Tank healing is to high

Bards and Paladins aren't an invention of DnD fantasy to begin with lol they're just historical people or old fiction/ myths turned into a fantasy trope.
Paladins in fiction originated in the Middle Ages.
DnD gets credited for way too much imo, it's basically a big compilation of primarily European history, mythology and folklore.

DRK here

Crying in the corner while everyone else enjoys their overpowered new toys this expansion...

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Originally Posted by Zordrage

DRK here

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Idc about any missing sustain, big numbers go brrrr

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

Idc about any missing sustain, big numbers go brrrr

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Except, GNB now goes more brrrr than DRK anyways, despite having greater mitigation and sustain?

I can't express how tired I am of people brushing off DRK complaints because "badass DPS". There's a technical term for feeling like an absolute king dealing those huge numbers. It's called placebo. The difference is so small you aren't going to actually notice it in the moment, it slowly creeps up to something somewhat noticeable minute by minute. That PLD co-tank might even be out-DPSing you too without you knowing any better.

Sorry but only way a Dark Knight is outdpsed by a Paladin, is gear discrepancy, Dark Knight died or the Dark Knight is playing like trash.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Sorry but only way a Dark Knight is outdpsed by a Paladin, is gear discrepancy, Dark Knight died or the Dark Knight is playing like trash.

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Yeah. You can easily manage to out-do a couple percent difference in a number of situations.

You aren't doing rad awesome mega-damage as a DRK. You are barely outdoing PLD and WAR, typically. If you feel otherwise you actually like a graph on a website you probably can't read properly more than you like DRK.

I agree it’s a little too high, and personally I don’t mind that but if this is the way they want to go they need to give us more damage/damage abilities.

If SE isn't gonna let DRK have as much self healing, they should let us do as much damage as phys ranged.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

If SE isn't gonna let DRK have as much self healing, they should let us do as much damage as phys ranged.

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Be careful what you wish for. They might just drop phys ranged down to DRK levels instead of the other way around.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

If SE isn't gonna let DRK have as much self healing, they should let us do as much damage as phys ranged.

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Ideally if as a Tank you have shit defenses and no sustain your damage has to be strong. GNB has comparable DPS to DRK and amazing defenses in addition to not blowing a DPS resource on a defensive.

But since PvE is designed around having classes as balanced and homogenized as possible you run into a very big problem.

Living Dead has potential to be an amazing sustain option but is only active during the WD phase and gets shut off after you top yourself off or with healer assistance. Beyond that you only have Souleater. Abyssal Drain is locked to a 60 CD and shared with C&S so restrictive. PLD/GNB/WAR all have amazing sustain and defenses. Especially WAR.

DRK at some point will need it's defensives re-evaluated. Especially with how limited Dark Mind is as a whole. And the skill acquisition of certain skills such as Dark Missionary.

It's very clear that the devs are very reliant on TBN but has aged poorly due to the TBN competitors from other Tanks.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Ideally if as a Tank you have shit defenses and no sustain your damage has to be strong. GNB has comparable DPS to DRK and amazing defenses in addition to not blowing a DPS resource on a defensive.

But since PvE is designed around having classes as balanced and homogenized as possible you run into a very big problem.

Living Dead has potential to be an amazing sustain option but is only active during the WD phase and gets shut off after you top yourself off or with healer assistance. Beyond that you only have Souleater. Abyssal Drain is locked to a 60 CD and shared with C&S so restrictive. PLD/GNB/WAR all have amazing sustain and defenses. Especially WAR.

DRK at some point will need it's defensives re-evaluated. Especially with how limited Dark Mind is as a whole. And the skill acquisition of certain skills such as Dark Missionary.

It's very clear that the devs are very reliant on TBN but has aged poorly due to the TBN competitors from other Tanks.

