I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Generally, "filler rotation" is the term; yes, that would include the entire standard rotation. That's how filler is normally defined.

And procs can't be part of "filler" by definition since they aren't always available to fill with.

An example would be PLD having a filler rotation of 1-2-3-Atonement-A-A-Holy Spirit. That's their "entire rotation lmao", but it also happens to be their filler.

Tell me, what would you define PLD's "filler" as? If "entire rotation" isn't allowed, what's the "filler"?

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I haven't actually read the rest of this conversation, but I saw PLD questions so I'll give my 2c.

'Filler' is context dependent when talking about PLD.

It can broadly refer to all GCD's executed between 60's burst phases, or can refer to the additional GCD's executed during FoF that are NOT blades/goring if burst is specifically being discussed.

PLD's filler would be roughly analogous to the crayon eating phase of SMNs rotation.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

While Holy Spirit CAN be used AS a filler unbuffed, this is a DPS loss.

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This is not strictly true; Hardcasting unbuffed HS is gainful situationally.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Nonono, that wasn't my question.

Can you tell me what you define as filler for OTHER JOBS that you are familiar with which ARE NOT Summoner, please?

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I mean it doesn’t change anything you just want it as a cheap gatcha because you still think I explicitly define filler as lack of a fail state when that’s just part of why SMN feels like it’s all filler

But I’ll indulge you, filler is the repetitive actions that you do outside of the burst window or a sub burst window, they may or may not have a fail state

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

PLD's filler would be roughly analogous to the crayon eating phase of SMNs rotation.

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Well, that's something, and I do appreciate that (also HS, but I was trying to be general/simplistic for people). But doesn't well answer the question.

What would YOU define as filler for the Jobs you play/are familiar with that are NOT Summoner?

You guys are eating my post limit by giving not-quite answers, but I'm trying to make shorter posts since people have asked for it. I hope it's appreciated and good faith discussion (rather than evasion) can be had, otherwise I'll have to go back.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean it doesn’t change anything you just want it as a cheap gatcha because you still think I explicitly define filler as lack of a fail state when that’s just part of why SMN feels like it’s all filler

But I’ll indulge you, filler is the repetitive actions that you do outside of the burst window or a sub burst window, they may or may not have a fail state

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It's not a "cheap gotcha".

I DO suspect your evasiveness may be due to if you have to define it for other Jobs, I can point out that you're being unfair to SMN. That would be a reason for you to refuse to answer the question. But no, you didn't indulge me, and I'm not trying to figure out that to rub your nose in it. I want to work out what you see as filler in other Jobs. I didn't ask for a definition of filler.

What I asked for is EXAMPLES of filler from other Jobs so I can see what they have in common and try to work out a working definition of filler based on your own practical examples. It's not a "gotcha", I'm trying to figure out what you ACTUALLY see as filler abilities in other Jobs, so I can compare THOSE examples to SMN abilities to see which SMN abilities meet that same criteria.

EDIT: For example, if you DON'T consider Requiescat/Confetti/Swords to be "filler", then Searing Light/Summon Bahamut/Astral Impulse wouldn't be filler. If you consider the latter filler, then you must also consider the former filler. This is why I need to see PRACTICAL EXAMPLES and abilities, not a definition. :ENDEDIT

I'm going to try to assume you aren't acting in bad faith one more time by asking the question once more:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Can you tell me what you define as filler for OTHER JOBS that you are familiar with which ARE NOT Summoner, please?

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Would you please answer THAT question, not substitute in other questions you'd rather answer instead. Thank you.

Once more:

Can you tell me what you define as filler for OTHER JOBS that you are familiar with which ARE NOT Summoner, please?

Not a definition, what ABILITIES do you consider part of the filler of other, NOT-Summoner Jobs? (and, if you like, their rotational order, though that's less needed).

How about if you want explicit answers don’t edit your excessively long posts afterwords to add more context to what you want answered, I already struggle to give enough of a damn to even read your comments directed at me let alone hang on edits you make later

But whatever let’s use DNC, DNC’s filler is 1(2)3(4) standard step on CD with a few exceptions very close to the technical window or if you overcap on resources

DNC’s burst revolves around the technical window and dumping resources, DNC’s burst has 3 main failstates
1) you did technical wrong and didn’t get the max bonus
2) you didn’t save up resources so you aren’t using saber dance or fans in your burst you are resorting to spamming your filler
3) you desync your CD’s (devilment, flourish and standard step) so they fall outside of your burst

So your burst has failstates, it is a distinctly different rotation due to saber, tilana, flourish procs and starfall dance and your filler builds towards it while still having its own failstates

SMN meanwhile Bahamut and pheonix don’t care about the 3 primals, all 5 you end up spamming aspected ruin 3 with an oGCD and there is nothing you can do to actually break your rotation down, the worst you can do is interrupt a ruby ruin cast or maybe drop a ruin 4

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

In casual content where dps checks are either nihil or incredibly low, doing shitty dps really doesn’t matter. They will still clear that eventually. So why care?

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Normal content is created for exactly that reason, it's made to be cleared by most players.

It's the same with job difficuilty.. you want easy/middle/hard and ffxiv do have this - with SMN beeing the easiest among them.
easy jobs --> it's an entry point for less experienced players into the game..

It didnt have to be SMN, they could have created a new job and it would serve the same purpose..
However SE choose to rework SMN and thats what we have atm..

