Strength Tanks

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Hm. I wonder if there's a correlation here.

DPS, as of Heavensward, have all increased in complexity from 50-60. They tend to involve a lot of work in order to achieve maximum output. Following this, it would make sense that "bad DPS" are more common now than they were in ARR.

But what about Tanks? By and large their rotations for maximizing damage are all much simpler than a dedicated DPS, although Dark Knight is certainly the closest to that sort of level.

I wonder if there are any DPS out there who switched to a Tank job after not being able to cut it as a DPS, contenting themselves with being able to slap Slaying on and output a cool 1000-1100 DPS with a fraction of the effort it would have taken their previous class to reach 1400-1500?

It's pretty morbid if you think about it, isn't it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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This is very true, and it's a statement I heard when 3.0 was released.
The amazing players will really shine with the expansion of skills, and the previously decent to good players all of a sudden look awfully mediocre.

I think the tank classes are pretty simple to deal high amounts of damage in a lot of the encounters, the trick is simply the correct mitigation at the appropriate times.
I find when I play a DPS class, there is a lot more effort required in order to achieve really good damage.

That being said however, ALL of my DPS classes leveled to 60 will deal more damage than any of my tanks.
Even though the effort is arguably greater for the DPS classes, I don't feel dismal DPS is ever acceptable.

In that regard it is a bit of a numbers game. In 2.0 being 50 DPS lower than another equally geared player sure didnt look as bad as now in 3.0 which would be the equivalent to say 150 DPS.

But like others have said those sitting at what was possible in 2.0.....well I still don't think they could handle what is required to put out good DPS as a tank. It isn't quite as easy as slapping on DPS accessories.

Yeah tanks' DPS rotations are quite basic compared to pure DPS jobs, but DPSing as a tank isn't limited to get STR and do 1-2-3-1-4-5-1-4-6-repeat. It highly depends on the encounter, the incoming damage, and how you plan on mitigating it. You cannot go nuts on DPS 100% of the time as a tank, and knowing when you can do it and when you have to mitigate is what makes the complexity of it. There is unfortunately plenty of bad tanks who solely focus on DPS and get destroyed (then generally complains about healing). These are people trying to DPS, but failing because they don't know how to mitigate while doing it. These people certainly know the DPS rotation of their tank job, but they don't know anything about aggressive-tanking. Proper mitigation is the key to achieve high tank DPS.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

-snip-

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You've hit upon a very important point. I cannot comment completely in the case of MNK and DRG (MNK is at 53 and DRG just hit 60 this weekend with an Iwa-Toshi Kai and a patchwork of Alex and new dungeon gear), but the process of weaving 52-60 abilities is not as easy as some people think and is all the tougher while negotiating mechanics designed to disrupt DPS players' rhythm (let's not mention the occasional leaping off-screen, an utter bane to BLMs in the middle of Enochian or a SMN in the middle of their Aethertrail Attunement).

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Originally Posted by Hayward

but the process of weaving 52-60 abilities is not as easy as some people think

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Who the crap thinks that would be easy? Rotations are the main reason I refuse to main a DPS class.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

I wonder if there are any DPS out there who switched to a Tank job after not being able to cut it as a DPS, contenting themselves with being able to slap Slaying on and output a cool 1000-1100 DPS with a fraction of the effort it would have taken their previous class to reach 1400-1500?

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Those are probably the tanks I hate healing - the ones in Eso gear that mayaswell be using tissue paper.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

You've hit upon a very important point. I cannot comment completely in the case of MNK and DRG (MNK is at 53 and DRG just hit 60 this weekend with an Iwa-Toshi Kai and a patchwork of Alex and new dungeon gear), but the process of weaving 52-60 abilities is not as easy as some people think and is all the tougher while negotiating mechanics designed to disrupt DPS players' rhythm (let's not mention the occasional leaping off-screen, an utter bane to BLMs in the middle of Enochian or a SMN in the middle of their Aethertrail Attunement).

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Monk didn't seem to have changed much as compared to some of the others, but I could just be doing it wrong.

I was completely turned off to BLM because of the new rotation, though.

