Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

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But that goes both ways. No matter what, the healers are going to have to heal you up the same amount regardless. Having extra vit is more margin for error, ensures that you can handle more and more on your own without having the healers panic heal you from a tank buster. If the onus is on the tanks having a DPS trinket or two in order to down a boss, there are more problems with your static than a slightly lower damage tank.

We don't HAVE to be cutting edge 100% of the time. Sometimes it's better to prioritize personal safety if it means staying alive longer to keep the DPS alive longer.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

And if the tank gets hit with a few unlucky crits in a row? What then? Boiling it down to "lol git gud" is a stupid dismissal to act like a glorified DPS. Your first priority should be, as a tank, to hold aggro and mitigate damage, which is what the accessories do by giving you more eHP. The idea that we have to forego the accessories for our item level to get accessories from the last expansion because "hurrdurr its more dps" is not what I signed up for as a paladin.

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This is a valid concern. You should, as a tank, always strive to develop an understanding of how much damage each attack does, and what the timings are. You should know the average crit values for autos. You should know the timing of cleaves. This information gives you an idea of what is safe, and what isn't. If there's a risk of autos syncing up with tankbusters, then you need to be able to have enough eHP to at least survive both a crit auto and the tankbuster by a reasonable factor of safety. If you don't have this information, you're forced to play it safe until you've gathered the knowledge that you need. The most aggressive tanks in farm are often the most defensively minded in prog.

Tanking is an active process, not a passive one. As you learn more and more about the fight, you become more efficient. You learn the HP thresholds. You learn which parts have less tank damage and more raid damage, allowing you to drop stance more. You learn places where you can shield your teammates to reduce the healing load, allowing your healers more windows to dps (your healers are learning how to heal more efficiently to push their dps while this is happening, too). You learn where to use your active cooldowns in a way that makes you far, far more defensive than any "defensively-minded" tank, without compromising your damage contribution to the team either. You learn to quickly identify when your team is in trouble, and what defensive countermeasures you can take to stop things from spiralling out of control. You learn when to be greedy, and when to be safe. Tanking is about knowledge, awareness, and good judgement. A sizeable number of the tanks who are playing with their offensive and defensive balance aren't simply being reckless or blindly following trends. They're making measured decisions based a thorough understanding of the defensive requirements of a fight.

I think the point isn't really to show off certain tanks as being "higher skill", but rather to show an ideal towards every tank should strive towards.

Oh, I'm not saying we shouldn't play efficiently. Maximizing our DPS should definitely be a consideration as you gear, and if a tank can get away with using Slaying accessories, more power to them. I just resent the idea that I'm seeing, more and more, that using Vit accessories makes one a bad tank, when it really doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

When you think about yourself, and only yourself, you are going to be like

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Nah, if I was only thinking about myself I'd go full slaying and yell "HEALERS ADJUST" into my microphone instead of being a team player and ensuring the content is cleared. Full STR is only for tanks that care less about surviving and more about their parses because "MUH DEEPS".

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Oh, I'm not saying we shouldn't play efficiently. Maximizing our DPS should definitely be a consideration as you gear, and if a tank can get away with using Slaying accessories, more power to them. I just resent the idea that I'm seeing, more and more, that using Vit accessories makes one a bad tank, when it really doesn't.

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Im not complaining about anyone using Anything, im just saying using STR doesnt make a tank bad as the OP (and many other people) is stating, also i like to state that VIT is such a meaningless stat once you have enough, so the solution is not "use i270 for ever" but "SE please AT LEAST add str to Tanks accesories."

This is like "healer should/shouldnt dps" all over again, saying that "the more Vit the better cuz healers will be less stressed" (wich is not entirely true since 90% of the time im going to precast my heals/have an isnta heal ready on a tank buster), witht that same logic healers should not dps, because the most MP they have to spare the better, right? i mean its safer to sit at 20kMp than sitting on 8k because i can crazy heal if i feel like.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Nah, if I was only thinking about myself I'd go full slaying and yell "HEALERS ADJUST" into my microphone instead of being a team player and ensuring the content is cleared. Full STR is only for tanks that care less about surviving and more about their parses because "MUH DEEPS".

