Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

You... realize it's possible to branch off from a quoted post with a different discussion topic or point, right? That's how forums work?

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Of course, but it should be clear when you do that. Your post, even the one that you quoted yourself, made it seem like you were deflecting on not understanding about the Scholar topic and tried to say you had other point regarding my post.

Branching off to make another related point makes sense. Branching off just to reiterate your initial point in the thread when neither of the posts you quoted had anything to do with that doesn't make sense.

So of course that would create misunderstanding. Just be clear next time and delineate your points better.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Might work for some, others might think "Why did those jerks kick me?!" and will come to the forums to complain. :p Either way, we usually only hear one side of the story, and there's always some details that are conveniently left out.

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I generally don't see people complain about being kicked, unless it's in that one duty finder thread.

Come on, they continue with the argument that it is a problem that does not happen? Go to Frontline and see how many people without brains who are not able to read who have 3 potions to heal, anyone who actively PVP knows perfectly the problems that PVE has given in this game, many of these knocked down with a outdated curve of learning.

-It is necessary to renew the Hall of novice and make it mandatory
-It is necessary that the jobs stone are mandatory for the progress of the story
-It is necessary to eliminate the Easy mode of the MSQ at the same time eliminate the echo of it and the class missions, in this way if you die you analyze why you have died instead of simply continuing to try until you have a 30% increase stats.
-PVP requires a mandatory tutorial that forces players to know what their buttons are for.

With this there is no longer the excuse of not "knowing" something, you have the mandatory tools in the game itself, each player will know how to use the knowledge that the game gave.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

-It is necessary to renew the Hall of novice and make it mandatory

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I just wanna focus on this part, because while I agree, I think I know the reasoning to why it wasn't a requirement, and unlike most times where I say it's stupid, you do kinda have to blame WoW for this.

In WoD they decided that the Proving Grounds would be required to do heroic content. You'd have to prove at least a silver, which was pretty easy all things considered, in the role you're wanting to queue for. So if you wanted to heal, you had to show you had a basic grasp of healing. While this isn't Hall of Novice level where the game is actively teaching you, it is giving you stuff to do in order to use your abilities to reach a goal in a solo environment.

And the problem was players despised this. For something that was easy (I promise, it was, even my dumb butt could do it and I'm bad at wow), a lot of players struggled with it, to the point players were either actively paying REAL MONEY for someone else to do it for them, or they just actively refused to do it at all, and just never unlocked heroic. It was bad enough that Blizzard had to back out, and remove the requirement before the expac even finished, because players just hated being force tested.

So if I had to guess, that's probably why Square didn't make Hall of Novice a requirement to dungeon, because they were concerned of newbies who might have difficulty and just quit over it, and for Square that is still money walking out the door, regardless if it's someone who wants to actually learn or not.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I just wanna focus on this part, because while I agree, I think I know the reasoning to why it wasn't a requirement, and unlike most times where I say it's stupid, you do kinda have to blame WoW for this.

In WoD they decided that the Proving Grounds would be required to do heroic content. You'd have to prove at least a silver, which was pretty easy all things considered, in the role you're wanting to queue for. So if you wanted to heal, you had to show you had a basic grasp of healing. While this isn't Hall of Novice level where the game is actively teaching you, it is giving you stuff to do in order to use your abilities to reach a goal in a solo environment.

And the problem was players despised this. For something that was easy (I promise, it was, even my dumb butt could do it and I'm bad at wow), a lot of players struggled with it, to the point players were either actively paying REAL MONEY for someone else to do it for them, or they just actively refused to do it at all, and just never unlocked heroic. It was bad enough that Blizzard had to back out, and remove the requirement before the expac even finished, because players just hated being force tested.

So if I had to guess, that's probably why Square didn't make Hall of Novice a requirement to dungeon, because they were concerned of newbies who might have difficulty and just quit over it, and for Square that is still money walking out the door, regardless if it's someone who wants to actually learn or not.

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I really think we all know the decisions why many of these things are not mandatory, even because they have made the fighting in the MSQ too easy, which simply gives us reason by bothering us with a non-existent learning curve that only hurts the population of the game. .