As a healer, if you have trouble healing a STR tank who is properly using cooldowns then you need to l2p. You are doing something very wrong.
As a healer, if you have a STR tank who is not properly using cooldowns, it's not totally your fault if he dies, even if he says it is. (If you're good, depending on the situation, you can heal through it anyway).
If you have a VIT tank you should tell them why they're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Monk didn't seem to have changed much as compared to some of the others, but I could just be doing it wrong.

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Yeah it didn't change much, NIN didn't change much either. MNK basically just gained means to overcome his weakness when being forced to lose GL3 because of mechanics (Tornado Kick, the ability to stack Chakra and form-shift when there is no target to have a better come-back afterwards). Other than that, he only got 2-3 more oGCDs to weave in his rotation (Forbidden Chakra, Elixir Field, and Shoulder Tackle which was not usable at melee range before). Basically, MNK is now the only job which has always something to do with his GCD even when there is no targets on the field for 10+ seconds.
NIN just got a mean to refresh Huton via a combo, 1 direct damage oGCD, 1 buffing oGCD, and 2 threat-management abilities. The rotation didn't really change, it has even been simplified in terms of Ninjutsu usage and Armor Crush just really takes the place of one Aeolian Edge here and there.
These two jobs didn't get very much more complex at level 60. They just got more tools to keep doing what they were already doing at 50 (and a unique utility for NINs).
However, SMN, DRG, BLM and BRD all got their rotations improved in terms of complexity at some degree. I can understand how players can be struggling when first hitting 60 on these jobs, but now that we're in 3.1 it shouldn't be very hard for them to look at some videos or guides to help them improve.

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Originally Posted by Silenka

As a healer, if you have trouble healing a STR tank who is properly using cooldowns then you need to l2p. You are doing something very wrong.
As a healer, if you have a STR tank who is not properly using cooldowns, it's not totally your fault if he dies, even if he says it is. (If you're good, depending on the situation, you can heal through it anyway).
If you have a VIT tank you should tell them why they're wrong.

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^ pretty much this.

In the long run, if a STR and VIT tank used the same skills in the same order, the total amount of healing they require doesnt really change.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

However, SMN, DRG, BLM and BRD all got their rotations improved in terms of complexity at some degree. I can understand how players can be struggling when first hitting 60 on these jobs, but now that we're in 3.1 it shouldn't be very hard for them to look at some videos or guides to help them improve.

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Whilst I definitely agree with you, there's something else to bear in mind here. Those 4 jobs did get added complexity, but they also got big changes in terms of the feel and fun-factor of the class. YMMV of course, but "added complexity" isnt the only thing at work here.

Every class generally has a focus to their rotation. They all have 5-6 regular buttons they press in either a fixed rotation or a priority system, but they all have something else to manage. Monk is about managing the 3 stacks of GL. Ninja is mostly about Huton uptime and regular Ninjutsu use. Dragoon was mostly about weaving lots of OGCD hits in between an otherwise rather fixed rotation, but now suddenly it also has the management of the BotD buff to contend with, which adds the additional frustration of "oh no my buff fell off due to a weird boss mechanic". This frustration is something Monks had to deal with pre-HW, but DRGs largely didn't.

BLMs got a massive change where instead of just watching their mana and reacting to procs, they now have a very very fixed rotation that harshly punishes them if they're even half a second late hitting that Blizzard 4. Bards didn't really get a complexity change but suddenly they're a caster and can't move as much during their rotations.

Any player forced to play one of those classes would easily adapt and learn the new rotation, but the fundamental feel of those classes has changed massively. The additional rotation skills add in layers of focus and frustration that are far beyond what players of those classes experienced in 2.55, whereas Monk/Ninja by and large got skills that REMOVE frustration by helping their buff upkeep.

I can certainly see (and know a lot of people like this) DRG, BRD and BLM players just leaving the classes in droves not because it's too hard but because it no longer feels like the class they loved playing back in 2.55. It may be that the community buzz about how fun tanks are (particularly all the fell cleave memes at the start of HW) has made these previously dps-centered players at least dabble in tanking.