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but drk outside of opener burst phase, have a very simple rotation, dark art is up pretty much all the time, and theres no restriction to use ogcd right away while gnb has to do their gnashing fang every 30second and every single continuation after each gcd, now with burst strike... if u saying aurora and hoc healing are too strong, how strong, aurora proc about 6-7 times over 18seconds for what, 3k heal each, hoc proc for about 20k and p4s aa deals about 16k per hit, p3s hit about 12-16k per hit... the devs ain't balancing the jobs based on some 4man dungeon runs... even war seem busted in dungeon because of multiple hits healing from bloodwheeting.. mean nothing in high end content,

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Originally Posted by AprilHanabira

but drk outside of opener burst phase, have a very simple rotation, dark art is up pretty much all the time, and theres no restriction to use ogcd right away while gnb has to do their gnashing fang every 30second and every single continuation after each gcd, now with burst strike... if u saying aurora and hoc healing are too strong, how strong, aurora proc about 6-7 times over 18seconds for what, 3k heal each, hoc proc for about 20k and p4s aa deals about 16k per hit, p3s hit about 12-16k per hit...

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Dark Arts is not up "all the time" (perhaps you meant Darkside?) and Aurora's 1200p healing is still 1200p more than what DRK has outside of AoE (and thus Abyssal Drain), while Solid Barrel's heal is likewise 33.3% stronger a sustain tool than Souleater, so long as the shield is consumed before the next combo.

Incoming damage is the same for all tanks but DRK (which takes more in practice due to the relative underperformance of TBN+Oblation against higher damage totals over the given 8 seconds covered by one's on-demand and tends to mitigate slightly less damage per minute in similarly damage-intense situations), so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up.

That Warrior may exist as an outlier in terms of sustain, moreover, does not make DRK's lack of sustain any less an issue. (Nor is Bloodwhetting's ability to get multiple heals per GCD based on target count relevant to 8-man content, to which virtually all serious encounters are limited.)

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

It's very clear that the devs are very reliant on TBN but has aged poorly due to the TBN competitors from other Tanks.

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That's a bit like saying that Heart of Stone has aged poorly due to Heart of Corundum. The level 70 skill is not the reason for the level 82+ problem. The level 82 skill (Oblation) is. That particular lv82+ mitigation issue really is as simple as just buffing the lv82 skill. Buff Oblation. Done.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's a bit like saying that Heart of Stone has aged poorly due to Heart of Corundum. The level 70 skill is not the reason for the level 82+ problem. The level 82 skill (Oblation) is. That particular lv82+ mitigation issue really is as simple as just buffing the lv82 skill. Buff Oblation. Done.

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Heart of Stone actually has aged greatly because it was upgraded to Heart of Corundum. Absurd statement on your part.

The issue you have with TBN at 82 onwards is the lack of engagement with using defensives at the right time given the other 3 Tanks have 4 seconds of effectively increased DR when they pop their main Defensive in HoC/HS/BW.

Which these Tanks have additional DR, damage shields, regens, GCD heals, excog effects.

Meanwhile the only addition with Oblation is a flat 10% DR and that's it. TBN hasn't aged in any way and is effectively worse given it costs MP while the other skills cost effectively nothing. PLD you could argue about with gauge but that's completely passive acquisition on it's own and isn't tied to MP in any way.

And I must state that damage shields and damage reduction are 2 separate entities and interact differently.

At best TBN is just temporary HP that you lose after about 5 seconds.

The lvl82 competitors have a big advantage in being pure mitigation and self healing while DRK offers none of that and wants you to take a lot of damage so you can use Dragoon's Heavy Thrust for free and be MP neutral.

TLDR buff Oblation to 20% DR and it would probably be fine. Although I do think at this stage TBN should just be free just like the other skills or you buff TBN to not cost MP and put the 15%-20% DR on one skill.

And if it has to cost MP you remove the CD completely so it can be used on demand.

Having a Tank that operates defensively specifically on Damage Shields would be some form of identity.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Heart of Stone actually has aged greatly because it was upgraded to Heart of Corundum. Absurd statement on your part.

The issue you have with TBN at 82 onwards is the lack of engagement with using defensives at the right time given the other 3 Tanks have 4 seconds of effectively increased DR when they pop their main Defensive in HoC/HS/BW.

Which these Tanks have additional DR, damage shields, regens, GCD heals, excog effects.

Meanwhile the only addition with Oblation is a flat 10% DR and that's it. TBN hasn't aged in any way and is effectively worse given it costs MP while the other skills cost effectively nothing. PLD you could argue about with gauge but that's completely passive acquisition on it's own and isn't tied to MP in any way.

