5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Yes, of course. It's not rocket science. The thing is, it's basically always been that way. Support jobs have always done less raw damage than damage dealing jobs. Only now it's a "problem" because it's more apparent, or something.

So the only solution is to get rid of support jobs and just have every DD at 15k DPS (or whatever arbitrary number you want to input). You can't have support jobs deal as much damage as raw dps jobs, because then they would boost each other and exclude the raw dps jobs eventually. Even so, if all the jobs then do more base DPS, SE simply designs bosses to have more HP. It's a horizontal shift that doesn't actually grow into anything new or interesting.

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but it has not allways been that way, thats exactly the point, yes "support jobs" have allways dealt less raw damage, that is true, but this isn't about raw damage, this is about raid dps, the last time bard was 10% below the highest job in "raw damage" bard still had 3 dps buffs instead off one, 3, and back than it was 10% below in raw dps, now it is 10% below in raid dps, so raw dps+buffs allready included, bard literally was as far below the highest dps as it is now (percentage wise) before even a single out of 3 group dps buffs were accounted for. Of the 3 buffs only one is left and even including that the gap is as big as it was during alphascape without that last remaining buff, that has nothing to do with it being "more appearent" or whatever, the gap is literally more than twice as big if you include the buffs

Also who says "support jobs " (which really, "support" gets vastly overestimated at this point, bard dps support was gutted, mch has no dps support left at all) should do the same raw damage than a "pure" dps ? what you say is "if they do the same raw damage they will overtake the pure dps in raid damage so no one will take them" guess what ? that whole argument can be boiled down to "if they do more raid damage no one will take the "pure" classes. so following that logic why should you right now take the "support" jobs if even with their support they do less damage than the pure classes ? and not just "a bit less" but a lot ? fact of the matter is , some combination will allways be meta, no matter what, and their will never be perfect balance, both things are fine, that does not mean that a 10% dropoff from the top to the literal middle of the pack is fine

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I mean, you were the one railing on RDM. So I'm not sure how that indicates some problem of my own. I don't have any problem with jobs as long as the person playing it does so at an acceptable level and isn't a detriment to the group. If you want to take 4 BLM, go for it, but everyone else in the group will do less damage as a result. That's balanced? Or not balanced? Perhaps someone should settle on a proper definition of balance to begin with.

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Usually when someone starts referring to things as "Chad ____" in some unironic way it indicates some level of insecurity, but anyways.

Yes, I am "railing on RDM" but not because they choose to play that job, if anything, I love rdm and find it a fun job to play, the issue is that it's currently the second weakest job, and by a big margin. Also, balanced means that there shouldn't be much of a dps difference depending on your job choice assuming the same item level, aka it shouldn't matter if you're playing dancer or blm, your total contribution to the raid should be around the same, give or take a few hundred dps.

Also, I never mentioned taking 4 black mages, aren't you the one that mentioned taking 4 monks?

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

but it has not allways been that way, thats exactly the point, yes "support jobs" have allways dealt less raw damage, that is true, but this isn't about raw damage, this is about raid dps, the last time bard was 10% below the highest job in "raw damage" bard still had 3 dps buffs instead off one, 3, and back than it was 10% below in raw dps, now it is 10% below in raid dps, so raw dps+buffs allready included, bard literally was as far below the highest dps as it is now (percentage wise) before even a single out of 3 group dps buffs were accounted for. Of the 3 buffs only one is left and even including that the gap is as big as it was during alphascape without that last remaining buff, that has nothing to do with it being "more appearent" or whatever, the gap is literally more than twice as big if you include the buffs

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Why are you comparing a support job's output to a raw damage jobs output? There's nothing saying that personal damage + raid damage of a support job has to equal the personal + raid damage of a "top" job. That's setting up an inherent bias which is what SE tried to move away from. So what you're actually saying is that they were successful.

If you want to use bard as an example, then what was wrong with MCH? Why did it suffer in both personal in raid contributions compared to BRD for 2 expansions? So they made MCH deal more damage than BRD, which it does now. And Dancer is beneath both accordingly. Are you trying to say that's not how it should be (given our current situation)?

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Usually when someone starts referring to things as "Chad ____" in some unironic way it indicates some level of insecurity, but anyways.

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Are you stereotyping my stereotype? Lol

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Also, balanced means that there shouldn't be much of a dps difference depending on your job choice assuming the same item level, aka it shouldn't matter if you're playing dancer or blm, your total contribution to the raid should be around the same, give or take a few hundred dps.

