5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"SE, what are you thinking, no one will play Bard now if Machinist just does more damage!"

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I mean that's fixed by giving bard some utility and buffing dancer's skill potencies so that they're not abysmally low. I don't think people much care for the current iteration of bard where your only utility is an addle/feint with twice the cooldown and battle voice which really doesn't give much dps contribution.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Yes, of course. It's not rocket science. The thing is, it's basically always been that way. Support jobs have always done less raw damage than damage dealing jobs. Only now it's a "problem" because it's more apparent, or something.

So the only solution is to get rid of support jobs and just have every DD at 15k DPS (or whatever arbitrary number you want to input). You can't have support jobs deal as much damage as raw dps jobs, because then they would boost each other and exclude the raw dps jobs eventually. Even so, if all the jobs then do more base DPS, SE simply designs bosses to have more HP. It's a horizontal shift that doesn't actually grow into anything new or interesting.

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What support? The Range now have one 10% mitigation CD while the Casters have Addle. Even Dancer's support is primarily damaged based, thus it should even out. Regardless, support jobs have routinely dominated. Bard, for example, ended Heavensward as the strongest DPS in the game. Summoner pulled ahead of Black Mage until Alphascape and we all know the prevalence Ninja. Support jobs aren't really a thing anywhere. Which is why the damage discrepancies have become such an issue. Bard isn't bringing passive Crit buffs, Refresh and etc. All they're offering is the aforementioned mitigation which is arguably comparable to melee Feint, and Minne. The latter of which is laughably inferior to Mantra.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"SE, what are you thinking, no one will play Bard now if Machinist just does more damage!"

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During SB, Bard was last DPS or very close to the last spot or fighting over Ninja's to not be the very last.
Do you remember MCH's popularity? That's right, there was 3 to 4 times more BRD than MCH even during the 6% Hypercharge era.

A job will be played regardless of its damage, the gameplay and identity is what attracts a player.
All jobs are "viable to clear content" but we have to step out of this "viable enough" box.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Bard isn't bringing passive Crit buffs, Refresh and etc. All they're offering is the aforementioned mitigation which is arguably comparable to melee Feint, and Minne. The latter of which is laughably inferior to Mantra.

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thats the big one, the "support" jobs all lost a ton of effective support while gaining 0 personal damage in return, it may very well be that say a bard that does 10% less personal dps than a blackmage but offers 2% passive crit, foe's requiem, battle voice and refresh is "overpowered", but there is an enourmous gap between "10% less dps and 3 damage buffs+a really usefull support skill" and 13-15% less [personal] dps and 1 damage buff+nothing else wortwhile.

also i would argue refresh is actually the biggest offender for casual groups here, the rest comes in play at a speedkill meta level, i at least can say that my last three (casual) statics all made sure to have a bard or mch (they didn't even care which of them, just their were more bards) but not for the dps but for refresh.

Also if dps "support" at a perfect level barely breaks even with personal dps of "selfish" classes that would mean that instead of (just for example) going from bard going from 5% worse->5% better than blackmage depending on group composition we simply go from bard 10% worse->bard barely able to break even depending on group composition, and while i get that it sucks to be excluded from anything, even if its "just" the speedkill meta i'm not sure i would call the "'support' is allways worse" version better balanced than the "'in an ideal group the 'support' class may overtake the 'pure' class, while in a non-meta combination it may actually be the other way around and in reality they will probably meet somewhere in the middle in any non meta speedkill party"

at least not as long as the only "support" they offer that others don't is dps support, if people really want to argue how useful nature's minne for example is we might aswell start calling manaward support as if it keeps you alive it saves the healers mana because s/he doesn't have to rezz you

Honestly though if fflog dont show rdps ninja and the other synergy job will still be prefered for number justice...

The timing of SE decision of weakening the synergy job and fflog decision to show rdps come put as the worst outcome

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Honestly though if fflog dont show rdps ninja and the other synergy job will still be prefered for number justice...

The timing of SE decision of weakening the synergy job and fflog decision to show rdps come put as the worst outcome

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The worst outcome for SE, for sure. Now a job's standing is much more visible to the general public. There's no more guesstimating what Trick Attack adds to what a Ninja brings to the party, we all see it plain as day.

It makes class balance discussions much simpler too, both because we see what every job more or less brings to the party, but also it's much harder to pad an individual job's damage. The site should have updated to rDPS/aDPS years ago.

Yes imagine if rdps rankings didn't exist, there's a decent chance overpowered jobs like black mage would be able to 'hide' how overtuned they are. People would look at black mage doing, for example, 16,000 pdps, and summoner with 13,000 pdps, and handwave it away with unscientific excuses like "Oh it's pdps, people probably like to pad black mages more" or "I bet devotion is actually worth 3000 dps (lol) so summoners are actually not behind". The only way people would notice is when high end speedrunning groups realize they're getting far faster clears with blm/mnk/drg comps and slowly everyone gravitates to that and people start noticing that trend. That would've taken months to sink in, now all that data is out in the open visible to everyone from day 1.