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As long as they survive enough for me to cast my heals, i dont mind finishing a dungeon faster.

Once again, im not saying having VIT at all is bad, im saying over doing it is pointless (not bad)....
Having Enough VIT with more Dmg = Killing things faster AND surviving everything (including tank busters) while using mitigation skills.
Overdoing VIT= Surviving everything (including tank busters) while using mitigation skills.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

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Who's talking about dungeons? I'm talking about going into Savage/Extremes with 33k or less HP because the meta says to shed all Vit, go pure STR, and yell "HEALERS ADJUST".

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Who's talking about dungeons? I'm talking about going into Savage/Extremes with 33k or less HP because the meta says to shed all Vit, go pure STR, and yell "HEALERS ADJUST".

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I don't want to be that guy but there's this website where people upload parses. If you go there and look at speed runs you can see that, not only can tanks tank the current ex primals in all slaying accessories, but their healers also do more than 3k dps combined.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Who's talking about dungeons? I'm talking about going into Savage/Extremes with 33k or less HP because the meta says to shed all Vit, go pure STR, and yell "HEALERS ADJUST".

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I mean I'm going to heal a tank when their hp is dropping or they take a buster. All that matters is they survive the hit. Whether a tank has 30k or 50k or 100k hp there is no adjustment I heal incoming damage. Vita doesn't giv mitigation so it doesn't really matter. Rarely do you ever see tank advice in any mmo saying just max out hp cause you can.

DPS classes expriencing 30mins queue's comes to forums to vent and find out why his queue's are so long. DPS finds out tanks are quiting due to massive damage nerf, said dps say your job is to tank and nothing more. Tank community explains that isn't it only, NO YOU SHOULDN'T wear slaying gear dps says. His queue becomes 35mins, you dps coming to the tank forums to piss of even more tanks only hurt your role, which is the easiet role in the game to play (which is why most people play it). Most mechanics in game are done by tanks.

Looks just look at HW for not most the people here did not play ARR.
Sephirot EX Tanks had to do the mechanics.
Sophia EX Tanks again had to do most the mechanics.
Zuvuran equal share of responsibility.

Gordias what did dps have to worry about that no other class had to?
Midas Had more tank mech then dps.
Alexanderian yep that was a tank raid nuff said.

Void Ark
Weeping City
Dunscaith
All about equal on the mech front for all roles.

Minstrels Ballads
Ultima Tank mech the game
Thoradin Tank Mech the game
Nidhogg eveyone shared mechs about the same



What tank classes are responsible for, avoid tank busters and AOE dps just need to avoid aoe, responsible for the raid living and dying you miss that buster on alexander 4-5 people are dying you miss that aoe on alexander you just cost the healers mana who responsible for far more then what dps is responsible for, i would like to go on but in the wish to not make a wall of text ill stop there if you want more context i would be happy to oblige. Yes i played roles to the end game of HW and finished it and i had to worry about way less on my dps then anything else.

Final point to my dps posters i ask you this, this may not apply to you but its a general thing i have noticed.

When was the last time your saw these things.
Shadewalkers from ninja's
Smoke bombs from ninja's
Mantras from monks
Apoth of black mages
Virus's from SMN's before busters or heavy aoes
Mana song from a bard with the healer having to beg
The mana thingy from Machinist

Now you can say oh well tanks aren't stance dancing so its apparent in all classes but if your argument is that A tanks job is to tank and you don't help that said tank or healers with your various utility tools while your in defense if your role overwhelmingly under-performing in there role in general make you guys sound like morons in general.

I think depsite of you being a healer, a tank or a dps, the any class should be having fun while playing that class.... i play healer because i like multi-tasking, dpsing while keeping people alive, i also play DPS when i dont want to babysit people, because i like to maximise my dmg.... Tanks play tanks because they like to be in the front line and mitigate damage but also DPSing, if the tanks themselves are nto having fun because of their dmg being too low, do you think the right solution is just go and yell at them "GET OVER IT AND KEEP TANKING SO I CAN KEEP DOING MY DPS STUFF! " well, longer Ques for you then.