Maybe they could just designate one of the servers the try hard server and everyone who wants arbitrary tests to get into normal expansion content that you bought to play can go there and be gated with a test for every dungeon or raid or any other instance that requires combat and everyone else can enjoy the current design.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Maybe they could just designate one of the servers the try hard server and everyone who wants arbitrary tests to get into normal expansion content that you bought to play can go there and be gated with a test for every dungeon or raid or any other instance that requires combat and everyone else can enjoy the current design.

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I don't think wanting people to use the basics of their toolkit is being a "try hard". If people can't handle a Hall of the Novice completion...well, perhaps they shouldn't be doing group content.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Maybe they could just designate one of the servers the try hard server and everyone who wants arbitrary tests to get into normal expansion content that you bought to play can go there and be gated with a test for every dungeon or raid or any other instance that requires combat and everyone else can enjoy the current design.

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While thats a bit extreme, it's not a bad idea I'm practice. However, it only benefits one group of players. Players that SE needs to cover for all the less than stellar players that they coddle.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Maybe they could just designate one of the servers the try hard server and everyone who wants arbitrary tests to get into normal expansion content that you bought to play can go there and be gated with a test for every dungeon or raid or any other instance that requires combat and everyone else can enjoy the current design.

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I don't think people knowing how to play their job and using their toolkit, understanding what an AOE looks like and that you really shouldn't just stand in them on purpose all the time, or know what a stack marker looks like and what to do with it is a try hard. That's just basic gameplay. I don't think it's too much to ask to for basic gameplay in MSQ dungeons and trials.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

-It is necessary to eliminate the Easy mode of the MSQ at the same time eliminate the echo of it and the class missions, in this way if you die you analyze why you have died instead of simply continuing to try until you have a 30% increase stats..

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Most failures in story content come down to bad information or overall lack of information in a presentable / eye catching way.. many quests do give you some hints or objectives but they typically come up in the chat log where noone is really looking because they're paying attention to whats actually going on.. and not only that if you havent sent time customizing your chat log and still using the default settings it's real easy for that information to dissapear very quickly if someone in your ls or fc is talking in chat..

adding an easy mode and very easy mode was totally unnecessary here all they had to do is make itclearer what they expected players to do and many dont make sense anyway with the jobs.. like many of the paladin quests treat you like a dps not a tank. so you run in like a tank and grab that boss and you're going to fail cos you're supposed to be runnnig around killing the nobodies..

think the worst one i ever did was either smn or blm in coerthas. where some void spawns waaaayyyyyy over there in the distance and you have no idea at all your meant to go and seal it. so instead everyone just endlessly stick near the npcs trying to nuke everything down until they get overwhelemed and fail.. it used to be notorious for it.. it was never that t was a difficult task. it was just the game doing a terrible job of telling players what was expected of them...

imo they should have fixed that rather than just tack ona very easy mode that lets you just overpower everything with no care at all what your supposed to do..

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Originally Posted by Arillyn

I don't think people knowing how to play their job and using their toolkit, understanding what an AOE looks like and that you really shouldn't just stand in them on purpose all the time, or know what a stack marker looks like and what to do with it is a try hard. That's just basic gameplay. I don't think it's too much to ask to for basic gameplay in MSQ dungeons and trials.

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Stack marker wise I'd like to see SE make that consistent across all the content. Where you have one consistent sign of 'shit time to stack up' rather than like what.. three or four different visual ques for it?

:confused: Whatever happen to the days of figuring things out and not needing hand holding in every part of the game.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

:confused: Whatever happen to the days of figuring things out and not needing hand holding in every part of the game.

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When the devs include hard dps checks and don't give the player base the proper tools for figuring it out, or really any kind of feedback system. ACT was born out of necessity in 14.

The days of figuring things out for yourself resulted in me doing stuff like trying to keep medica 2 applied at all times during trash pulls, stacking medica 2 on top of regen for boss fights, and running around with darkside up but no Grit back in Stormblood. Fortunately people were kind enough to correct my mistakes, point me towards some guides on how to heal and tank, and give me advice. Even if the advice was blunt at times, I took it in stride and thanked them anyways, because they didn't have to give me any pointers at all.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Greetings, fellow players. To get to the point, Final Fantasy XIV has a terrible culture of enabling. Enabling what? A lot of things. Bad habits, such as kicking people from novice network for trying to correct poor play. Creepy habits, such as the various illicit PFs and what happens there in. Enabling poor play and coddling players is probably the most visible. Such as for example a mentor got dogpiled on in Siren's NN for trying to correct a player whom had not done their job quest, because they "didn't feel like doing them". Honestly this probably the most toxic aspect of this game and its community. What can we do about it? It seems to infect almost every corner of this game.

