Just to add, there is absolutely nothing wrong with eating mechanics intentionally if avoiding them loses you a lot of DPS. Perfect example, you get thrown in A4 Into the add room as say a monk, The monster dies just before snap punch could land so you are left with like 4 seconds to reach Alexander's leg to keep your Grease lightning III. Any decent healer in the world would understand that shoulder tackling through the AOE and eating survivable damage to keep GLIII is far more important than looking cool on a parser for taking the "least" DMG.
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12-02-2015, 04:25 AMCritical-Limit
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12-02-2015, 04:42 AMKosmos992kI could easily say the same thing to you and several other posters. Since you think I've ignored something, let's dig in shall we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryel
I haven't skipped over it, player fear of harassment is not central to the discussion in that topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryel
So it is in fact a real fear to some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryel
You've linked multiple sources. OK, there are multiple posts in this topic that discuss the opposite experience, the most exhaustively covered example being DCUO. You can link things, so can I or others. It's no surprise that there are many different experiences, points of view or school's of thought on the matter, it's not a cut and dried topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryel
Yes, I know that. That's why I want to know what it is that people think I'm ignoring. I have never said that harassment concerning performance is not already a problem, on the contrary, I've posted about that very thing before. I'm well aware that there is a small sub-set of players who harass others who do not perform to *their* standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryel
Now, before I continue, I want to make this quite clear, everything I am about to write depends on how any official in-game parser is implemented, and how it functions.
The point I have made, and will continue to make, is that an official parser in the game hands those players a 'stick' with which to beat other players. You can say that they would harass others anyway, and I will agree, they probably would. But by condoning parser use with an official parser, the in-game climate changes to one where it's considered OK to criticize other players performance. Now, if, as I discussed with Kazumac, there was a personal parser, it wouldn't contribute to player harassment, the same jerks would continue to be jerks and the world would turn. If there were an opt-in group parser for pre-made groups, it would reduce any scope for abuse since players voluntarily opt-in to being parsed in a group situation. Once again, jerks will be jerks and the world will turn.
Just in case you're counting, that's two kinds of parser implementation I don't object to, and don't think would cause players to fear harassment more than they already do from that small group of jerks who can't help but yell at others about their performance.
Moving on from that...
Now see, that's a different argument. In the previous paragraph you talked about the threads you linked to and that the thing you claim I ignore is that people already harass others over their performance. Whether or not developers believe that there is a legitimate fear in the community is a very subjective thing, because it depends very much on the game, community and developer, along with the type of game and how parsing is implemented. Developers frequently mis-read the community and what the wants or needs of the community are. This forum itself provides daily documentation of many, many times when developers have thought the community wanted something and the community has proven the developer to be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryel
Looking at your links;
The Real Problem with Parsers
21 pages of the usual to and fro about parsers in a topic started by someone who doesn't want parsers. It rehashes all the arguments, again and again. What is it that you think this shows me other than numerous pro parser people congratulating each other on 'getting it' and replying to others telling them that they do not 'get it'? No offense, but I'm not reading 21 pages of recycled arguments, I have other things to do.
Lindsay talks w/Naoki Yoshida - Final Fantasy XIV PS4 Beta Event
Yoshida says they officially can't allow the use of (3rd party*) parsers, and talks of the PC gaming culture where parsers and other tools are common. Addressing the use of such tools even though they are technically not allowed, he says "we're all adults, take responsibility for what you do'. So, how does this relate to whether or not there is a fear of harassment felt by some players? His comments do not address that at all.
* - edit, I missed saying 3rd party tools.
WoW: Accessibility and Apathy
I think you're intending this to be a demonstration that there is nothing to fear because everyone has parsers in WoW and look how no one says a thing when that guy trolls the raid for a carry. Apathy is real, of course, because in non-end game content, it pretty much takes more time and effort to whine and complain about the player lagging behind and then kick them, than it does to just plow ahead and clear the dungeon. This comes up pretty regularly in parser related discussions with many people vehemently objecting to (quote understandably) what they call 'forced carries'. Apparently those players are not as apathetic as the players in WoW in the linked video. I don't think that this video really does anything to demonstrate that there are not players who fear harassment.
FFXIV Parsing: Is banning it actually preventing arrogance, or fueling it?
