Please implement something to teach players how to play

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

PFfffffffff my poor tummy! Many thanks that made me laugh much harder than it should. :D

Have you seen their fricken Twitter? By the twelve..

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no no, I'd rather not, seeing them trying their hardest to seem like the nice guys in the discussion but just digging themselves deeper with their entitlement is enough - and that show of sexism was a big big yikes, but I'm "sure" he's changed since then...

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

No it is up to other players to be decent human beings. I said ad nauseam that you seem to skip over that I do not care if content takes longer or that the group fails. You can repeat that line of dialogue over and over again but it will never be true. I can accept it will not always go well, I can accept people being rude. It just blows my mind a game that has a duty finder has people like you in them.

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that's how they argue, they just skip over parts they don't have an answer to and try to move goalposts as soon as possible, as seen throughout this whole thread (and a similar one a while ago where it was a very similar topic and their posts were almost exactly the same, 60 year old granny that doesn't know what DoTs are included - though... have you two never tried to explain DoTs to her, shown her how they work?!)

others from that "camp" argue the same way, too, which is where those clone comments from miashino are coming from, I guess?
always with the exaggeration, unnecessary hyperbole posted like a fact etc..
also look how some of them conveniently don't respond to people because they don't fit into that "elitist raider" image they've put up rent free in their head

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

no no, I'd rather not, seeing them trying their hardest to seem like the nice guys in the discussion but just digging themselves deeper with their entitlement is enough - and that show of sexism was a big big yikes, but I'm "sure" he's changed since then...




that's how they argue, they just skip over parts they don't have an answer to and try to move goalposts as soon as possible, as seen throughout this whole thread (and a similar one a while ago where it was a very similar topic and their posts were almost exactly the same, 60 year old granny that doesn't know what DoTs are included - though... have you two never tried to explain DoTs to her, shown her how they work?!)

others from that "camp" argue the same way, too, which is where those clone comments from miashino are coming from, I guess?
always with the exaggeration, unnecessary hyperbole posted like a fact etc..

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what type of loser would I be if I did not defend my wife from being called every name in the book because the cult of players at the time did not want to see how bad the CS was and the community had issues?


You all making my point for me. I debunked everything you all said. Gave ideas on how to get what you want, and now you show something out of context many years ago, not showing the people in that thread personal attacks and breaking the rules of the forum getting away with it.


I shall use the line I used many years ago. Putting people in place. :)

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

DF is not a Linkshell. Pugs are not part of your guild/ls or whatever. The people in it, don't have to care, should not have to care about your feelings.

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Exactly why no one cares about feelings of toxic casuals who get kicked from groups for being lazy and being a burden for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Exactly why no one cares about feelings of toxic casuals who get kicked from groups for being lazy and being a burden for everyone.

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and that is fine with me. They don't have a right to complain about that.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

DF is not a Linkshell. Pugs are not part of your guild/ls or whatever. The people in it, don't have to care, should not have to care about your feelings. It is not his or her place to do it. You can build a community for that, but it has no place in a pug setting. It is your job to handle your own fun, and if dealing with these types of people ruins your fun. Than don't do that content.

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why don't you make use of your own advice and make some friends that would run duty roulette with you and your skill-impaired wife? that way, there's no danger of her being kicked and all of you could take all the time in the world to whatever content you want to do! you do have a guild and friends that do that, right?
actually that begs the question, if it's such a social game for you two, why would either of you use DF if you've got so many social contacts? wouldn't it make more sense for you to do it with friends since you can continue to shoot the shit inside said dungeon, instead of, say, having to interrupt a talk because the queue popped?

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I don't understand how being decent has anything to do with a game setting, or people caring about your fun in a pug.

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It is not just my fun, I am not the only one having these experiences. Expected to carry a team that I physically can not carry. People have disabilities, 'It is just a game' what about those who do not have people they could play with, they enter duty finder expected to carry people who just don't care or don't know how to push buttons. No matter how hard they play they can't complete a duty not due to their own shortcomings or the disability, but because someone #doesn't like X ability. I guess I really shouldn't expect anyone to be allowed to have fun in a video game. I can't expect people to actually do the bare minimum. I am expected to carry, or leave. Why would anyone want to play a game no one wants to play? Why would I expect people to play a video game to actually play the video game.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Oh are they gonna complain too if they get beaten in an RTS video game because "they want to have fun, they dont want to THINK"? Thinking is part of many games, mmoRPGs included.

If all they want to do is have brainless fun without thinking they should be playing some simple game where you spam 1 button to kill things and feel STRONK.