And I must state that damage shields and damage reduction are 2 separate entities and interact differently.

At best TBN is just temporary HP that you lose after about 5 seconds.

The lvl82 competitors have a big advantage in being pure mitigation and self healing while DRK offers none of that and wants you to take a lot of damage so you can use Dragoon's Heavy Thrust for free and be MP neutral.

TLDR buff Oblation to 20% DR and it would probably be fine. Although I do think at this stage TBN should just be free just like the other skills or you buff TBN to not cost MP and put the 15%-20% DR on one skill.

And if it has to cost MP you remove the CD completely so it can be used on demand.

Having a Tank that operates defensively specifically on Damage Shields would be some form of identity.

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I mean I think one way to balance that is to make other defenses have gauge costs associated with them like how TBN has its 3k MP cost. It would makes sense to me if Heat of Corundum cost a cartridge or say each of the WAR's heals (Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Nascent Flash) having a gauge requirement. I'd also go as far to suggest something like Bloodwhetting consumes your whole gauge and the potency/duration is determined by the amount consumed with you getting the current iteration of the ability by consuming 100 gauge.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

I mean I think one way to balance that is to make other defenses have gauge costs associated with them like how TBN has its 3k MP cost. It would makes sense to me if Heat of Corundum cost a cartridge or say each of the WAR's heals (Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Nascent Flash) having a gauge requirement. I'd also go as far to suggest something like Bloodwhetting consumes your whole gauge and the potency/duration is determined by the amount consumed with you getting the current iteration of the ability by consuming 100 gauge.

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I'd be all for some actual gauge management given how simple things are getting.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Heart of Stone actually has aged greatly because it was upgraded to Heart of Corundum. Absurd statement on your part.

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And where was TBN's upgrade? You're saying the level 70 skill has "aged poorly" because it's not a.... level 82 skill (a la Bloodwhetting, Holy Shelltron, or Heart of Corundum).

That is an absurd statement.

What you need to look at instead is specifically Oblation's value versus the difference between Heart of Stone and Heart of Corundom, Shelltron and Holy Shelltron, or Raw Intuition and Bloodwhetting.

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The issue you have with TBN at 82 onwards...

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...is that people can't stop conflating things. It's still the same skill you had at level 70. No more, no less. Camouflage was not nerfed by staying at its present power across 84 levels; neither has TBN's by remaining the same for 20.

That DRK's lv82 addition (Oblation) is weaker than, say, Paladin's lv82 addition (Knight's Benediction and Knight's Resolve) is a separate (and the only) mitigation issue. The four jobs' mitigation were pretty balanced before. Giving three of them stronger bonuses, then, than the last does put that last one behind, all without having to retroactively nerf its pre-lv82 kit upon its reaching lv82. Shocking, I know.



As for TBN itself...

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TBN should just be free

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This can only result in either of two things: Reduced flexibility (higher CD) and reduced gameplay interaction (removed DA) as you remove its more negotiable and knowledge-rewarding constraint, or DRK's damage must now be balanced around popping a TBN every 15 to 25 seconds for a free 1104 to 1840 extra potency per minute. Neither outcome is good.

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And if it has to cost MP you remove the CD completely so it can be used on demand.

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Please tell me you understand how much cheese that could apply to, say, DSR, when two DRKs could thereby simultaneously TBN every non-tank.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And where was TBN's upgrade? It's still the same skill you had at level 70. No more, no less.

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You just explained why it aged poorly. If you can't process that then case closed.

As for TBN if it can be used to cheese things I have no problem with this given Warrior's ability to cheese dungeons and clear a multitude of fights without a healer.

But hey go ahead and get frustrated at my expense.

It's been a shitshow for DRK ever since Shadowbringers and it all started this death spiral in Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

You just explained why it aged poorly. If you can't process that then case closed.

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No, I explained why it has nothing to do with the problem at hand.

Compare DRK's Endwalker addition to the others' Endwalker additions (instead of pretending that prior defensive skills suddenly got weaker after X level). That's it. It's not complicated.

Here are the tanks and what they get at level 82 for their new defensive:

• DRK - Oblation - 10% miti for 10 seconds on a 60s recharge (2 charges). [This, by the way, is simply not as powerful as any of the options below. Which has nothing to do with TBN, Dark Mind, Abyssal Drain, Camouflage, Aurora, Heart of Stone, Thrill of Battle, Raw Intuition, Nascent Flash, Equilibrium, or Shelltron.]
  