I'm only being specific with BLM because I'm not arrogant enough to claim expertise in other jobs. The purpose of fillers is to maintain consistent timing of a jobs main rotation to avoid it drifting out of alignment. It cannot just refer to a rotation as a whole otherwise they wouldn't be considered separate aspects.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Well, that's something, and I do appreciate that (also HS, but I was trying to be general/simplistic for people). But doesn't well answer the question.

What would YOU define as filler for the Jobs you play/are familiar with that are NOT Summoner?

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The simple answer is the actions taken that fall between between more rigid burst phases, which tend to fall at 1 or 2 minute intervals. Filler often has greater flexibility than other aspects of a jobs rotation; In SMN's case, it can reorder it's mini-phases. In PLD's case, you can heavily manipulate the way your atonements and DMHS fall.

The more complex answer is that it's highly dependent on the particular job you are talking about, and has unique community-accepted definitions in the case of each particular job.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

How about if....

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I get you're mad at being pinned down, but please chill. I asked nicely MULTIPLE times.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

But whatever let’s use DNC, DNC’s filler is 1(2)3(4) standard step on CD with a few exceptions very close to the technical window or if you overcap on resources

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Okay, this is something to work with. So, DNC's filler, in your mind, includes Cascade, Fountain, Reverse Cascade, Fountainfall, and Standard Step on CD.

Fair?

What these actions seem to have in common is that they're direct damage actions where two of them don't have preconditions (though Fountain can be used incorrectly), two of them do but the preconditions are light (they require a proc from one of the former two), and one of them has a CD, but it's a very short CD, less than 60 seconds (you didn't include Flourish, so I'm using "less than 60 seconds" as a working category here). Probably the better way to say that is 30 seconds (inclusive) or less?

So it would be fair to say things with a CD of greater than 60 or more seconds (so 59 or less is filler, 60 or more is not), which aren't always readily available, and which you want to use together and maximize by using within the party burst window(s), and your filler builds towards, would basically be non-filler?

So in the case of SMN, Primals, Gemshine, Aastral Flow, and Ruin 3 would be filler by this definition.

Demis, Searing Light, Enkindle, Astral Flow (for Baha/Phoenix), Energy Drain/Siphon, Fester/Painflare, and Ruin 4 would not be filler, nor would Ruin 3 while under Bahamut or Phoenix.

Again, it's not "fail states", so that's irrelevant. I'm looking at what are filler and non-filler actions in your example, and applying them fairly to SMN by looking at comparable abilities. (Granted, I'd rather you use literally any Job OTHER THAN DNC [or BLM] since DNC has the proc business going on, but...)

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Can you give examples of any other Jobs?

Did you disagree with my RDM definition of Jolt/Thunder/Jolt/Aero (replace Jolt with Stone/Fire as procs available) are filler actions, for example?

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

I'm only being specific with BLM because I'm not arrogant enough to claim expertise in other jobs.

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I didn't ask for expertise.

I asked what you consider filler in other Jobs besides BLM. You don't need to be an expert to know how RDM works, for example. You CLEARLY don't for SMN, apparently.

You gave a definition there, "to maintain consistent timing of a jobs main rotation to avoid it drifting out of alignment"; pick ANY JOB IN THE GAME besides SMN or BLM and tell me which actions/abilities fit that definition.

^”i get you are mad at being pinned down” he says after I get annoyed you keep editing your comments to ask for more context later than get annoyed when people don’t see these edits and you do it in a post edit

The irony is truly delicious

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I think this is the problem, though:

People hate on new SMN when what they really hate is old SMN being gone. Then make absolute statements like the above "current SMN should not exist" which aren't defensible.

Being upset old SMN is gone is absolutely understandable. I do sincerely hope they add a new Caster with old SMN's type of gameplay.

...but that's no argument against CURRENT SMN being a good Job.

Current SMN is a very well designed Job. It's one of the few in the game that "read your tooltips" is actually good advice (instead of "read an online guide") to learn how to play it.

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being immediately understandable doesn't make it an all around well designed job, or rather it shouldn't be the only determining factor. yes, it is a merit worth attributing to SMN, but I still feel like that is only circumstantial to how frictionless the whole job is with any of its systems.

I don't think it's well designed that Carbuncle could be cut from the kit altogether with little to no consequence. all it ends up doing is making Radiant Aegis tedious to use because carby keeps popping out of existence and I can only imagine it's because the dev team wants to limit the amount of entities a player can create.

I don't think it's well designed that Aetherflow is just there when now would have been the best time to tie them back to demi-summons so the chokehold they have on the rotation can feel at least a little more fluid or cohesive. in its current state it's nothing more than vestigial damage buttons giving the vague impression of a resource gauge. my thoughts for Ruin 4 are the exact same, it feels like it's just there because the dev team couldn't think of any other way to integrate it into the rotation.

I don't think demi-summons are well designed, because they're mostly just ShB demis made to be automated to disguise the fact that they didn't actually fix pet jank. furthermore, being flat cooldowns just makes the rotation unnecessarily rigid and it limits the design of the job for future changes.

I don't think gems are well designed, they don't last long enough for any implications of having to choose/order them to be meaningful, especially when one crit Akh Morn can render what little optimization there is to be had with gems moot. additionally, like everything else, they don't interact with anything. they don't have to for it to be an enjoyable mechanic, but in the context of everything else in the kit it only piles onto the problems of its systems being disconnected and just. there.

I know you didn't ask for it, but considering your reply I felt obligated to make a SMN related post that isn't just "old job good new rework bad."