Mmorpgs were always about choosing builds of your preferred playstyle and thinking of how to use your comb's advantages to beat an encounter, if gamers these days has such a hard time thinking how to solve problems and think they can facesmash their way through everything by reading a guide, then it sounds like THE COMMUNITY is the one at fault just like i said.

MMORPGs and many other games are not designed for the "me spam 1 button, me crash enemies" crowd but sadly big games attract people who have no interest in the design of said game just so they can be part of the "popular" thing.

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Actually a good post.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

No it is up to other players to be decent human beings.

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Firstly I love how elitists have equated "playing decently" as "decent human beings" which is a very different thing and has very little to do with how one plays a video game, but I shouldnt be surprised since historically certain gamers were happy to ignore slurs and other forms of bad behavior if the person "played well" or was entertaining.
Again you might need to start using different words because the ones you are using do not fit the situation unless you are specifically trying to tie game performance tosomeone's decency as a human being which is very underhanded and ugly.

Secondly I am honestly wondering how coddled can people with expectations like yours be, like, have they interacted with the real world outside of their family? This unrealistic expectation that defies reality screams that the person saying that must be incredibly out of touch with the real world to expect something as asinine as "everyone be like me and play like me", honestly it is mind boggling how coddled some people seem to be to have developed such expectations, that is not how the real world works and never will, learn to adapt, which I know can be an extremely hard task for people who follow guides xD

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Originally Posted by Voison

Some people play this game casually, hate to break it to you. Not everyone is going to be up to the same speed as you with the game.

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On the other side of this, these new players aren't being given the support they would need to be able to improve even if they wanted to. Forcing people into a mandatory tutorial won't fix the problem, but fixing the existing tutorial to teach more about each role's play pattern would. Quite simply, I think Hall of the Novice should have tutorials available running all the way up to the level cap. Still giving the Brand New Ring at the end of the "Basic Training" arc, but really, there needs to be more.

As it is right now, the only sources for reliable, easily accessed information are third party websites run by one particular discord community, you know which one.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

what type of loser would I be if I did not defend my wife from being called every name in the book because the cult of players at the time did not want to see how bad the CS was and the community had issues?


You all making my point for me. I debunked everything you all said. Gave ideas on how to get what you want, and now you show something out of context many years ago, not showing the people in that thread personal attacks and breaking the rules of the forum getting away with it.


I shall use the line I used many years ago. Putting people in place. :)

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still waiting for any points that people made to be debunked by you because that never happened, but I guess your narcissistic entitlement thinks you did
you can defend your wife without being a sexist pos, but I'm sure you're aware of that ;)

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Actually a good post.

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can't believe he's agreeing with us :O

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

On the other side of this, these new players aren't being given the support they would need to be able to improve even if they wanted to. Forcing people into a mandatory tutorial won't fix the problem, but fixing the existing tutorial to teach more about each role's play pattern would. Quite simply, I think Hall of the Novice should have tutorials available running all the way up to the level cap. Still giving the Brand New Ring at the end of the "Basic Training" arc, but really, there needs to be more.

As it is right now, the only sources for reliable, easily accessed information are third party websites run by one particular discord community, you know which one.

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Simple solution:
make community guides a thing accessible in game. There're TONS of useful guides on the internet. Job guides, dungeon/trial/raid guide, etc.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

why don't you make use of your own advice and make some friends that would run duty roulette with you and your skill-impaired wife? that way, there's no danger of her being kicked and all of you could take all the time in the world to whatever content you want to do! you do have a guild and friends that do that, right?
actually that begs the question, if it's such a social game for you two, why would either of you use DF if you've got so many social contacts? wouldn't it make more sense for you to do it with friends since you can continue to shoot the shit inside said dungeon, instead of, say, having to interrupt a talk because the queue popped?

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Lets lay off his wife, regardless of her... opinion on the matter... they are still separate individuals even if they both align closely together.
It's pretty clear at this point there's purposeful intellectual dishonesty going on and nothing we do or say can change that and I think I've derailed the thread enough alone with just these last 2 pages.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Firstly I love how elitists have equated "playing decently" as "decent human beings" which is a very different thing and has very little to do with how one plays a video game, but I shouldnt be surprised since historically certain gamers were happy to ignore slurs and other forms of bad behavior if the person "played well" or was entertaining.
Again you might need to start using different words because the ones you are using do not fit the situation unless you are specifically trying to tie game performance tosomeone's decency as a human being which is very underhanded and ugly.