In that vein, I have to question how true the claim is that jobs like summoner were actually strong in Stormblood. Rdps rankings did not exist back then, so it's not like there's any numerical proof. Black mages were already doing more pdps than summoners in alphascape, and the actual choice to run with summoner was just, again, unscientific handwaving like "I bet devotion contributes more damage than the pdps advantage that blm has". If you look at the speedrun rankings for alphascape, since speed is the clearest indicator of rdps, you'll see that the top 5 runs for all fights all feature black mage in it. In fact, in some fights black mage is present in 4-5 of the top 5 rankings, so clearly it isn't as weak as some people claim.

Of course player perception is another story. It doesn't always match up with reality because information takes time to trickle down and influence behavior. A job can be strong but unpopular (HW ranged), or weak but popular (current ranged). Like I have said before, black mage was objectively balanced in alphascape, but also underplayed because the bad reputation they had from the start of the expansion took time to wear off. SE probably balances partially around the playrate numbers of the job, so seeing everyone abandon black mage probably led to the panic buffs and the current overpowered state of the job. Now the situation is reversed and summoner is in that position, and mark my words history will repeat itself again.

Been silently reading forums for awhile while letting numbers in logs stabalize a bit.

Turns out SAM on average has better rDPS than NIN with all the buffs by a very very minor margin. My point being many NIN were happy with their upgrade, but tons of SAM were complaining massively about not getting enough of a buff with 5.08. I still say that NIN should be capable of more rDPS than any other melee, but at the moment im actually quite content with the melee balance except MNK still needs to be reigned in a bit. 5.1 reworks gonna be scary.

In my mind this below is still the goal.

Pdps melee should be SAM>DRG>MNK>NIN
Rdps should be
NIN>DRG>SAM=MNK(mantra) and by much smaller disparity margins than pdps (like 300 dps max disparity at 75th percentile up)

Ranged are still being shafted harder than they deserve. I do think the ease full mobility provides needs to be taxed some, but it should honestly not be more than 500 dps max in current content. Its too steep right now. Also they need more support too in general. That 10% mitigation is cool, but honestly melee and casters can do a more limited similar effect with their stat breakers on the enemy. And melee have more stay alive tools with bloodbath. BLM even has manaward and I as a NIN main have shade shift. Bard needs more utility. Dnc needs more pdps. Mch as well some.

SMN is also a bit off but still not as bad as RDM. I also dont think raise should be taxed much more than 500 dps max. That being said BLM might need an extremely mild nerf too. Id like to see dps raise removed from casters solely and made more reliant on dps phoenix down usage with high cooldown (600 seconds effectively each dps can use one per fight)

I still think SB nin was overvalued for its trick. In pug setting trick was minimal value. The true value nin brought was shadewalker and smoke screen and how it enabled tanks to stay out of tank stance more. I really do wish we had rdps measurements of that time tho. I remember being told trick was worth 1.5k back in stormblood.

In ShB its worth about 900 we see now, so there is no possible way it was worth 1.5k in SB when damage was lower.

They need to remove trick attack, just like they remove slashing debuff from warrior...ninja too. If Ninja gets closer to personal dps been decent, a lot of people will want ninja again for trick attack

Just reading the forums, and I am noticing a rather cyclical pattern or something of the like. First it’s BLM needs a nerf, then it’s MNK needs a nerf, then it’s DRG needs a nerf. Now we have moved on too “after looking at fflogs, all three need a nerf but BLM needs a mild nerf.” Then it was, “after looking at logs, BLM actually does not need a nerf and MNK should be brought down along with DRG because they bring raid utility buffs and have high PDPS.” Now it’s on to, “NIN still needs more, SAM still needs more because it is apparently not greedy enough, SMN was not addressed enough and is considered a bench warmer now and people don’t like the power difference, RDM got no love and is still seen as a Rez-bot, WHM needs a nerf because it overshadows the other healers so now healers are still raging for not getting any attention in the last patch, WAR is the weakest tank supposedly because it is not doing the most damage out of all the tanks from what I learned from other tank mains so now I am levelling tanks to do some comparisons on my own, DRK is considered a WAR clone with delirium acting like infuriate supposedly, melee DPS/BLM are considered DPS overlords because they get all of the attention when those jobs are not working right.” Forgive me if I missed some other claim that was made but these are all the common threads I see consistently. When will this folly end?! This doesn’t seem like people want jobs fixed. Seems like more complaining and unhappy people who want nothing more than to have things their way. The main problem is that people don’t know what want. Make up your mind! Pick a position and stick too it! Why are people so unhappy? It gets old too play a game and people complain about jobs because they are not living up to their power fantasy. I hate saying this but if you can at least clear the content then you are good to go. Sit back and wait until the DEVs address the DPS discrepancies and then voice your opinions.