Another long topic that rehashes the exact same discussions we have had here. What is it that you are specifically trying to get from this link? I did find one interesting post that I will quote for you here;So, what did I gain from all that reading of the same arguments that have been hashed and rehashed here as well? Nothing. Nothing new was said, it's *exactly* the same points made here over and over and over again. You're saying I ignored some point from this stuff, in all honestly, no I haven't. You simply disagree with my position.Quote:
But you can already determine if you're doing good dps or not. You can parse all you like and Square won't ban you just for parsing. Nobody has ever gotten banned just for parsing and nothing else.
The OP's argument though isn't about parsing itself, it's about what happens when people take the numbers from their parser and start putting them into chat in an attempt to force other players to improve the way they play. Square doesn't want you doing that specifically. They seem to be of the opinion that if you think someone's not good enough to play with you then instead of trying to force them to be, you should just not play with them.
That's what people clamoring for legal parsing are really all about; they make like they just want to be able to play the game properly, thing is, they already CAN play the game properly, what they actually want is to be able to legally arm-twist other people into playing on same level as they do.
That's why Square will never listen to these people. They already turn a blind eye to parsing itself. They just will never give you a thumbs up to use it against other people. And you don't need to either. Find people who play the way you want and play with them.
I don't see why people can't deal with this...
All the points in this discussion have been argued to death before. Repeatedly. You know, I haven't ignored any of the points people make in this topic or others. I don't cite them in my posts much, because I take them as read. If that means you think I ignored some argument or other that you think counters or disproves my opinion, that's your opinion, although you'd be wrong to think that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryel
The single, specific, point I posted (my original post) in this topic about was the fear of harassment that some players feel. I didn't make any statement about other forms of harassment, I didn't say it was felt by a particular percentage of the players, I didn't say whether it was completely rational or not. I simply said that the fear is a real fear felt by some players. You can't deny that.
Saying that this fear has been 'disproven', is objectively a false claim. That's even demonstrated by posts in this topic alone, where players have posted their experience of being harassed. Not only that, but it's strongly argued that there is already harassment of players over their performance (which I agree is true), so there is in fact a reason for people to fear harassment. That's it. If you can't understand and accept that, it's not my problem. If you don't agree that introducing a parser *could* enhance that fear, that's your opinion, I don't share it. -
12-02-2015, 05:04 AMWaliel
To all of you saying how enmity meter is good enough of a deeps meter:
Quite fascinating to quote yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waliel
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12-02-2015, 05:07 AMKazumac
Fear is in the mind, it is real there because people let it grow and fester in themselves. They have lost control of the one thing they can influence, themselves. Harassment is not always controlable but the fear of it is. I'm willing to discuss curbing harassment but handling the fear of it? No, that is handled by the individual.
Btw this all reminds me of the following quote:
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." - Frank Herbert's Dune
Gah I'm such a geek. -
12-02-2015, 05:13 AMzosiaQuote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
We've all addressed your concerns and anecdotal evidence with valid solutions, you just don't like them.
It still had relevent information, you just want to discount it to further your own argumentQuote:
I haven't skipped over it, player fear of harassment is not central to the discussion in that topic.
anecdotal evidenceQuote:
So it is in fact a real fear to some.
anecdotal evidenceQuote:
You've linked multiple sources. OK, there are multiple posts in this topic that discuss the opposite experience, the most exhaustively covered example being DCUO. You can link things, so can I or others. It's no surprise that there are many different experiences, points of view or school's of thought on the matter, it's not a cut and dried topic.
Reportable to GMsQuote:
Yes, I know that. That's why I want to know what it is that people think I'm ignoring. I have never said that harassment concerning performance is not already a problem, on the contrary, I've posted about that very thing before. I'm well aware that there is a small sub-set of players who harass others who do not perform to *their* standard.
Now, before I continue, I want to make this quite clear, everything I am about to write depends on how any official in-game parser is implemented, and how it functions.
The point I have made, and will continue to make, is that an official parser in the game hands those players a 'stick' with which to beat other players. You can say that they would harass others anyway, and I will agree, they probably would. But by condoning parser use with an official parser, the in-game climate changes to one where it's considered OK to criticize other players performance. Now, if, as I discussed with Kazumac, there was a personal parser, it wouldn't contribute to player harassment, the same jerks would continue to be jerks and the world would turn. If there were an opt-in group parser for pre-made groups, it would reduce any scope for abuse since players voluntarily opt-in to being parsed in a group situation. Once again, jerks will be jerks and the world will turn.