Secondly I am honestly wondering how coddled can people with expectations like yours be, like, have they interacted with the real world outside of their family? This unrealistic expectation that defies reality screams that the person saying that must be incredibly out of touch with the real world to expect something as asinine as "everyone be like me and play like me", honestly it is mind boggling how coddled some people seem to be to have developed such expectations, that is not how the real world works and never will, learn to adapt, which I know can be an extremely hard task for people who follow guides xD

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https://www.canr.msu.edu/uploads/ima...bales_sm_1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Simple solution:
make community guides a thing accessible in game. There're TONS of useful guides on the internet. Job guides, dungeon/trial/raid guide, etc.

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I agree in theory, but in practice, I'd worry about the need for moderation and vetting, and who would be responsible for doing so.
As much as it pains me to say, it seems like the GMs especially are somewhat disconnected, for lack of a better term, from the game at large; they mostly seem to keep to themselves and they often don't understand hard content. That deficiency in understanding has caused me issues when I made a GM call against a person who was griefing in a Savage party finder.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

still waiting for any points that people made to be debunked by you because that never happened, but I guess your narcissistic entitlement thinks you did
you can defend your wife without being a sexist pos, but I'm sure you're aware of that ;)



can't believe he's agreeing with us :O

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Nope, at the time i made my point clear. At how bad the rules was not being enforced, and even talked with a GM afterwards who told me they was sorry about the thread, and did not agree with how I handle it. But understood tempers was flaring because the people would not accept that my wife could not get help at the time.


Things have come a looong ways. Btw to answer your other question. DF is design to be easy and for players like her. So the content does not require her to do it. So why should she?


It takes a ton to irk me...but the community that day? Oh boy.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Firstly I love how elitists have equated "playing decently" as "decent human beings" which is a very different thing and has very little to do with how one plays a video game, but I shouldnt be surprised since historically certain gamers were happy to ignore slurs and other forms of bad behavior if the person "played well" or was entertaining.
Again you might need to start using different words because the ones you are using do not fit the situation unless you are specifically trying to tie game performance tosomeone's decency as a human being which is very underhanded and ugly.

Secondly I am honestly wondering how coddled can people with expectations like yours be, like, have they interacted with the real world outside of their family? This unrealistic expectation that defies reality screams that the person saying that must be incredibly out of touch with the real world to expect something as asinine as "everyone be like me and play like me", honestly it is mind boggling how coddled some people seem to be to have developed such expectations, that is not how the real world works and never will, learn to adapt, which I know can be an extremely hard task for people who follow guides xD

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No I legitimately mean decent human being. Not treating a fellow human at the other end of the computer screen or tv in a video game like they are worthless or someone to use to complete something as fast as they can to get to the next thing. Read the whole of the argument I have been debating or any of it before you mince words. I never once said anything about wishing people to play like me. I have said I can't play well. I can't carry people as much as I would want to help a group of sprouts through a dungeon. I honestly expected better from you after reading some of your other posts, but you seem to be very glued to find posts reading one word and interpreting them in the most elitist way you could possibly post.

My post was to note that some of the people not pushing their buttons would be considered toxic elitists, expecting everything handed to them yesterday they may also be toxic casual but the terms are shallow and not one term could derive a description for someone who is simply a jerk. It just so happened that the toxic elitist was also a toxic casual. It was ironic because this thread has a bunch of people being called one or the other, but either are true or exclusive. Maybe you wish for a political stance so you could further put people into your narrow view of reality.

I don't like seeing people treated poorly for no good reason in a game that touts its 'great community' it seems the term gcbtw is quite true.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

I bet, you didn't think before you wrote this. Probably because thinking isn't fun.

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I thought very much before I wrote it.

Thinking absolutely can be fun for some people. I'm one of them. I like solving puzzles.

But I also like other things. I don't want to be spending all of my time solving puzzles when that's taking time away from other things I also want to do.

Not everyone finds THINK to be fun. They just want to relax after a stressful day doing other things. But perhaps your own ability to THINK is too narrow to understand that.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

that's how they argue, they just skip over parts they don't have an answer to and try to move goalposts as soon as possible, as seen throughout this whole thread (and a similar one a while ago where it was a very similar topic and their posts were almost exactly the same, 60 year old granny that doesn't know what DoTs are included - though... have you two never tried to explain DoTs to her, shown her how they work?!)

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My uncle is currently 69 years old and the first thing he did after watching us play and receiving minor advice was pull the entire clam room of Sastasha into the boss arena. His opening line; "Eyyyy team we gonna do this." I only wish I saw all of it or could know what his sprout healer was thinking at the time! :D He wishes to assist in leading our static if we ever form one but unfortunately works too many hours. He does have countless years of mmo experience I will admit though each game is different the way of thinking is what matters most.

Something close to; "How do you know you will fail if you never try?" or "Don't you wanna see what we can live through? Let's go big!" I learned really quickly how to heal and do deeps. Unsure where this story of theirs comes from but age does not mean much to me, I think anyone can still learn because I have seen it with my own eyes.