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You want to know the worst part about an easy dungeon or raid? When we have someone like yourself who makes an easy raid into one that everyone hates because you worship at the alter of the mechanics. In fact, in many raids there is always one person who goes the entire raid making fun of that type of person even if thankfully they are not in there by mocking the worshippers of the 'mechanics'

Cause we all know the mechanics saved your soul and do you accept the mechanics as your personal lord and savior?

This is not FFXI in fact Tanka and Hawaiian shirt guy were fired or forced to retire after ruining the original FFXIV. This game is played by casuals and geared towards casuals. You're the type of person who comes into a Jazz Club and demands they play country or rock.

People in this game take their time and experience the story. I was once accused by one of you people of buying my account after mentioning I have been playing since 2013 but haven't beaten Stormblood yet after having a bunch of level 80s. That's because I am taking my time and enjoying the sights. I beat ARR for the first time last year and had four level 80s before I beat Heavensward.

Did you know you can't do all class jobs unless you either a) unlocked that specific expansions progress within the MSQ b) Paid to raise your job level to the max.

Have you considered you might have party members who are still in the MSQ ARR storyline and can't unlock new abilities past 50? Same with the rest of the expansions. Once you get to Stormblood even if your max level or level 70 you still can't unlock new job quests unless you beaten certain parts of the stormblood MSQ.

The only toxic person here seems to be you.

Have you considered games geared towards you people? I know those games are free2play and near dead but you got Everquest. FFXI is still there you can get into four man parties to battle rats and bats and die and delevel. That might seem more your peoples speed.

You people are the reason why this thread exists.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ry.-Let-s-vent.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

You want to know the worst part about an easy dungeon or raid? When we have someone like yourself who makes an easy raid into one that everyone hates because you worship at the alter of the mechanics. In fact, in many raids there is always one person who goes the entire raid making fun of that type of person even if thankfully they are not in there by mocking the worshippers of the 'mechanics'

Cause we all know the mechanics saved your soul and do you accept the mechanics as your personal lord and savior?

This is not FFXI in fact Tanka and Hawaiian shirt guy were fired or forced to retire after ruining the original FFXIV. This game is played by casuals and geared towards casuals. You're the type of person who comes into a Jazz Club and demands they play country or rock.

People in this game take their time and experience the story. I was once accused by one of you people of buying my account after mentioning I have been playing since 2013 but haven't beaten Stormblood yet after having a bunch of level 80s. That's because I am taking my time and enjoying the sights. I beat ARR for the first time last year and had four level 80s before I beat Heavensward.

Did you know you can't do all class jobs unless you either a) unlocked that specific expansions progress within the MSQ b) Paid to raise your job level to the max.

Have you considered you might have party members who are still in the MSQ ARR storyline and can't unlock new abilities past 50? Same with the rest of the expansions. Once you get to Stormblood even if your max level or level 70 you still can't unlock new job quests unless you beaten certain parts of the stormblood MSQ.

The only toxic person here seems to be you.

Have you considered games geared towards you people? I know those games are free2play and near dead but you got Everquest. FFXI is still there you can get into four man parties to battle rats and bats and die and delevel. That might seem more your peoples speed.

You people are the reason why this thread exists.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ry.-Let-s-vent.

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Buddy, you got me wrong. I make a career out of disrespecting mechanics, not "worshipping" them. That's weird. Also maybe you should beat the MSQ, you know so you can experience the game. You are really limiting yourself. Then again, this response reads a little bit like a troll.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Buddy, you got me wrong. I make a career out of disrespecting mechanics, not "worshipping" them. That's weird. Also maybe you should beat the MSQ, you know so you can experience the game. You are really limiting yourself. Then again, this response reads a little bit like a troll.

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And this is why you are confused why people on the NN network do not approve or like you. You have to understand not everyone plays like you. I understand not everyone plays like me. I have played WoW since the beginning, but never got to level 60 until my favorite class was added to the game many years later. I would keep on deleting and remaking characters for years.