People already critique each other's game play without parsers
So, by that point, non-jerks would suddenly be compelled to become jerks because group parsers would compel them to be jerks?
Yes, jerks will be jerks, with or without group parsers. So, whats the point of fighting against parsers when harassment is a reportabel offense?
This already happens, without parsers, and players get temp bans for griefing horrible players. Why would this change with an official parser of ANY kind?Quote:
Just in case you're counting, that's two kinds of parser implementation I don't object to, and don't think would cause players to fear harassment more than they already do from that small group of jerks who can't help but yell at others about their performance.
Hold on, let me help you understand why people keep saying that to you.Quote:
Now see, that's a different argument. In the previous paragraph you talked about the threads you linked to and that the thing you claim I ignore is that people already harass others over their performance. Whether or not developers believe that there is a legitimate fear in the community is a very subjective thing, because it depends very much on the game, community and developer, along with the type of game and how parsing is implemented. Developers frequently mis-read the community and what the wants or needs of the community are. This forum itself provides daily documentation of many, many times when developers have thought the community wanted something and the community has proven the developer to be wrong.
Looking at your links;
There ya goQuote:
The Real Problem with Parsers
21 pages of the usual to and fro about parsers in a topic started by someone who doesn't want parsers. It rehashes all the arguments, again and again. What is it that you think this shows me other than numerous pro parser people congratulating each other on 'getting it' and replying to others telling them that they do not 'get it'? No offense, but I'm not reading 21 pages of recycled arguments, I have other things to do.
It shows you that SE takes parser harassment seriously and that they don't consider parsing a bad thing. That statemnet ties into this entire debate in a multitude of ways.Quote:
Lindsay talks w/Naoki Yoshida - Final Fantasy XIV PS4 Beta Event
Yoshida says they officially can't allow the use of parsers, and talks of the PC gaming culture where parsers and other tools are common. Addressing the use of such tools even though they are technically not allowed, he says "we're all adults, take responsibility for what you do'. So, how does this relate to whether or not there is a fear of harassment felt by some players? His comments do not address that at all.
You keep moving the goal post. People show you some general trends and you go "Nah, there is probably at least one person in the world afraid of harassment." Yeah, of course, I can find at least one player in this game that will fit any convoluted argument. I am sure you can find a player in this game who are afraid of harassment. Until you find us a large population of people who will suffer at the hands of some larger population of jerks that are just waiting to bash people with an official parser, your statements only serve up more anecdotes that paint you as nothing more than a parser contrarian.Quote:
WoW: Accessibility and Apathy
I think you're intending this to be a demonstration that there is nothing to fear because everyone has parsers in WoW and look how no one says a thing when that guy trolls the raid for a carry. Apathy is real, of course, because in non-end game content, it pretty much takes more time and effort to whine and complain about the player lagging behind and then kick them, than it does to just plow ahead and clear the dungeon. This comes up pretty regularly in parser related discussions with many people vehemently objecting to (quote understandably) what they call 'forced carries'. Apparently those players are not as apathetic as the players in WoW in the linked video. I don't think that this video really does anything to demonstrate that there are not players who fear harassment.
The point you highlighted just shows your despicable bias in this situation. The OP is a real and tangible effect of not having an official parser, yet the only thing you quote from any of those links is a post that paints in broad strokes ("this is why everyone wants a parser") and then insinuates that it's for a negative reason (to force other people to play some way). Yeah, keep touting your hypothetical acedotes while people like the OP suffer because of some poor hypothetical victim that cannot manage to use the report button.Quote:
FFXIV Parsing: Is banning it actually preventing arrogance, or fueling it?
Another long topic that rehashes the exact same discussions we have had here. What is it that you are specifically trying to get from this link? I did find one interesting post that I will quote for you here;
Nope, you ignored stuff by your own admission, see above.Quote:
So, what did I gain from all that reading of the same arguments that have been hashed and rehashed here as well? Nothing. Nothing new was said, it's *exactly* the same points made here over and over and over again. You're saying I ignored some point from this stuff, in all honestly, no I haven't. You simply disagree with my position.
Yes, you have.Quote:
All the points in this discussion have been argued to death before. Repeatedly. You know, I haven't ignored any of the points people make in this topic or others. I don't cite them in my posts much, because I take them as read. If that means you think I ignored some argument or other that you think counters or disproves my opinion, that's your opinion, although you'd be wrong to think that.