Sheeesh now that I am thinking of this (much better then the other nonsense being discussed yet again). Many of my family and extended family had some ideas most fantastic about helping teach players. Everyone who has done the Gunbreaker quest loves that one and only wishes that the big kitty mans was in your party so you can shirk them.

The same uncle went on a massive rant about the gladiator and marauder starter job quests, saying they do awful job of teaching tanking skills. They actually kinda do.. plus you do not even have your stance for two of them.

I was able to watch two of my friends sit down on the ground and do nothing for one of those gladiator quests. I cannot remember the name, it involves Aldis killing stuffs in the Ul'Dah adventurers guild. Yes, they did beat the quest.. by sitting.. doing nothing.. I died inside a little. Aldis eventually killed everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arkevorkhat

I agree in theory, but in practice, I'd worry about the need for moderation and vetting, and who would be responsible for doing so.
As much as it pains me to say, it seems like the GMs especially are somewhat disconnected, for lack of a better term, from the game at large; they mostly seem to keep to themselves and they often don't understand hard content. That deficiency in understanding has caused me issues when I made a GM call against a person who was griefing in a Savage party finder.

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I don't think that putting guides for moderation before they see the world is such a difficult thing. It's simpler than to rework HoN or add another system for sure.
A lot of people just don't like to look for things themselves, but with in game guides it would make their life easier.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I thought very much before I wrote it.

Thinking absolutely can be fun for some people. I'm one of them. I like solving puzzles.

But I also like other things. I don't want to be spending all of my time solving puzzles when that's taking time away from other things I also want to do.

Not everyone finds THINK to be fun. They just want to relax after a stressful day doing other things. But perhaps your own ability to THINK is too narrow to understand that.

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Well just don't do stressful or hard content if you want to relax? But I guess we now need to cater towards "tired" people when we make games. Right.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

No I legitimately mean decent human being. Not treating a fellow human at the other end of the computer screen or tv in a video game like they are worthless or someone to use to complete something as fast as they can to get to the next thing. Read the whole of the argument I have been debating or any of it before you mince words. I never once said anything about wishing people to play like me. I have said I can't play well. I can't carry people as much as I would want to help a group of sprouts through a dungeon. I honestly expected better from you after reading some of your other posts, but you seem to be very glued to find posts reading one word and interpreting them in the most elitist way you could possibly post.

My post was to note that some of the people not pushing their buttons would be considered toxic elitists, expecting everything handed to them yesterday they may also be toxic casual but the terms are shallow and not one term could derive a description for someone who is simply a jerk. It just so happened that the toxic elitist was also a toxic casual. It was ironic because this thread has a bunch of people being called one or the other, but either are true or exclusive. Maybe you wish for a political stance so you could further put people into your narrow view of reality.

I don't like seeing people treated poorly for no good reason in a game that touts its 'great community' it seems the term gcbtw is quite true.

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Ok that would be my mistake then because I assumed you were attempting to connect player performance to being a "decent human being" which is something really wrong and ugly but wouldnt be surprised if certain gamers would attempt it.

Again though I will stand by my point that having such expectations from people is ridiculous, like you might wish for everyone to be nice and friendly and positive but sadly that will never be a thing, at least not at this day and age so having such expectations is silly because they will only get crushed repeatedly, you can be nice yourself and try to promote it but you cannot have such expectations because they are simply not realistic.


I can understand that you dont like it and especially the gcbtw but it honestly feels the worst people are often in the forums, my ingame experience though I am in JP DC has been incredibly positive, I think i ve only run once to an angry elitist who was insulting and literally spamming /spit on someone for not attacking adds in SHIVA NORMAL which can literally be beaten with 2-3 dps dead so him obsessing over adds was moronic, which is something i instantly reported and thankfully his emote spam made it reportable by me as well.

Most people's ingame experience seems to be extremely positive which can make people feel like it is a great community, only once you come into the forums or start going into high end groups you start seeing this massive amount of tryhard elitists attacking others and whining about how their runs are less efficient, something that a big part of the community never really sees which makes the great community thing kinda true for them.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

that's how they argue, they just skip over parts they don't have an answer to and try to move goalposts as soon as possible, as seen throughout this whole thread (and a similar one a while ago where it was a very similar topic and their posts were almost exactly the same, 60 year old granny that doesn't know what DoTs are included - though... have you two never tried to explain DoTs to her, shown her how they work?!)

others from that "camp" argue the same way, too, which is where those clone comments from miashino are coming from, I guess?
always with the exaggeration, unnecessary hyperbole posted like a fact etc..
also look how some of them conveniently don't respond to people because they don't fit into that "elitist raider" image they've put up rent free in their head