  
• PLD - Knight's Benediction, Knight's Resolve - 1000cp HoT, 15% mitigation for 4 seconds. Available per 22.4 seconds.
  
  
• WAR - Stem the Tide, Stem the Flow - 400cp shield, 15% mitigation for 4 seconds. Available per 25 seconds.
  
  
• GNB - Catharsis of Corundum, Clarity of Corundum - 900cp Excog, 15% mitigation for 4 seconds. Available per 25 seconds.

You don't fix an imbalance that only occurs upon reaching level 82 by going back and "fixing" (homogenizing and/or overbuffing) an expansions-earlier skill. That would make no more sense than trimming either Catharsis or Clarity from HoC and then buffing Camouflage instead.

You already said it yourself: Oblation is what needs the buff. Stop blaming the prior skill for a mitigation imbalance of this expansion alone.

It's beyond suspicious, frankly. Apply that logic to any other job that performed fine in the previous expansion but underperforms now, declaring that its prior kit (not simply the lackluster additions) is the problem. Add that to your insistence on homogenizing TBN and frankly, you seem to have ulterior motives there.

Sure, you may not like what makes DRK's defensives unique. And that's okay. But if you're going to point fingers at what already worked just fine in place of the actual reason staring you in the face for an imbalance only after lv82, don't pretend that what you're suggesting comes from a concern for balance.

Tl;dr: do you want further imbalance in pre-cap Ultimates and further homogeneity among tanks' defensives? Because what you're suggesting how you get both.

That's what I've been saying.

Raw Intuition > Blood Whetting (25s CD)

Sheltron > Holy Sheltron (50 Oath)

Heart of Stone > Heart of Corundum (25s CD)

Oblation (60s CD with 2 charges in total 120s CD overall)

And to get the most out of Oblation you should pair it up with TBN. To the point it feels like TBN and Oblation should be baked into one skill.

Especially given the recurring concerns on button bloat.

There really is no reason why Oblation doesn't have the associated bonuses the other lvl82 skills have.

But this is just another case of DRK being stuck in ShB and only receiving some QoL over time they should of have multiple xpacs ago.

Look forward to Oblation changes in 7.0 maybe?

Oblation doesn't need a buff. It needs to be reworked or completely replaced. Unfortunately the best we can hope for this xpac is probably like an extra 5% mitigation, which even that won't bring it in line with what other tanks got.

Shadowbringer and Oblation are pretty bad and bloaty additions both. Why doesn't Delirium just change edge/flood into Shadowbringer for it's duration for example (with the potency adjusted for the burst obviously)? Like yeah, the whole rotation is in dire need of a rework, but even in a vacuum it's pretty clear no one in the job design team gave a fuck about DRK and just slapped on a couple new whatever buttons.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

I mean I think one way to balance that is to make other defenses have gauge costs associated with them like how TBN has its 3k MP cost. It would makes sense to me if Heat of Corundum cost a cartridge or say each of the WAR's heals (Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Nascent Flash) having a gauge requirement. I'd also go as far to suggest something like Bloodwhetting consumes your whole gauge and the potency/duration is determined by the amount consumed with you getting the current iteration of the ability by consuming 100 gauge.

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In practice, though, TBN has no MP cost unless you manage not to pop it (i.e., use it just before a long, auto-less cast). That'd be like HoC refunding its cartridge so long as you drop to at least 80% HP, or Bloodwhetting refunding its gauge so long as it deals at least 3 attacks while under the effect. The threshold for success would be so minimal that it'd hardly be worth calling a cost -- only a further bit of gauge management and a required fight/timing awareness.

You can expect, though, that if that MP were removed, DA would of course be gone and TBN's cooldown would almost certainly increase to 20 or 25s, which would cost it a decent bit of affordance.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Both Shadowbringer and Oblation are pretty bad and bloaty additions both. Why doesn't Delirium just change edge/flood into Shadowbringer for it's duration for example (with the potency adjusted for the burst obviously)? Like yeah, the whole rotation is in dire need of a rework, but even in a vacuum it's pretty clear no one in the job design team gave a fuck about DRK and just slapped on a couple new whatever buttons.