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And my whole point in commenting on this thread is that you can't make those types of generalizations honestly. A dancer isn't going to have as high of raid contribution if there are only 3 other dancers in the group. A Black Mage isn't going to have as high of damage output when there are 3 other BLM providing 0 support for it. 4 BLM, 4 MNK, 4 SAM, it doesn't matter they are all the same logical conclusion of "you should just roll BLM and deal more damage for your group". They aren't going to reach their individual potential, nor contribute to the potential of the group, and that's pretty evident considering NO ONE advocates for building a group around such a comp. What you're suggesting is incredibly difficult to pull off, how are you going to calculate the proper contribution of any job in when any given comp can change it's contribution accordingly? All that's left is throwing your hands in the air and deleting support abilities to balance everything against one another's raw damage only.

I'm not saying they couldn't try to tweak 1-2% here or there to get a tighter spread. But there are limitations and considerations to maintain and the current state of everything pretty much being within 10% range is not bad.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Why are you comparing a support job's output to a raw damage jobs output? There's nothing saying that personal damage + raid damage of a support job has to equal the personal + raid damage of a "top" job. That's setting up an inherent bias which is what SE tried to move away from. So what you're actually saying is that they were successful.

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Because rDPS is a function of their personal, unboosted DPS multiplied by a factor determined by their overall DPS contribution to the raid via buffs. This isn't like previous expansions where FFlogs only had a function of raw DPS, which was literally just the number your job put out averaged over a fight; a number that didn't come close to telling the whole story (DRG was the bottom DPS by 12% but everyone knows it was effectively the strongest DPS in a ranged composition). Unlike previous iterations, comparing Samurai and Ninja rDPS is a fair comparison because it values their overall contribution, and is an infinitely more accurate value. The weakest DPS job in terms of rDPS should be within 5% (arbitrary value based on personal opinion) of the top contributing job, and each job within a role should be tiered against each other based on (another arbitrary value) their non-dps utility and ease of play. For example, if 95% Red Mage was rated against a 95% Black Mage, the Red Mage should be doing at worst 5% less damage on a training dummy; ensuring at the optimal level of play that a Black Mage will still do more damage, but Red Mage is still an attractive option because it brings an easy resurrection (good for prog) and has a smaller skill gap. Using Black Mage as a control in this case, it would mean that if BLM is putting out 14,300 against a training dummy, then Red Mage should be putting out 13,585 when all other factors are controlled for.

Obviously it still gets more complex than that because I'm not really factoring in the skill gap between the two jobs, but the idea is that the jobs should at least be close enough together where if a group picked the four worst DPS jobs in the game they should have barely more trouble clearing progression when compared to the four strongest jobs.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Why are you comparing a support job's output to a raw damage jobs output? There's nothing saying that personal damage + raid damage of a support job has to equal the personal + raid damage of a "top" job. That's setting up an inherent bias which is what SE tried to move away from. So what you're actually saying is that they were successful.

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what support ? the only support bard has is damage, paean which works on basically nothing in a raid setting right now and natures minne , which is a single target mantra, if you want to count troubadour than guess what ? casters have addle, which works on 90% off all tankbusters and raidwides at half the cooldown, if anything i would trade you troubadour for addle 7 days of the week so again, what support ? the skill that does work on absolutely nothing in a raid or the single target mantra ?, there is no freaking support, every class has one or two highly situational skills that may come in handy once in a blue moon, some classes more than others, but if natures minne is "support" than addle could easily count twice for troubadour considering nearly everything worthwhile has been magic damage for like 8 raid tiers.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

If you want to use bard as an example, then what was wrong with MCH? Why did it suffer in both personal in raid contributions compared to BRD for 2 expansions? So they made MCH deal more damage than BRD, which it does now. And Dancer is beneath both accordingly. Are you trying to say that's not how it should be (given our current situation)?

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also this is like the perfect example of not knowing what you are talking about sorry but what was wrong with machinist ? it suffered in raid (not personal, mch has been outdps'ing bard in personal contribution in like forever) because the one time it was not a clunky mess it was simply to weak as bard had way better raidbuffs, which is why it should have been buffed sooner rather than later, however the differences between bard and mch (as you imply mch had to suffer because of bard) than wheren't nearly as bad as what we have now comparing the melees+blm to every single ranged. also mch doing more damage than bard ? mch and bard are within 1,5% raid contribution on basically all percentiles, with the difference actualy getting smaller on higher percentiles. there is not a single situation where a bard doing 5% better would not out dps (in raid dps, not personal) a mch, compared to the situation where classes have to do 70-80% percentiles to beat out 30% blackmages

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Why are you comparing a support job's output to a raw damage jobs output? There's nothing saying that personal damage + raid damage of a support job has to equal the personal + raid damage of a "top" job. That's setting up an inherent bias which is what SE tried to move away from. So what you're actually saying is that they were successful.