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I think I have officially been dubbed an elitist raider, when I have just done story content. Maybe it was my palace of the dad scores, or my extremely high parses fighting one of the opo opos back when I first started as a bard. I did make it to floor 120, I may need to go and find where those scores are kept and see if I could delete them. Maybe it was a big pull in Akadaemia Anyder that I was proud of before I realized I could have pulled two more mobs and had to do a two enemy pull of shame. Ironically they were all upset about people speed running content and being elitist, but when I said something about people rapid pulling when trying to wait for a response it was suddenly okay for those people to speed running and be elitists within content. It was my fault for expecting people to not be jerks apparently. Though this entire time they have been complaining about the same thing, but it could never be their faults. They are the gods of this world, not I, the lowly dragon person of questionable gender.

I take toxic elitist over toxic casuals any day of the week. With both might be jerks, atleast the elitist know how to hit buttons so they are easier to ignore.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

what type of loser would I be if I did not defend my wife from being called every name in the book because the cult of players at the time did not want to see how bad the CS was and the community had issues?

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Pretty much every time so far her reputation has caught fire -- albeit usually for her own inflammatory or disingenuous remarks -- you've only ever doused her... with accelerant. That hardly seems a noble favor and may be far worse than the kind of "loser" who gives level advice as to where a given comment makes no sense, is utterly narcissistic, etc., as appropriate so she can decide whether to backpaddle or adjust before you've added your momentum to the crash course.

Nearly the worst you can do is add fire, as you have, especially if with poorly thought-out or contradictory messages like condemning others for heirarchicalizing others just before gloating about your...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Putting people in place. :D

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

I think I have officially been dubbed an elitist raider

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I am beginning to wonder if this Ralph person suffers from bipolar disorder or histrionic personality disorder, perhaps borderline? One moment they are making complete and absolute sense the next they are weaving elaborate tales or placing words into the mouths of others. It is like a reality was created within the mind and is being projected onto every possible entry point in the conversation.

Back through the post history we gooooooo, nope. I am not seeing anything suggesting players should insult one another over performance, I am seeing a whooole lot of condemning that behavior though.

Perhaps we can return to the original topic? Yes? Maybe even Ralph has a few ideas about how the game could better teach new players how to play it?

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Ok that would be my mistake then because I assumed you were attempting to connect player performance to being a "decent human being" which is something really wrong and ugly but wouldnt be surprised if certain gamers would attempt it.

Again though I will stand by my point that having such expectations from people is ridiculous, like you might wish for everyone to be nice and friendly and positive but sadly that will never be a thing, at least not at this day and age so having such expectations is silly because they will only get crushed repeatedly, you can be nice yourself and try to promote it but you cannot have such expectations because they are simply not realistic.


I can understand that you dont like it and especially the gcbtw but it honestly feels the worst people are often in the forums, my ingame experience though I am in JP DC has been incredibly positive, I think i ve only run once to an angry elitist who was insulting and literally spamming /spit on someone for not attacking adds in SHIVA NORMAL which can literally be beaten with 2-3 dps dead so him obsessing over adds was moronic, which is something i instantly reported and thankfully his emote spam made it reportable by me as well.

Most people's ingame experience seems to be extremely positive which can make people feel like it is a great community, only once you come into the forums or start going into high end groups you start seeing this massive amount of tryhard elitists attacking others and whining about how their runs are less efficient, something that a big part of the community never really sees which makes the great community thing kinda true for them.

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The experience with duty finder in NA is just a mess, honestly I have gotten a decent amount of nice people, but it truly is a dice roll. For every super fun run with sprouts with no expectations there is another with some weirdo freaking out on people. Then there is the person I had in Qarn who just skipped all of the loot when the sprout was there for the first time. I think leveling a dps is cursed. I just wished to level dps so I knew what to expect when going into content. I wished to know what the ground aoes dps put down so I do not mistaken it for an enemies. What other classes may be viewing from their portion of the battle field. What mechanics they have within their class such as ninja's needed to refresh their pinwheel and not to chain pull because you can not become hidden during combat like in other games I have played that had separate skills for being able to hide in combat. Maybe NA data centers themselves are cursed. I just wish to relax, and not get into something every other time with someone with a bad attitude. I honestly thought it was a meme about people blaming healers too, a tank actually blamed the healer for their death in sleepy snowcloak.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Pretty much every time so far her reputation has caught fire -- albeit usually for her own inflammatory or disingenuous remarks -- you've only ever doused her... with accelerant. That hardly seems a noble favor and may be far worse than the kind of "loser" who gives level advice as to where a given comment makes no sense, is utterly narcissistic, etc., as appropriate so she can decide whether to backpaddle or adjust before you've added your momentum to the crash course.