By your own refutations of points in this thread: its! wait for it! wait!Quote:
The single, specific, point I posted (my original post) in this topic about was the fear of harassment that some players feel. I didn't make any statement about other forms of harassment, I didn't say it was felt by a particular percentage of the players, I didn't say whether it was completely rational or not. I simply said that the fear is a real fear felt by some players. You can't deny that.
Just some anecdote to prop up your argument.
That's what GMs are forQuote:
Saying that this fear has been 'disproven', is objectively a false claim. That's even demonstrated by posts in this topic alone, where players have posted their experience of being harassed. Not only that, but it's strongly argued that there is already harassment of players over their performance (which I agree is true), so there is in fact a reason for people to fear harassment. That's it. If you can't understand and accept that, it's not my problem. If you don't agree that introducing a parser *could* enhance that fear, that's your opinion, I don't share it.
Also, anecdotal evidence -
12-02-2015, 05:14 AMAzazua_azuraI had a few several 60s, I had to start over due to needing a new psn account over cyber stalking from an ex-bf. And Been playing ff14 since 1.0, ff11 for 2004-2011 DCUO since beta on and off (it has a build in parser) been gaming for 27 years, and played 30+ mmorpg WoW being one of them for 2 years. I asks questions and don't shelter myself from the community. So, gonna take my character at face value or actually contribute like a grown up?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcyEvil
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12-02-2015, 05:54 AMKosmos992kFears are based in realities. It's an emotional response to perceived threats, we're human beings, we can't help but feel things. Some will fear, some will laugh, some will not care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazumac
I'll throw in a little geekiness with this from Yoda - “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazumac
Clearly we all have to moderate how we feel about things, and controlling fears is something that humans must do throughout life. Unfortunately, simply pointing out that fears exist in the mind as an emotional response does nothing to allay those fears. If it did, none of us would be scared of anything.
To complete the geek-out here's another quote, this one I had to look for;
"The purpose is to experience fear, fear in the face of certain death, to accept that fear, and maintain control of oneself and one's crew. This is the quality expected in every Starfleet captain." - Spock speaking to Capt. James T Kirk about the point of a no win scenario - the so-called "Kobayashi Maru" test. -
12-02-2015, 05:55 AMStupiduglytaruI really wish people like yourself would stop speaking for people like myself. edit incQuote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
I'm a PS4 player, when I first started this game I knew nothing of parsers. My first FC was pretty much a safezone free company, this is what I came to realise as I progressed further and further into the game. There were people there who were quite frankly terrible players, but everyone was clapped, cheered and told don't worry your get the hang of it!
While this is all nice, I soon realised if I ever wanted to venture into the world of primal extremes and coil I would have to go about this through the PF. As I practiced, I soon became aware of parsers. It was not till however during a T9 attempt to clear run that I witnessed someone use a parser to call someone a bad player, a fellow fc member. His exact words were, "you did 200dps that run, I really think you need to take a look at your rotation. That's very poor dps for a <insert ilevel brd>.
It was here, where I started asking for my dps each run and once I had finally got into final coil the fear set in.
I was very pre emptive to join clear parties after learning all the mechanics, and infact just beating the T10 for the first time didn't take that fear away. I was worried that if I joined a farm party my dps wouldn't be enough or acceptable to them, soo after a few days I just took the plunge and went in.
Each run, I would state I'm a PS4 player and I have no access to dps figures, if a PC would be so kind to either tell me after this run what I did or during that would be great. VIRTUALLY every run, another player would then reply with could I also know my dps too please?
Not once have I been abused by another player because of my dps, I still ask to this day.
I do have friends that I can use for finding my dps out on dummies but this isn't enough, I can't see my dps in a raid all I know is my dummy dps is pretty sweet.
The only way to beat the fear is to jump right in, there's a whole community out there that has no access to a parser at all (ps3, ps4) we can't just download something we rely on PC players to tell us how we are doing.
There are plenty of PC players who actively help out on rotations and teach players how to play a job.
If the console community had the same tools, we could do the same. -
12-02-2015, 06:13 AMKosmos992kWhoever said I was speaking for you? I was speaking for people I know in-game and in-real life, who fear harassment. Is that OK with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru
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12-02-2015, 06:16 AMLaylaTsarraYou were expressing my feelings and I'm sure I'm not alone. I give you a lot of credit to take the time to eloquently express yours. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k