Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by Shibi

Absolutely.

The best save SE can do now, is to do a Haurchefant on Poochie. Write in a way to kill the character off. Of course, she doesn't deserve sympathy, so I am thinking more like that M-Tribe neko with the bombs? Something comical to explode her?

I think we would cheer on that event, especially if we got a "Windup Poochie Rug" minion as a quest reward after she bit the big one.

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I think they can just keep her in Tuliyollal doing Vow things with Koana. She's Busy.

The more I think of it too, they really did try for a Zidane and Kuja idea with Wuk Lamat and Zoraal Ja, which excites the hell out of me as a IX fan. But unfortunately without the nuance that makes those two characters so popular and memorable so the comparison ended up too heavy handed and flat.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

My posts aren't really about people giving multifaceted feedback, it's moreso a reaction to this idea that one singular character ruins the story and that writing will automatically be good if she isn't around. Imo, this feedback is not only less effective but pretty harmful, because it gives the impression that if Wuk Lamat disappeared from DT, or disappears in the future, everything will automatically be ok. I've already seen people doing this with respect to the Arcadion or even within the MSQ itself when she's not around. People are welcome to submit that feedback and feel that way, but I how I feel is that there's a lot more work to be done beyond that. The writing problems with Wuk Lamat are pervasive and extend to characters we know already and love already. I don't think it has to do with any characters, including Wuk Lamat, I think it has to do with how they are used and how they are written.

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There's a few wonderful threads out there that go into the other issues, about character writing and other problems on the story. Instead of coming to complain about people complaining about a character, in a thread for complaining about the character, maybe post and give more attention to those threads instead? I agree, the problem goes much beyond Wuk Lamat. BUT Wuk Lamat IS one of the problems - not only the way she is written as a character, but how much she is there, her purpose, the consequences of her actions and what happens around her during the story. Maybe not the only problem, as the title of the post implies, but there's better ways for you to get your point across.

Saying "Wuk Lamat isn't real" isn't helping your point and also has nothing to do with what you just said.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

The critique of her smothering everything even comes from the side of those who liked the story and the content creators are also pretty loud about that and the Japanese even louder because being so personal so fast with the nickname is not liked there if a few comments are any indication.

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That bugged me even as a Westerner. I still call the person who I fled from Ul'Dah with after being accused of regicide and who joined me fighting at the end of the universe by his full name. Even after everything we've been through together. I am NOT going to just start using someone's nickname I just met.

Yeah it was too much, too fast. If it was a title thing, with 'Wuk Lamat' being the local equivalent of 'Miss Doe' and Lamat'yi being informal/first name, that'd be fine.

But it's a family nickname. We don't refer to anyone that intimately. Raha's the closest, but the man at least narratively tried to earn that intimacy, what with working over a century solo to try and help us.

They saw the Yda-shaped hole in the party and tried to fill it with Wuk Lamat. It might have worked if she gave nicknames to everyone, if she was pulled out of the spotlight for other characters to properly interact with her.

Instead Naruto learned that apparently Hypnotoad is one of his Summons.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

All I know is that given the feedback over the years, we still got DT. So, obviously there's more nuanced discussion to be had. And that is what I am pushing for. The problems here extend well beyond Wuk Lamat. Wuk Lamat is just the most obvious one because she's so persistent in the story.

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We didn‘t get DT because of feedback or despite it.
We got it because they wanted to try something new. I linked an article to that interview somewhere in one of those threads.

Wuk Lamat was the result of that.

If you want the other thing.
We did get a very spiced up fight design with DT.
That was not because people went full in detail what they wanted but because they said „the dungeons suck so much we fall asleep“.

I know where you are coming from. These more nuanced discussions are in another thread though.
This one here is on Wuk Lamat and for me she had the biggest impact on the story in a negative sense.

In my mind, Wuk Lamat is as salt. There is nothing inherently wrong with it, and it is full of potential to be a good thing. When applied in the correct, modest, amounts, salt enhances the flavor of most meals it is added to.

But if the lid comes off and the entire contents of the salt shaker are dumped all over the food in front of me, leaving every bit of it to have a crust of salt all over it, then that meal is going to taste terrible and be very unhealthy to eat. If I am then forced regardless to consume this ruined meal before I am allowed to have any dessert (yes, that is a metaphor for having to do the msq before you can unlock the rest of the content) then of course over such a bad meal experience I am going to feel some resentment to the establishment and the treatment I was given, as well as absolutely not wanting anything to do with salt for a while because I am now badly in need of a palate cleanser.

But I still would not say salt is a bad thing. Just that having far too much of it is.

I feel the same way about Wuk Lamat. I don't dislike the character. I do dislike how much Wuk Lamat there was applied to absolutely everything.