Nearly the worst you can do is add fire, as you have, especially if with poorly thought-out or contradictory messages like condemning others for heirarchicalizing others just before gloating about your...

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Oh boy. I'm not even going to comment on that one. Either way that thread was bad all around for myself and the community. I talked with gms to clear it up, and the person was dealt with. So all well that ends well. The person going back and using the past as a way to discredit me all because he does not agree, Looks bad on them more so than me to bring up a 5-6 year old thread. I explain my reasons, and I also fully support my wife play style. It is not anyone in the community place to tell her how to play in a pug settings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Oh boy. I'm not even going to comment on that one. Either way that thread was bad all around for myself and the community. I talked with gms to clear it up, and the person was dealt with. So all well that ends well. The person going back and using the past as a way to discredit me all because he does not agree, Looks bad on them more so than me. I explain my reasons, and I also fully support my wife play style. It is not anyone in the community place to tell her how to play in a pug settings.

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But everyone else having to compromise on their play style in order to accommodate your wife's play style in pug groups and she never has to compromise is unfair to other players.

Your wife should be the one to compromise sometimes.

I suggest she compromises in dungeons as a start. Where her preferred style of play has the most negative impact to the ability to complete the content.

Now, if you use the PF to find a group that's willing to carry her, then go for it. She doesn't have to compromise because the others agreed to make up for her play style's short comings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I thought very much before I wrote it.

Thinking absolutely can be fun for some people. I'm one of them. I like solving puzzles.

But I also like other things. I don't want to be spending all of my time solving puzzles when that's taking time away from other things I also want to do.

Not everyone finds THINK to be fun. They just want to relax after a stressful day doing other things. But perhaps your own ability to THINK is too narrow to understand that.

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"I want to relax, but I don't want to just do the things made to be relaxing, so I want the stuff that wasn't (originally) intended just to (continue to) be changed until it is similarly relaxing."

You realize this applies in the inverse, too, right? "I want to really cognitively engage in something, but I don't want to just do the content forms to which that engagement has been constrained (8-man boss arenas), so I want stuff to see some among the later iterations of content forms that haven't always been intended to be cognitively engaging to offer cognitive engagement."

But, alas, somehow the first, despite being the more reductive, is fine, while the latter would likely trigger uproar...

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There is content to be played while relaxing or to relax. No one is suggesting that such be removed, only that cognitive load not be increasingly restricted to Savage, Ultimates, and the occasional harder Extreme trial -- in other words, only to be found off the main road and in perfectly circular or rectangular rooms -- or divorced from the common player experience, per the trajectory of changes since the game's release, be that to the content itself or to job toolkits and playflow.

:: Many here would also add, if the game did a better job of situating its own tools (its stuff to be interacted with or made use of), engagement would be less at odds with relaxation, and vice versa.

For instance, look at endgame dungeons on ARR's release and shortly thereafter, such as pre-nerf Amdapor Keep or Pharos Sirius. Look at dungeons now.

Especially in the context of the job playflows themselves being so simplified, the norm has increasingly become one where cognitive load significant enough to be engaging for more than even just half the community is something you have to go out of your way for and is increasingly less diverse in its forms. And that trajectory appears likely to continue given the comments we've seen from the devs regarding the inevitable design constraints of "skill gap", for which they still solely blame the players, rather than their ability to facilitate or incentivize learning.

Even a request to keep things the same as they are now, then, is asking for a change to that trajectory, which others will then take as reason to get up in arms against "entitled elitists" for their wanting there to remain some semblance of diversity in content with cognitive load, or even just to not have yet another of their main jobs gutted. God forbid those "elitists" ask for further options with, for them, engaging cognitive load outside of merely perfectly circular or rectangular rooms. The horror.

Clearly, increased options in a direction that has more stuff available to interact with or make use of -- and to be used to the extent one has skill for -- would be horrid pandering to the oppressive elite. Meanwhile, steadily rounding up those forms of engagement and isolating them among Ultimate fights, while leaving the typical experience increasingly barren or shallow just so a select group doesn't feel as bad about not using the tools that would otherwise be offered them... is perfectly fine?

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

But everyone else having to compromise on their play style in order to accommodate your wife's play style in pug groups and she never has to compromise is unfair to other players.

Your wife should be the one to compromise sometimes.

I suggest she compromises in dungeons as a start. Where her preferred style of play has the most negative impact to the ability to complete the content.

Now, if you use the PF to find a group that's willing to carry her, then go for it. She doesn't have to compromise because the others agreed to make up for her play style's short comings.

