RIP Ninja

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I'm fine with there being a class with no positionals for variety, but I don't think that class should ever have been NIN.

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Well, if it didn't have mudras sure.

The problem with positionals on Nin is you're either moving during your GCD or you're losing DPS to moving. Not much, but it's there. With Ninja every 8 (with no skill speed buffs/alterations) GCDs you have a choice: Delay damage to move, skip moving, or skip mudras. Putting in 2-3 mudras uses your entire GCD on inputting 3 or 4 oGCD commands using up your entire 'movement time' space. This can be gotten around with controllers or gaming mice, but I don't think MMOs, or specific classes, should be designed around the idea that you need peripherals just to get your commands in on time, but rather should be designed around a standard keyboard and mouse set up.

And, for the record, I don't even really like Nin, and much prefer playing as monk (and honestly don't even care if Ninja ends up awful). It's just an issue I see where anyone who's not using a controller or doesn't have extra buttons on their mouse for mudras is going to have a very difficult time getting into position to hit flank/back while firing off mudras. With no other class is this an issue, as there's plenty of time to tap one button and tap E/Q to sidestep around the butt corner during a single GCD, even with lots of skill speed up. But there's not enough time to tap 3 buttons and E/Q in a single GCD. Honestly, most of the time, even hitting the three clips into your next attack's timing by a fraction of a second with animation delay and what have you.

However, with Ninja designed as they are as the only class that needs to mash half a rotation into a 2.5 (or less) second window, I think they entirely should be the one class that doesn't require positionals, as they're the only class that gets the number of oGCD button presses increased to 4 or 5 (depending on which ninjitsu you're using) by having them.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

That's why I think positionals are a good idea.

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The problem with positionals on the Ninja has more to do with the Mudra system being high-demand. Having to move around while also running Mudras is hard in and of itself, but reasonably doable.

Having to move around and then confirm attack position and then maintain the attack starts to border on the realm of insanity as far as class mechanics are concerned. It's a level of tedious that goes beyond that of the Monk to keep track of everything at that point, and the class was never designed with this concept in mind.

I agree that the Ninja having a move speed buff but being the least required to be mobile is a bit of a contradiction, but the ninjutsu system doesn't play nicely with movement to begin with. However, I don't disagree with this because of positionals, but rather because the class didn't have them to begin with, and the devs pulled a bait and switch on us.

I simply can't agree that positionals + Mudra is too much.

I can understand the whole peripheral argument when it comes to button bloat, but not in regards to this.
You can easily set key binds to accommodate the Mudras to use in combinations with movement.
You should have to anyway, since you should be able to cast Mudras on the move with no delay. If you can't, you're already losing dps.
This is just a systemized and more challenging version of that.

I find Monk too easy outside of positionals, and NIN too easy outside of Mudras.
I'm not a perfect player or the most skilled, but I like challenging rotations and fitting them into fighting scenarios.
I've even tested working with Mudras while pretending there's fixed positionals, it's really not that bad.

The more there is to work with, the higher the skill cap.
That means there's more to work towards and that's a good thing imo.
I agree the Devs shouldn't have pulled a bait and switch.
But that's because I think they should've added positionals to begin with.

Ninjas multi-task a few things. It's a bit of a theme.
They're like a bag of tricks.
They have the oGCD activity similar to DRG and Bard, as well as similar utility as a BRD and the combo system (as opposed to stance) like DRG (and well, PLD + WAR, but I'm talking about dps).
They have the attack speed of a MNK, so now they're adding positionals too.

Maybe that's where some people draw the line, but I think it's a good addition and adds challenging gameplay in a good way.
Again, you should already be mastering how to move with ninjutsu anyway, this simply adds it rotationally.
So I don't think it's a bad fit. Actually, I think it's a perfect fit for the Job that has faster movement and should be about precision striking (not just wailing at the back).

Worst case scenario if a player sticks with NIN but can't keep up with moving with Mudra, they'll do less dps delaying the Mudra.
That shouldn't hold back a great design.
It's not like they're adding button bloat and overwhelming mechanics, since it's working with things you already have (the movement buttons).

for you is normal to ask more than other jobs for the ninja, but at the same time we must keep the dps in check.
just for the weapon skill (not the one OGCD) we get 7 input needed, for the mudra you add 4 more input. that lead you to a minimum of 11 button of your keyboard that must be configured for be used correctly. other point the trouble of the mudra is the fact that in 2 second, generally, we need to do the 4 input. the system is not friendly remember? any mistake will be punish badly, leading you to loose your ninjutsu.

for the weaponskill is not a trouble, the animation are long and you have time before your next action, then you have time to move, there, you will need to move and do the 4 input in 2 second at best. yeah, people will be able to do it, but do the system will be used correctly? do the system is smooth with something like this?