People play this game at their own speed even the developers have acknowledged this. This is why the developers make ARR's MSQ last two dungeons the scenes unskippable so new players would not get booted for wanting to watch the story unfold.

If you keep thinking everyone who does not think like you is a troll or not real, you will remain obvious as you are. Sometimes you have to understand sometimes its not other people who are the problem, but rather you. If you have the entire Novice Network against you.... you most likely are the problem and need to take time to look at yourself in the mirror to reflect.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

When the devs include hard dps checks and don't give the player base the proper tools for figuring it out, or really any kind of feedback system. ACT was born out of necessity in 14.

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Funny there was a time in MMO history where there was no parsers, no pretty markers over your head or the need for messages to tell you where to stand. Yet players still manage to figure things out and kill bosses, but if people want their hands held more so be it.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Funny there was a time in MMO history where there was no parsers, no pretty markers over your head or the need for messages to tell you where to stand. Yet players still manage to figure things out and kill bosses, but if people want their hands held more so be it.

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Those games probably had proper feedback systems though, or had their own tools developed in the absence of.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Those games probably had proper feedback systems though, or had their own tools developed in the absence of.

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Games like Everquest didnt have tools avalible at first now they do. But the tools it has are nothing compared to what FF14 gives players. I am old fashion gamer so for me its puzzling at times to see people struggle with figuring out basic things. Have we really reached a point where the game needs to tell players dont stand in flaming goo?

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Funny there was a time in MMO history where there was no parsers, no pretty markers over your head or the need for messages to tell you where to stand. Yet players still manage to figure things out and kill bosses, but if people want their hands held more so be it.

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This was kind of touched upon earlier on the thread, but it definitely seems like a problem with today’s generation. They don’t want to think for themselves. It’s like when the new demon souls remake came out and there was a whole spheal on people protesting for an easy mode for the game. It seems like not a lot of people want to put in any work into anything anymore.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

This was kind of touched upon earlier on the thread, but it definitely seems like a problem with today’s generation. They don’t want to think for themselves. It’s like when the new demon souls remake came out and there was a whole spheal on people protesting for an easy mode for the game. It seems like not a lot of people want to put in any work into anything anymore.

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Sure does feel like today generation I am not a against basic tutorials to get you on your feet. But when we get to the point players cant figure out that AOE ability is the most effective option against a pack of mobs!!! One cant help but start to question where is gaming and its players are going.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

:confused: Whatever happen to the days of figuring things out and not needing hand holding in every part of the game.

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It died quite a long time ago. In both single player and MMO's mind you. In the old days a single player game wasn't going to tell you every step to take, now most do, with maps and markers and a compass, etc.

This thread is so weird. Like OP is probably a troll, but ironically half the people in this thread are proving his point as well.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

And this is why you are confused why people on the NN network do not approve or like you. You have to understand not everyone plays like you. I understand not everyone plays like me. I have played WoW since the beginning, but never got to level 60 until my favorite class was added to the game many years later. I would keep on deleting and remaking characters for years.

People play this game at their own speed even the developers have acknowledged this. This is why the developers make ARR's MSQ last two dungeons the scenes unskippable so new players would not get booted for wanting to watch the story unfold.

If you keep thinking everyone who does not think like you is a troll or not real, you will remain obvious as you are. Sometimes you have to understand sometimes its not other people who are the problem, but rather you. If you have the entire Novice Network against you.... you most likely are the problem and need to take time to look at yourself in the mirror to reflect.

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The irony of your two posts is almost palpable.

This is not a single player game it is a multiplayer one where you rely on your teammates to get things done. You can play it like a single player game if you want but not everyone has the time nor the want to spend years on simple things that would normally be consumed in months.
This honestly read like someone who got mad the ending of Titanic was spoiled when it has already been out for years.

The msq of ffxiv is largely single player and it's fine if you want to take your time but if you're not going to respect my time in good faith as your peer, in a multiplayer game, then it really doesn't matter if everyone plays like me have fun getting kicked out of dungeons and taking months or years to complete them.

I may actually delve deeper into your two posts later if I have time but just know this you are on one of the extreme ends of the spectrum and it doesn't make you any better than the other end you seem to dislike so much.

Edit: Spelling.