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That is fine in a pug setting. It is up to the players to understand that is the content they are getting into. It is not her place to change because the content still gets done with how she plays. It is design to be done base off bad players.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

The experience with duty finder in NA is just a mess, honestly I have gotten a decent amount of nice people, but it truly is a dice roll. For every super fun run with sprouts with no expectations there is another with some weirdo freaking out on people. Then there is the person I had in Qarn who just skipped all of the loot when the sprout was there for the first time. I think leveling a dps is cursed. I just wished to level dps so I knew what to expect when going into content. I wished to know what the ground aoes dps put down so I do not mistaken it for an enemies. What other classes may be viewing from their portion of the battle field. What mechanics they have within their class such as ninja's needed to refresh their pinwheel and not to chain pull because you can not become hidden during combat like in other games I have played that had separate skills for being able to hide in combat. Maybe NA data centers themselves are cursed. I just wish to relax, and not get into something every other time with someone with a bad attitude. I honestly thought it was a meme about people blaming healers too, a tank actually blamed the healer for their death in sleepy snowcloak.

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I play on NA servers and have seen very little issues on leveling roulette. I haven't seen a true bad apple in at least a month, but they are definitely out there. The skipping treasure chests is the norm, but usually if you ask the tank they will oblige (but to be honest many tanks may not even know here the chests are since nobody ever goes for them anyway)

AFAIK NIN does later get a skill that lets them cast their hide skills in combat, but I am definitely the sprout that ran out of the NIN fart cloud the first time I saw it thinking it was an enemy AoE

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

The experience with duty finder in NA is just a mess, honestly I have gotten a decent amount of nice people, but it truly is a dice roll. For every super fun run with sprouts with no expectations there is another with some weirdo freaking out on people.

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That definitely sounds like an NA thing and people coming from WoW or the average western game with 0 moderation where they are allowed to act like that and attack others because unless there's 10 people reporting you, nothing happens to you. Bit worried on how the OCE servers will be once they arrive since i ll be moving there for the better ms.

Unlike most western games though SE seems to actually read reports and act upon them if your report is genuine, if you ever get attacked you should easily be able to report that person just so they dont do the same thing to another person in the future, rules are a little weird as in you apparently can report someone harassing someone else but you could report their emote spam

Imo to see change, you have to change the attitude of THE COMMUNITY, especially the western one and the only way to fix that is to be what they would call "report happy", report bad behavior and slowly more and more people will know there's serious consequences if you attack others unlike most western video games, there has already been complaints from people with bad behavior that SE bans you for the "slightest" thing, as long as people keep reporting and remind people that there's actual moderation in FF14 things could change over time, dont let toxic people free, it might be hard or tiring to have to write another report, but it is the only way such people learn because they are used to the average no consequences western game.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I take toxic elitist over toxic casuals any day of the week. With both might be jerks, atleast the elitist know how to hit buttons so they are easier to ignore.

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Trust me, we know, it is quite clear you would prefer to play with people like yourself, after all gamers have historically ignored enormous red flags and terrible behavior if that person knew "how to hit buttons" or was entertaining.

But sorry, some of us have actual standards when it comes to people instead of only caring about video game performance and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

That is fine in a pug setting. It is up to the players to understand that is the content they are getting into. It is not her place to change because the content still gets done with how she plays. It is design to be done base off bad players.

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Just as it's the rest of the group's place to not want someone like her in their group if they so desire.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Just as it's the rest of the group's place to not want someone like her in their group if they so desire.

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You have the tools if the group picks to do that. But most of the time the groups don't care as long as it gets done.


So what is the problem?

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

You have the tools if the group picks to do that. But most of the time the groups don't care as long as it gets done.


So what is the problem?

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The fact you seem far too sure you're false pretense is accurate when it isn't. Just because the content can be cleared that way doesn't mean it was intended to. As you love to ignore this: you say anything past the 2 or 3 skills is all you need and the rest is for the "stuff that requires it." Well, when in order to get to this "stuff" you need to first complete these 4 man things in which you have access to the same number of skills or minus a few in the case of 70-79.