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Originally Posted by Midare

I swear, I was sighing over that too.
I'm trying to do aether current side quests, and they go "Ah you were with Poochie, weren't you?"
I'm a lalafell, literally something that is not common in Tural, and that's my claim to fame, being Poochie's accesory?

Please SE, give me the ability to punch the shins of friendly NPCs ... please.

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Actually one of the aether current quests in Urqopacha is exactly what you're asking for, it's a Giant going like "i have never seen one like you, demonstrate how such a tiny baby man is capable of laying low the valigarmanda". I'm not sure what the quest entails exactly for other races but this part is definitely Lalabro exclusive dialogue, which for the record I appreciate whenever a quest acknowledges my race or job, it's a small detail but it makes it feel more immersive and generally is just nice flavor

Though I agree it's kind of weird how many times the only thing I'm known for is being Poochie's underling, like surely I did something else of note during my adventure? Or even just having someone else I'm associated with, like you'd think for example the Pelupelu would think more of me being the guy who helped out Mablu (someone who is established and likely respected in the community) than Poochie (someone who was there for like half an hour out of obligation).
Also somewhat related trivia, 6/9 of the MSQ duties' descriptions go out of their way to specifically mention Wuk Lamat's relevance to the duty; the only ones that don't are the lv100 dungeon, lv99 trial, and lv100 trial.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

It would not be okay Ish. It would be the lowest rated and worst expansion as it is currently.

In my personal opinion, it's also cringe the way people talk about the character as though she is real. She is not. She is a poorly written character amongst many other poorly written things in DT. Maybe that's what people are trying to say in some of the rants I've seen.

I'm also not calling for anyone to stop talking. I am telling you that devs tend to interpret feedback a certain way and if what they garner from the expansion is "I hate Wuk Lamat" then we just won't see her again. The problem is, the odds you would see her again anyway are 0.005%. You can still continue to hate on a character that is not real, be my guest.

I would also note you're not even being objective. When you say "Wuk Lamat is the most inconsistent." Based on what metric? Every Scion we know acts out of character at some point and even new ones, like Bakool ja ja become unrecognizable once converted from cartoonist evil to good.

You are positing things like "if wuk lamat didn't exist, Krile's story would be well written." That is a contradiction considering this writer wrote this MSQ. They wrote Wuk Lamat. A lot of these arguments are copium.

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Okay-ish doesn't mean that it would be good. It could still be the worst expansion so far, but at least it would be better than what we got. Not having the most annoying and worst written (and with the worst VA, if you play in English) character on screen 99% of the time would definitely help in achieving that.

I don't know what makes you think that people are talking about the character as if it was a real person. Criticising her in particular doesn't mean that anyone sees her as a real person, and I don't even know what made you think that way. Maybe some people's jokes about her? Anyway, this has already been explained by other posters.

And you are not calling for anyone to stop talking, but you were saying that their criticism is "whining" and "having real life issues with the game". You're basically disregarding other people's opinions by making stuff up, instead of reading what they are actually saying.

Moreover, yes, she's the most inconsistent on this expansion. Not because of how she acts (she is who she is), but due to her several insane power increases out of the blue that make no sense just for the sake to keep making her the focus of the story (like being able to beat Bakool Ja Ja, or fight as equals with improved Zoraal Ja), up to the point of even forcing her into the last trial over Krile or G'raha, which were also there. The only other character that did anything similar was Zoraal Ja, and it was properly explained why (30 years plus alexandrian tech). And since you mentioned it, even Bakool Ja Ja's original attitude is explained, and he doesn't change all of a sudden and without thinking twice about it (hint: his mother, the only one that apparently gave him some love and didn't treat him like a tool, made him listen to find another path to end with the deaths of their children).

Lastly, nowhere did I say that if Wuk Lamat didn't exist Krile's story would be well written. I said that there would had been more time to properly develop that story, among others, which is one of the things that make the writing of the expansion this bad. I mentioned this even when I said "I'm not saying that that would had guaranteed that the story was good, but that not being there DID make the story worse." It's curious that you, being the one asking others to not criticise Wuk Lamat so much and instead focus on the writing as a whole, missed this. I think that you insist so much on your thought that people criticise the character, that you miss why we're talking about her. This is not just about her being badly written, but about the fact that she being so badly written (which is not limited to her a character, but also to how she's shoehorned everywhere) ended up affecting other parts of the story.

I don't think Wuk Lamat is a bad character, I think she's just the victim of bad writing. I feel like they had too much on their plate for this expansion, wanted to try something new, and didn't have time to do good, proper revisions. Just like how the first benchmark was in absolute shambles when it came out I imagine it was a similar situation when releasing Dawntrail, except they probably won't do anything about it now except try to improve in the future. (shrug)

Having an adult visual novel writer as one of the mains did not help matters.