot, and makes its purpose transparent. And they did a very good job "jamming" out interesting and diverse stories in the other quests, so why should the Jobs be any different?

Well I'll tell you. The Jobs were added as an after thought and weren't as well thought-out as the other quests. They added shallow, trite and equally unlikely sequence of stories for the players to get these new jobs.

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Originally Posted by Laume

So none of the above points by themselves explain why all this seems "unrealistic". But when put together (some bars lowered and other rates of things increased), you can see how these things, although unrealistic to normal people, is still in the realm of possibility, even in the real world, if certain criteria are met. None of which, are the job system.

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Originally Posted by Laume

You don't realize why the story is written like that? It's because they're trying to write to a general template that we fill in ourselves. If you see these stories with characters as Sue/Stu as you put it, that's, as much as I hate to say this, a reflection of *you*. A self projection of *you*. They can't write to complex backgrounds because we fill in the gaps on the own backgrounds. They can't write to flaws because they don't know what *our* flaws are. One of the great things about customization is that they give *us* the ability to choose the character we want. But the flaws of that is that they *can't* write and check for every possibility. Again, due to time, money, budget, etc, constraints. Really, I really hate to have to say this but, after this much dismissal and ignoring of points I've made and replying with points that have nothing to do with the quotes that you've posted, I'm beginning to think that it's not the game that's dull. It's you. Your projection of yourself is dull and you're blaming the system for it.

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Our characters are not the template, the only choices we make that have any effect on our characters in the game is when we initially invent them. After that we follow a set path designed for us by the creators. In order for us, the players, to "project" ourselves and immerse is to create a convincing illusion that we are in control. That alone relies solely on how believable the story is.

For example, in a horror movie let's say Jessica is driving down a long highway that winds through the countryside. Uh oh, her phone suddenly has no connection, and she's about to run out of gas, oh and she's naked. Oh and there's a rapist/serial killer who just so happens to have been running rampant on that exact highway. She pulls over and runs down a long empty field completely naked and even though that highway runs on endlessly through several states the killer just so happens to be waiting exactly where she stopped. The plot devices to set her up for disaster are just so unbelievable and contrived that it becomes trite and distasteful.

Though like you mentioned, it's well within the realm of possibility for that to happen. But that certainly does not provide any justification for the improbability of the situation. In terms of FFXIV, the idea that our character always has perfect timing, and never fails is.. well, distasteful and contrived. The stories were poorly constructed, and like a bad horror movie had me rolling my eyes the whole time until I was staring at my own brain wondering what the hell I was even doing.

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Originally Posted by Laume

I'm starting to believe that you don't believe a word of that at all. Well, not the first half. I've already covered most of this before so I'm not going to repeat myself again. But again, all I wanted to point out was that your point of someone being able to master a lot of things being unrealistic is not a logically sound. None of the points, if I might add, you've provided counter proof to and simply dismissed or just restated your initial point.

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I'm starting to believe that our ideas of what is, and isn't "realistic" vary greatly. You believe that anything with a possibility of occurring is "realistic", while I tend to have a more practical mindset on the likelyhood of said instances coming to fruition. Even Aristotle mentioned that instances that are improbable aren't realistic. You can rely on an improbable possibility just as much as you can expect to win the lottery.