So by this simple analysis, the game is very clearly intended for you to use all the actions you have available to you. The fact you may be able to get away by only using 2-3 of them doesn't mean that it's intended you only use the said 2-3.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

I play on NA servers and have seen very little issues on leveling roulette. I haven't seen a true bad apple in at least a month, but they are definitely out there. The skipping treasure chests is the norm, but usually if you ask the tank they will oblige (but to be honest many tanks may not even know here the chests are since nobody ever goes for them anyway)

AFAIK NIN does later get a skill that lets them cast their hide skills in combat, but I am definitely the sprout that ran out of the NIN fart cloud the first time I saw it thinking it was an enemy AoE

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I usually ask just in case and if no one answers and they wanted them there would be no way for me to know. The tank wasn't horrible they explained to doom mechanic, but I am now feeling kind of bad because it never happened due to me and the other dps' stun timing >.< I know where all of the chests are and how to get them because I wanted all of the treasure just to know what they dropped. That gear is pretty good too starting out because you never know what other dungeons people are going to skip chests. I think the tank just wanted the dungeon done honestly, they even skipped the stones which was fine because I wished for xp and not solving the 'puzzle' at the last door give you extra enemies instead of treasure.

The worst AoE though will go to the Smn because Titan's looks like a giant lava circle. How are people suppose to know that particular lava pool is okay to stand inside.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

You have the tools if the group picks to do that. But most of the time the groups don't care as long as it gets done.


So what is the problem?

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The problem is that she and you expect everyone else to change how they play to accommodate her, but get defensive when someone dares ask that she changes how she plays the game.

You ask others to be a team player to get your wife through content, but refuse to be a team player back by making it easier on them.

It would be different if your wife had a disability that made playing the game at her current level the best she can do.

But you've admitted that she chooses what skills to use based on what looks cool.

That's the problem.

You expect others to do what you refuse to do.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

The problem is that she and you expect everyone else to change how they play to accommodate her, but get defensive when someone dares ask that she changes how she plays the game.

You ask others to be a team player to get your wife through content, but refuse to be a team player back by making it easier on them.

It would be different if your wife had a disability that made playing the game at her current level the best she can do.

But you've admitted that she chooses what skills to use based on what looks cool.

That's the problem.

You expect others to do what you refuse to do.

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No she does not? She does not care how you all play. Just like I don't. Also when I do pugs. I don't ask anything. We are just using each other to try and get content done. Not to be friends. Not to make sure others enjoy the game. She gets the content done playing how she wants.



If you got a group of players that played like her. The content would still get done. Maybe it would take much longer. But as long as it gets done that is all that matters to them. That is what DF is, and what it is design for.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

For instance, look at endgame dungeons on ARR's release and shortly thereafter, such as pre-nerf Amdapor Keep or Pharos Sirius. Look at dungeons now.

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Myself and many friends talk about this lots. Me and my partner were going through the game rather slowly and decided what the heck, let us try the Binding Coil. That whoooole series is fricken intense! There are so many neat levels in there with large winding paths leading up to the boss encounter placated with various hazards of deadliness. Even the trash mobs are deadly! That is just the normal mode.. apparently the Binding Coil normal is considered Savage difficulty?

Speaking of Pharos Sirius or as I am calling it Sirius wipes because every time I get this one in roulette there is at least one wipe. The fire sprites in there are still deadly. They cast a spell called "Banish". If you pull too many of these and no one interrupts Banish it will wipe the group.

Later floors of Palace Of the Dead are most interesting too! If you have never tried doing huuuge chungus pulls on floors 50+ of potd I suggest trying this. You will have twenty things beating on you that all do mechanics. Gaze attacks, multiple tank busters, roomwide sleep spells, abilities that ignore the tank and target random party members.

I would loooooove a dungeon designed with trash mobs like that in it.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

I play on NA servers and have seen very little issues on leveling roulette. I haven't seen a true bad apple in at least a month, but they are definitely out there.

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We have seen some most awful stuffs and heard stories from poor friends experiencing it. I think our luck is just terrible. ;P

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

No she does not? She does not care how you all play. Just like I don't. Also when I do pugs. I don't ask anything. We are just using each other to try and get content done. Not to be friends. Not to make sure others enjoy the game. She gets the content done playing how she wants.



If you got a group of players that played like her. The content would still get done. Maybe it would take much longer. But as long as it gets done that is all that matters to them. That is what DF is, and what it is design for.

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Except the very idea of intentionally not using half your kit puts that much more work on the rest of the group to make up for a selfish old-lady that refuses to actually play the game. It's a good thing Yotsuyu isn't around anymore. We know how she feels about old people...

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Except the very idea of intentionally not using half your kit puts that much more work on the rest of the group to make up for a selfish old-lady that refuses to actually play the game. It's a good thing Yotsuyu isn't around anymore. We know how she feels about old people...

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And I must say so what? You got to work harder. (and i would argue that the content so easy I would not consider it work.)

I mean if your time matters so much. I question why are you playing a mmorpg. The way I see it. My wife makes you earn that reward. You all want the content to be tougher right? So have at it lol. And guess what? While doing the content she is having fun and laughing. :)