I'm not really sure why it matters why a player may need some extra tools or an extra hand to help them learn the game. I mean, first off the "why" doesn't really impact you and, secondly, the whole point is just that they learn, right? I mean, that's what everyone has their panties in a knot over, isn't it? That the stupid, bad, terrible, awful bads and randoms just need to "get good." Surely it doesn't matter how they "get good" as long as they do. Unless, of course, that's not what the issue is.

Anyway, some people have mentioned that leechers and lazy players will still exist even with better teaching tools in game. Of course they will. You can lead a horse to water and all that. I mean, we have players in FF14 who literally buy their Ultimate clears. I would imagine most of them probably know how to play the game at least somewhat well but they're not good enough (or are just too lazy) to actually do the fight themselves properly so they buy the clear. That seems pretty lazy and leechlike to me and it's got nothing to do with running daily roulettes.

The point of teaching tools is to allow more players to actually grasp what the game is asking of them in a way that may be more comfortable to them than deciphering tool tips or reading a discord. It puts the tools right in front of their face and in their hands. It also means that, frankly, later on if they refuse to play properly they don't have anyone to blame (which, again, is supposed to be part of the issue raised in this thread, right?)

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well there's only two possible scenarios.

1: OP is greatly exaggerating how many horrendous players they encounter

2: There is a serious problem going on in NA

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Got it in one. I play in NA, have played for years, and do pretty much everything via DF. Are there truly terrible players? Of course, but it's extremely extremely rare to run into one. Most of the players are perfectly capable of playing their jobs and roles well enough to get through any of the casual content in the game without any real issue. They may not be amazing (and I know I'm not amazing) but they are no where near the complete disaster that some people in this thread seem to think are running rampant and destroying the game.

Page after page of words defending and covering for bad play and leeching. Is it really so hard to agree these types of players need to get off society's back?

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Page after page of words defending and covering for bad play and leeching. Is it really so hard to agree these types of players need to get off society's back?

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I mean, page after page of pointless whining and running in circles that won't get anything done. Is it really so hard to agree that SE won't be doing anything and that you need to see how you can resolve these issues for yourself?

It's not even worth trying to argue with you anymore about how pretty much no one in this thread is actually trying to defend this behavior or 'cover for' it, because you ignore it anyway.

SAdly for OP and those who agree with them... Everyone who plays FFXIV has already met Square's criteria to play... they bought the game and pay their sub. That's all Square is going to require of anyone to play the game, Yoshi-P has stated repeatedly he wants the game accessible to anyone who wants to play.

If you don't like the way someone plays in Duty Finder, don't use it, blacklist the person so they aren't paired with you, use party finder and only allow those whom you feel are up to your standards of play - these tools are readily available to you so you aren't bothered by someone's poor play.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

I mean, page after page of pointless whining and running in circles that won't get anything done. Is it really so hard to agree that SE won't be doing anything and that you need to see how you can resolve these issues for yourself?

It's not even worth trying to argue with you anymore about how pretty much no one in this thread is actually trying to defend this behavior or 'cover for' it, because you ignore it anyway.

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No one:

Caurcas: stop defending bad play and leeching! you're whats wrong with the game!

Thing is, as much as you might not like it, I am correct.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Thing is, as much as you might not like it, I am correct.

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Ha ha oh you~

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

I'm not really sure why it matters why a player may need some extra tools or an extra hand to help them learn the game. I mean, first off the "why" doesn't really impact you and, secondly, the whole point is just that they learn, right? I mean, that's what everyone has their panties in a knot over, isn't it? That the stupid, bad, terrible, awful bads and randoms just need to "get good." Surely it doesn't matter how they "get good" as long as they do. Unless, of course, that's not what the issue is.

Anyway, some people have mentioned that leechers and lazy players will still exist even with better teaching tools in game. Of course they will. You can lead a horse to water and all that. I mean, we have players in FF14 who literally buy their Ultimate clears. I would imagine most of them probably know how to play the game at least somewhat well but they're not good enough (or are just too lazy) to actually do the fight themselves properly so they buy the clear. That seems pretty lazy and leechlike to me and it's got nothing to do with running daily roulettes.