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Personally, I'd have liked to see Oblation as an upgrade to Dark Mind, thus retaining that discrete and more unique TBN but sacrificing no further buttons.

As for Delirium, move it away from Inner Release a bit by extending its duration and having it half the Blood costs of your next three Blood spenders (including Living Shadow) and the MP costs of your next three MP spenders. Additionally, have Edge/Flood under Delirium ramp into Dark Passenger (540p, 40% AoE) and then into Shadowbringer (620p, 40% AoE). (Edge->DP->ShB would therefore ramp up at 80 potency each time.) Shadowbringer therefore would, per Thorne's suggestion, no longer requires a separate button, and we'd get more of a sense of the DRK really building up into going ham.

Why is this nonsense thread still being kept alive?

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

Why is this nonsense thread still being kept alive?

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Probably because some randoms keep bumping it with single line posts.

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Originally Posted by Ashua

Not sure if Square/Enix is intending this to go into Savage mode as is but if the last two weeks of the expansion are of any indication the tank healing is way higher than it should be. Seeing all the numbers tanks can put out in self-healing from 10k heals to 30-40k burst heals is a tad silly. They are officially stronger healers than the classes meant to heal. We need a balance patch before the real raiding begins or this might be the most ridiculous game anyone can take seriously that wants to have a progressive raiding core to go with.


The game has a lottof issues right now with balance and cheating and I would not be against delaying the Savage raids to take care of rotation/movement bots and programs that tell you where to go and what mechanics are about to happen. That along with the balance of tanks and healers right now is also a huge consideration to me.

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I don't mind tanks healing themselves like crazy but what i don't like is that they can heal others. In my opinion Tanks shouldn't be able to heal others, that's a healer job to heal other players.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Oblation doesn't need a buff. It needs to be reworked or completely replaced. Unfortunately the best we can hope for this xpac is probably like an extra 5% mitigation, which even that won't bring it in line with what other tanks got.

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It just needs to be merged with TBN imo. I like the idea of having two TBN's charges to spread on both tanks for shared TB's. Oblation is just underwhelming. For reference, Reprisal is on the same recast, duration, mitigation and affects all enemies around you. Nothing wrong with it but for a new skill its pretty meh.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

It just needs to be merged with TBN imo. I like the idea of having two TBN's charges to spread on both tanks for shared TB's. Oblation is just underwhelming. For reference, Reprisal is on the same recast, duration, mitigation and affects all enemies around you. Nothing wrong with it but for a new skill its pretty meh.

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Merging TBN and Oblation is a bad idea, it's also counterintuitive to how TBN is designed.


You want TBN to pop, adding a damage mitigation would mean you take less damage so the shield is slightly harder to break.


Reduce charges to 1 and make Oblation 15% mit.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

Merging TBN and Oblation is a bad idea, it's also counterintuitive to how TBN is designed.

You want TBN to pop, adding a damage mitigation would mean you take less damage so the shield is slightly harder to break.

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This.

But, there is an easy compromise if the problem is TBN's mitigation profile, and yet another if Oblation itself is simply too insignificant.


If the problem is TBN's mitigation profile, make TBN itself scale a bit further with incoming damage by mixing in some degree of percentile effect. For instance, reduce its %HP shielding from 25% to 20%, but pair that with a 20% mitigation effect while it's active. In that way, its effective mitigation scales a tiny bit further with extreme or chained hits (with the optimal interaction being to absorb as many smaller hits as possible without breaking, then break on a huge hit).

If, for whatever reason, Oblation must be merged into TBN, have it take effect thereafter, such as by having that 20% mitigation effect linger for 3 seconds after TBN expires (or pops).


And if the problem is Oblation itself (being so lackluster), just have Oblation deal 20% mitigation for the first 4 seconds before degrading to 10% mitigation for the latter 4.

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Reduce charges to 1 and make Oblation 15% mit.

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No need to nerf one capacity to buff another that's already undertuned. Can just leave at two charges and still give it 15% miti. At most, trim its duration very slightly (e.g., to match TBN's 7 seconds).

Could have Oblation apply on TBN breaking to, either as additional % mitigation or a new shield.