If you want to use bard as an example, then what was wrong with MCH? Why did it suffer in both personal in raid contributions compared to BRD for 2 expansions? So they made MCH deal more damage than BRD, which it does now. And Dancer is beneath both accordingly. Are you trying to say that's not how it should be (given our current situation)?



Are you stereotyping my stereotype? Lol



And my whole point in commenting on this thread is that you can't make those types of generalizations honestly. A dancer isn't going to have as high of raid contribution if there are only 3 other dancers in the group. A Black Mage isn't going to have as high of damage output when there are 3 other BLM providing 0 support for it. 4 BLM, 4 MNK, 4 SAM, it doesn't matter they are all the same logical conclusion of "you should just roll BLM and deal more damage for your group". They aren't going to reach their individual potential, nor contribute to the potential of the group, and that's pretty evident considering NO ONE advocates for building a group around such a comp. What you're suggesting is incredibly difficult to pull off, how are you going to calculate the proper contribution of any job in when any given comp can change it's contribution accordingly? All that's left is throwing your hands in the air and deleting support abilities to balance everything against one another's raw damage only.

I'm not saying they couldn't try to tweak 1-2% here or there to get a tighter spread. But there are limitations and considerations to maintain and the current state of everything pretty much being within 10% range is not bad.

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Except these numbers are based off of the 95th and 99th percentile where classes get almost as good as they can get, and that includes extra damage from buffing party members.

Heck let's push these jobs to the absolute highest they can go and compare jobs at their maximum skill level.

At the max level a dancer does 13,798 rdps on Eden savage while a black mage does 15,696 rdps. Of course there's variation between jobs at different skill levels, however, when you have people of similar skill playing their job at the maximum level between the highest dps and lowest dps jobs, there's a difference of over 1800 rdps.

Edit: It's kind of a shame that machinist is the lowest rdps job when it's pushed to the brink of what it's capable of though, considering they were third highest at the start of shb.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Edit: It's kind of a shame that machinist is the lowest rdps job when it's pushed to the brink of what it's capable of though, considering they were third highest at the start of shb.

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It's also entirely unsurprising. The reason nobody uses absolute maximum potential is because you've gone past the realm of personal skill and are now in the realm of catering, RNG, and formerly padding. Theoretically Dancer should do more damage at its absolute maximum because it has RNG in its rotation, and its DPS support is also RNG.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

It's also entirely unsurprising. The reason nobody uses absolute maximum potential is because you've gone past the realm of personal skill and are now in the realm of catering, RNG, and formerly padding. Theoretically Dancer should do more damage at its absolute maximum because it has RNG in its rotation, and its DPS support is also RNG.

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You do have a point there, and it's honestly not that hard to play machinist perfectly, and semi-perfect play isn't too hard either. Still, that being said, for a selfish dps it should be much higher than it is now.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

You do have a point there, and it's honestly not that hard to play machinist perfectly, and semi-perfect play isn't too hard either. Still, that being said, for a selfish dps it should be much higher than it is now.

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"SE, what are you thinking, no one will play Bard now if Machinist just does more damage!"

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Edit: It's kind of a shame that machinist is the lowest rdps job when it's pushed to the brink of what it's capable of though, considering they were third highest at the start of shb.

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This is a major assumption which is the root of our difference of opinion on the data. There are intangible aspects that can't be accounted for (particularly when looking at "max"). In the comparison of BRD vs MCH you have to consider that MCH was majorly reworked this expansion. This contributed to fallout, and even include some of the top players of this job. You also have less people playing MCH than BRD overall, which combined with the first means that there is a real chance that there are simply more skilled players playing BRD (or DNC) than playing MCH. And more high-end groups taking them for their raid contribution (just getting a faster kill greatly impacts damage output, and kill time is not dependent simply on the output of one job). Secondly you have to account for fight design. In the first fight in particular there are many disconnects which could influence or dictate how you use various abilities. Perhaps you have to hold your burst, or the jump happens in the middle of your burst - it's different for each job. If cooldowns align nice and neat, then we are comparing something more akin to a dummy fight - say Voidwalker which is pure uptime - which MCH edges out BRD. And thirdly you have to consider the comp. For example, a BRD with GNB/DRK/PLD will have a higher contribution than in a comp with a WAR which doesn't benefit as much from Battle Voice. A RDM get's more contribution from Trick Attack than it does from Brotherhood, yet you're almost certain to have a monk in the group compared to ninja right now, so on and so on. Not all comps are equal, and quite frankly, I'm not even sure that the numbers displayed on fflogs are even the same characters. (ie, is the highest adps the same player that also has the highest rdps? Unknown, it could be 2 totally different players/groups/comps)