The point of teaching tools is to allow more players to actually grasp what the game is asking of them in a way that may be more comfortable to them than deciphering tool tips or reading a discord. It puts the tools right in front of their face and in their hands. It also means that, frankly, later on if they refuse to play properly they don't have anyone to blame (which, again, is supposed to be part of the issue raised in this thread, right?)



Got it in one. I play in NA, have played for years, and do pretty much everything via DF. Are there truly terrible players? Of course, but it's extremely extremely rare to run into one. Most of the players are perfectly capable of playing their jobs and roles well enough to get through any of the casual content in the game without any real issue. They may not be amazing (and I know I'm not amazing) but they are no where near the complete disaster that some people in this thread seem to think are running rampant and destroying the game.

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You're correct it honestly doesn't matter if people require more "tools" to get better as long as the information is given to them in a convenient manner.

Mostly completely unrelated to your post it is also important that the "tools" are not literal cheats. ACT especially with cacbot added on has shifted so much from just being a data collector to just being a program that actually plays the game for you.
Any further where we get to the point of it being able to highlight non-telegraphed AoE's like in that one twitter post It might be time just to ban the entire application so I don't have to deal with "friends" wiping my runs because their act stopped working.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

And this is why you are confused why people on the NN network do not approve or like you. You have to understand not everyone plays like you. I understand not everyone plays like me. I have played WoW since the beginning, but never got to level 60 until my favorite class was added to the game many years later. I would keep on deleting and remaking characters for years.

People play this game at their own speed even the developers have acknowledged this. This is why the developers make ARR's MSQ last two dungeons the scenes unskippable so new players would not get booted for wanting to watch the story unfold.

If you keep thinking everyone who does not think like you is a troll or not real, you will remain obvious as you are. Sometimes you have to understand sometimes its not other people who are the problem, but rather you. If you have the entire Novice Network against you.... you most likely are the problem and need to take time to look at yourself in the mirror to reflect.

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You're naive if you think the NN is some utopia where sprouts can always ask legit questions and get appropriate responses. There are good mentors and interactions between them and sprouts out there, but the majority of the time the NN is just a glorified world chat where morons with Burger King crowns think they are God's gift to the playerbase shitpost. Not to mention in this day and age where any modicum of advice is taken as a personal attack and people look at it as a chance to virtue signal to defend the player being 'attacked.' This is coming from a former mentor who has gotten the "yOu DoN't PaY My SuB" after merely suggesting that a DPS use their AoE on large wall to wall pulls.

As for others who say this sort of toxic casualism doesn't exist, you're trolling or you're extremely ignorant.

Playing since months and never experienced something like that. Sorry to disagree with you but FFXIV isn't a hard game by any means, you can solo the entire base game and all the expansions with just using the minimum effort. Raids,dungeons and trails on normal/hard are so easy to do ; for example take a look at the level 50/60/70 raids, some bosses can't even get to phase 2 because how quick they die.

Novice Network was one of the best experiences so far the channel feels so alive and people very helpful much more than any FC.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Playing since months and never experienced something like that. Sorry to disagree with you but FFXIV isn't a hard game by any means, you can solo the entire base game and all the expansions with just using the minimum effort. Raids,dungeons and trails on normal/hard are so easy to do ; for example take a look at the level 50/60/70 raids, some bosses can't even get to phase 2 because how quick they die.

Novice Network was one of the best experiences so far the channel feels so alive and people very helpful much more than any FC.

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Yeah XIV is really easy, but while difficulty is an issue (namely, it being too easy), the topic is bringing attention to people who do things that are clearly very detrimental to a run and people who defend them or enable their abuse towards those who called them out. Over 8.5k hours this expac here and I've seen it way too much.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Over 8.5k hours this expac here and

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Wait... you've logged over 354 days worth of playtime during this expac???

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Wait... you've logged over 354 days worth of playtime during this expac???

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Yes I did.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Wait... you've logged over 354 days worth of playtime during this expac???

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Dude is counting leaving his character logged on 24/7 AFK as playtime lol

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Dude is counting leaving his character logged on 24/7 AFK as playtime lol

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I'm glad you've been here next to me the whole time to see what I'm up to when I'm logged in game.

Toxicity,laziness and trolling exists on both sides of the spectrum. Does not matter if your Hardcore or casual both types of players are capable and guilty. Tutorials also dont do as much good as they could do when you got vets engaging the very bad habbits you are trying to prevent..