it's no to both. instead to develop the ninjutsu and add a new mechanic, they did decide to forget this point and go with positional. i'm tired to see people come here say it will be doable then we can't complain. the point it's the level of skill needed for make this a system viable. no, it's more, the skill needed for make this viable for high level content.

you talk about a bit of loose of dps, when in high level content it can often lead to a wipe. do the static will be accomodate and accept ninja player, when they will not always have the skill needed for use this system?
the answer is no! they will not!!

soo far people are pointing the fact that positional is doable, but will recquire a level skill extremely high for be able to use this system as intended. since mudra are not a friendly system, the lag affect it, any error affect it... how many people will simply scrap ninjutsu because they need to get in position and it will recquire too much?

because the ninja use 2 different mechanic, you do have the combo systeme from weaponskill on one side, using a mix of skill with 2-2.5 gcd and out GCD skill.
and on other hand you do have the ninjutsu, that use the mudra systeme, asking to enter combinaison, in order, in short time for get a skill from it. this two system collide already, often you must choose what you will need to do. but now they want to add positional into this. it's crazy... it was recquiring a lot of skill and training for be able to use this correctly. but now this will be far more... i doubt most of the player will have the skill or the will to face this sort of tedious system!

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

soo far people are pointing the fact that positional is doable, but will recquire a level skill extremely high for be able to use this system as intended. since mudra are not a friendly system, the lag affect it, any error affect it... how many people will simply scrap ninjutsu because they need to get in position and it will recquire too much?

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This is absurd! It will not require an extremely high skill level to be do what we do now with a few positionals mixed in!

There is no need to scrap doing a mudra combo to get into position. If someone does then they are playing horribly as a NIN fundamentally, you can move freely now and perform ninjutsu. The lag might cause you issues, but the moving itself certainly doesn't. I can move from flank to back to flank to back right now without care or worries while going through my rotation. The only difference positionals will now add is that now instead of moving to the flank because I feel like it, I will now move to the flank for a positional attack (assuming we get flank positionals).

I'm not fond of the idea of positionals because it doesn't add anything meaningful to the job, but the addition of positionals isn't going to increase the job difficulty.

we do have one positional that implie a outgcd skill.... that is launched outside the ninjutsu, it's not hard to use it. it will be quite different if all our weaponskill recquire positional. so far, we play behind the target most of the time and don't really move from it.(exept against dragon and them tail swipe) but if the whole combo system recquire positional, the skill needed for use it correctly with the ninjutsu will not be the same. you will need to keep in mind, your positon, your combo and where it will lead you next step plus ninjutsu combinaison. (i will be nice and ignore the mudra lag)
i will not talk of the case where the monster move at the last second and we loose the boost from the position that will happend quite often (not every boss are static) i can't wait to see the medium player simply abandon ninja, even good player on the long run will be bored to have to do this all the time. when dragoon and monk don't have this.

anyway, the reason of why you and i think that positional is bad are both right, for you is not a trouble, for other people is a trouble.
positional are not wanted for 3 reason so far:
- people did choose the jobs because it was free of positional and did want to play a melee dps different of monk and dragoon.
- like you say it will add nothing to the jobs. (we are both feeling the same about this, believe me, i feel soo much angry about them inability to produce new mechanic for the ninja when all the jobs evolve)
- finally, it will recquire more skill than monk and dragoon to play it correctly and pull the adequate dps needed for high level content.

this three reason are valid, i have never said your was wrong, you are right, this add nothing to the ninja.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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So you rationale is to take it to the extreme that all our skills will have positionals? Bayohne said for "some" for all we know that could be 1 positional added to our old skills and 1 or 2 for the new skills. And those new skills could be of similar usage to TA. Even a handful of positionals wouldn't be bad.

I told you in another thread, saying that we will now require more skill than a MNK or DRG is ridiculous and unfounded.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I told you in another thread, saying that we will now require more skill than a MNK or DRG is ridiculous and unfounded.

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But how else are we going to get 4 weeks of doom and gloom!?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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You are assuming Ninja is going to be like a Monk, when you should instead look at what they did with Dragoon. Right now we only have two positionals, with the possibility of another one coming in Heavensward. Ninja will most likely be something similar, not like Monk where positionals are everything.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

So you rationale is to take it to the extreme that all our skills will have positionals? Bayohne said for "some" for all we know that could be 1 positional added to our old skills and 1 or 2 for the new skills. And those new skills could be of similar usage to TA. Even a handful of positionals wouldn't be bad.

I told you in another thread, saying that we will now require more skill than a MNK or DRG is ridiculous and unfounded.

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maybe you are right, but at the same time, maybe i'm the one right, because that was not what did said yoshida, he did said that ninja must attack from flank and rear, because that the tank role to attack from front. then instead to continue this debat, let's wait 3-4 week we will have the answer, but i'm not naive to the point to think that after this sentence of yoshida only a few skill will have positional.

check the live letter: http://www.twitch.tv/finalfantasyxiv...683?t=2h12m14s