The tawdry female bosses are tiresome, and we could do with more male fanservice.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

and.. Cerberus.

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I forgot about him even though his fight is a lot more difficult than Scylla's. In my defense Cerberus pops up in practically everything so he's easy to overlook while Scylla is an uncommon sight so tends to stand out.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

They don't avoid Arthurian theres literally a Knights of the Round boss

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Well, without Coventina (the Lady of the Lake), Arthur and/or Merlin... Arthurian legends are far more wide then just a round table with twelve folks.

The problem behind Greek legends is they often involve Zeus and one of his illegitimate sons (or this kind of story) XD

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

Well, without Coventina (the Lady of the Lake), Arthur and/or Merlin... Arthurian legends are far more wide then just a round table with twelve folks.

The problem behind Greek legends is they often involve Zeus and one of his illegitimate sons (or this kind of story) XD

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And odins horse isn't problematic?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

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Well... I thought it was easy to understand my way of talking about Zeus and his illegitimate sons was some kind of irony but only as a humour trait... It seems the smiley was not enough. *disappointed*

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

Well... I thought it was easy to uderstand my way of talking about Zeus and his illegitimate sons was some kind of irony but only as a humour trait... It seems the smiley was not enough. *disappointed*

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Apologies the joke went over my head.

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Originally Posted by Joven

It's not a loaded question because it's something that's been around pretty much forever. Men get shamed for looking at a porn magazine yet women can read smutty romance novels that are just verbal pornography, which objectify both men and women, and it's perfectly acceptable (think 50 Shades of Gray). Women objectify themselves by reading books like that, but for some reason it's only bad if they believe men are doing it to them. On top of that it's an assumption that just because something is appealing that it's being objectified. It's entirely possible to admire and be attracted to something and not objectify it. As I've said before women are traditionally viewed as elegant and graceful, but somewhere down the line, somehow, it became a problem to appreciate that elegance and grace.

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I only say it's loaded because it is incredibly nuanced and therefore to voice for any reason automatically becomes a personal attack to some. Simply the nature of the question and I accepted it the moment I hit post.

But I understand what you mean.
Also, understand that I agree with you here. If you go back to my original post you'll see that I stated that if the content isn't meant primarily for sexual purposes (romance novels, smut, certain steam games amirite lol) then the imbalance of our eyecandy can cause conversations like this. I have no issue with content purpose primarily for those purposes. I as well as I have no issue with appealing male and female alike. I adore them both. From my trash Zenos to our majestic Titania to the harrowed Tsukiyomi are some of my most favorite storylines and character designs.

I also agree that yes, it's without question that women can be beautiful without objectification. But herein lies the issue. Developers hold a hand in character design here. In how they express female and male concepts and also in what they give us in term of customisation can speak volumes. As a game designer I can see this. As another post said, developers design women and give us the ability to customise female characters to a much broader level of expression. This we cannot doubt and there is nothing wrong with this broad scope. But if we turn that perspective onto male personas, there is a limitation in expression from the view of developer design. As many have already said, there is something missing with our male counterparts. A lacking.

This is also not about the traditional view of women or men. If I'm not wrong, most are are here speaking about eyecandy. I have no qualms about either of them to be honest though.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

As another post said, developers design women and give us the ability to customise female characters to a much broader level of expression. This we cannot doubt and there is nothing wrong with this broad scope. But if we turn that perspective onto male personas, there is a limitation in expression from the view of developer design. As many have already said, there is something missing with our male counterparts. A lacking.

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I missed the post you're referring to (and the thread is too long to go searching for it) but if you're talking about this game specifically then I feel like there's more variety to the character designs for male characters - both in faces and body shapes - and while "lack of male glamour" seems to be a running talking point around here it seems to be partly about personal taste and a narrow definition of masculine clothing.

That said, there are differences in what the genders are given to wear that run along the same lines as the discussion over bosses. If outfits have gendered differences or counterparts, women get more revealing outfits and men get fully-covered ones. While it doesn't affect every gear piece, when it does it reinforces those stereotypes of how each gender "should" dress (or perhaps how it's expected that players will want to dress their characters).

It's frustrating when you want to go against that stereotype - in my case, mostly wanting to keep my female mage in less revealing outfits.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

If outfits have gendered differences or counterparts, women get more revealing outfits and men get fully-covered ones. While it doesn't affect every gear piece, when it does it reinforces those stereotypes of how each gender "should" dress (or perhaps how it's expected that players will want to dress their characters).

It's frustrating when you want to go against that stereotype - in my case, mostly wanting to keep my female mage in less revealing outfits.

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I don't really give a shit about Fanservice in most cases, but what grinds my gears is when they strip away parts of a perfectly good outfit for the female variant. As a man of culture, and one who is using a female avatar, I can't count you the amount of times where I thought a piece of gear would've just been good if it didn't have a dumb belly, chest or shoulder spot.

I think men should be able to run around in thongs and women in bikinis all they like, but when the male level 50 dragoon gear is kickass as shit(infamous example, yes, I know), and then the female variant has more holes than a swiss cheese, I get more than a bit irate. That being said, when both outfits are equally revealing for both genders, I'm all for it, too.

Point is, while I don't really care if the bosses are all scantily clad women, I really hate having to wear a dumber, less cool-looking variant of a piece of gear simply because I'm playing with a female character. It's why you'll see me run around in the only suits of armor and robes that cover my whole body, since I like that aesthetic much more than whatever the hell this was meant to accomplish.

It looks dumb.

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

Not totally true. If you learn to draw, you will fast realize that to draw someone who look to be a girl/women or someone who look the be a man will share some specific shape rules based on "biological gender" (as an average).

Head skeleton of a woman and head skeleton of a man can be identified as such. You can know if it is a woman or a man based of the width of the pelvis. So no, it is not cultural or education, a part is purely genetical since humans, as any mammal has genetical inherited reproduction criterias.

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There's no such thing as "biological gender". Gender is a social and cultural construct designed to promote masculinity and a patriarchal society. I'm not refuting that there are differences between the biological sexes. Men are rugged and women are sexy is nothing to do with the skeletal make up or reproductive organs.

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

I get your point but I can't let pass such formulation as "social gender norms". Hormones have real impact on brain. I can't let says it is cultural especially since neo-feminist talk a way that despises feminity as if it was something bad or the result of some machist culture. Women in Sweden are, based on feminist criterias, more free to choose than women in asia. What did researchers discover : women in Sweden tend to choose more "feminine" studies when women in asia will choose rather "masculine" studies. Based on current neo-feminist theories, it should be the opposite.

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Again, there is no such thing as "masculine" or "feminine" studies. Just what your culture has indoctrinated you to believe. Women can be bricklayers, men can design dresses for a living.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

There's no such thing as "biological gender". Gender is a social and cultural construct designed to promote masculinity and a patriarchal society. I'm not refuting that there are differences between the biological sexes. Men are rugged and women are sexy is nothing to do with the skeletal make up or reproductive organs.



Again, there is no such thing as "masculine" or "feminine" studies. Just what your culture has indoctrinated you to believe. Women can be bricklayers, men can design dresses for a living.

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And tell me, how can you be certain that you are not the one indoctrinated by our current culture?