Why the hate with endgame fights?

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When you make a claim like that, and say defeating Savage is easy (yes, you did, implicitly, by saying it's not an achievement), people are going to want to see you back that up.

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I never said it was easy, i said it wasn't an achievement. That is I don't value people who beat it any more highly than others. and yeah, ill back it up. But then I don't value people who make me run through hoops much either.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

But a lot of you don't understand casual content at all. Not enough to understand what increasing difficulty means. I know what I need to do when I get into savage, and Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement. But I don't think you get what making stuff harder means to the playerbase.

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So basically, you ignored everything I said back there right?

The problem isn't that we don't understand casual content. It's that you don't understand or are simply ignoring what we are saying.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

My anger is mostly because of three things.

-bad endgame content focusing on one hit kills and repeating single boss fights over and over.
-how stupid the community is about wanting stuff harder and harder despite how much that failed in HW.
-SE not changing the formula in one bit from HW in terms of endgame content.

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I'm not sure if you realise, but the bit in bold is exactly what we are arguing for as well.

You go on to talk about people struggling even in Shinryu story mode. Why do you think that is? I don't think it's because it's too hard, because frankly it isn't. IMHO I think it's because there's absolutely nothing else in the current endgame leading up to that to prepare them for it. This step up in difficulty is even more apparent once you go up to Shinryu EX. This has been the case since HW (As you've observed) and this is why we are kicking off about this as well.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

if you want to seriously think about this, take one dungeon boss 60 and up, and tell me how you will make it harder. Like take the mol at the end of bardem's mettle. How will you make him gradually harder?

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Once again, you're not listening to anything we say are you?

Let me try and put this in a manner in which you might actually take note:

LEVELING DUNGEON BOSSES ARE *NOT* THE PROBLEM

EXPERT ROULETTE DUNGEONS BOSSES *ARE* THE PROBLEM

/cough, I hate shouting, it's so rude, but sometimes a Lala's got to do what a Lala's got to do =(

Your example of the boss at the end of Bardam's is a decent boss and you know it, thus why you used it as an example to try and further your agenda. It's dangerous both through decent mechanics and solid damage output that you can't really trivialise it through gear thanks to level sync. This is not a boss that anyone here is suggesting needs to be tuned, so you can stop trying to use that as an extreme example for your silly little forum games already thanks.

Now for a comparison, lets look at the bosses in Kugane Castle. It takes multiple failures coupled with a sleeping healer before there's any risk of anyone dieing. The only way I've seen anyone die in a manner that a simple Regen couldn't keep them alive through everything is on the Ninja boss with the tile flip move, it is possible to get hit by both tile flips and that will kill you. But that's also quite an impressive (and amusing) trick to pull off, hardly a fair example.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

No one seems to get this. The only way you can make a mechanic hard is if failing it kills you, or if it will kill the whole party unless quick action is done. So when people talk about increasing difficulty, they tend to just be abstract about it.

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It's quotes like this that make me believe that you literally have no grasp on what you are talking about.

Hang on, let me get the 72pt bold marker out again, I think it's needed here:

MAKE THE MECHANIC *EASIER* TO ACHIEVE BUT ALSO MORE PUNISHING WHEN YOU FAIL IT

Believe it or not, there's actually more to an encounter's difficulty than how much raw damage it throws at you. For example, if we take Hashmal's extreme edge attack and simply make the cast time several seconds slower, it would become noticeably easier despite still being close to a one shot. The endgame in ARR was far more simplistic than what we have now, it certainly wasn't a pushover by any stretch. Titan HM and Susano EX are similarly challenging encounters when you consider how they were when they were relevant fresh content. One is simplistic but highly punishing, the other is far more complex but also much more forgiving at the same time.

This same mentality has carried over to dungeons in an even more extreme manner. Have you ever seen the WaterPony boss at the start of Skalla done entirely cleanly with no debuffs getting thrown around? I'm fairly certain I haven't. It's actually pretty challenging for everyone to place their puddle and position their tether in a manner that they're not going to hit themselves or the rest of the group. But then it just doesn't matter so very few people bother with it. It's pretty routine to see 5-6+ debuff stacks and it just doesn't do enough for anyone to care.

Until you grasp the various nuances of encounter design, then I'm afraid your knee jerk comments and cherry picked examples hold no water with me.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I never said it was easy, i said it wasn't an achievement. That is I don't value people who beat it any more highly than others. and yeah, ill back it up. But then I don't value people who make me run through hoops much either.

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I'll look forward to seeing the log.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

It certainly won't prepare all players for extreme fights, but it does reinforce the basic idea of paying attention to what you're doing.

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I can agree with this. I want harder and more interesting dungeons too, but not for the idea that it would improve players. Just for the reason that it would be fun and encourage developing different kinds of skills than boss fights do, such as knowing when and what to interrupt/stun and put to sleep or kiting and LoS pulling. If MSQ dungeons stayed easier but each new optional hard mode dungeon was actually hard, we would have a good balance of challenge and still letting all kinds of players continue the story. A difficult Aurum Vale HM would be first on my dungeon wish list.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I never said it was easy, i said it wasn't an achievement. That is I don't value people who beat it any more highly than others. and yeah, ill back it up. But then I don't value people who make me run through hoops much either.

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In what you quoted, I specifically stated why saying "it's not an achievement" is saying it's easy. Whether or not you value an achievement or the people who achieve it is one thing: I don't value the Oscars, or the Olympics, but both are still achievements. I cannot say receiving a Golden Globe is not an achievement, because I know it is a road not everybody can travel.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This same mentality has carried over to dungeons in an even more extreme manner. Have you ever seen the WaterPony boss at the start of Skalla done entirely cleanly with no debuffs getting thrown around? I'm fairly certain I haven't. It's actually pretty challenging for everyone to place their puddle and position their tether in a manner that they're not going to hit themselves or the rest of the group. But then it just doesn't matter so very few people bother with it. It's pretty routine to see 5-6+ debuff stacks and it just doesn't do enough for anyone to care.

Until you grasp the various nuances of encounter design, then I'm afraid your knee jerk comments and cherry picked examples hold no water with me.

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As someone that farmed Skalla for ages, I can attest to this. I never bothered to do that fight correctly because I never died no matter what I did. It's faceroll and not punishing.

yes ive done skalla cleanly, the only issue is that the boss jumps to a random side and screws up placement. No, i dont see people in it with five stacks, or who power through it. No, if you make hashmal slower it doesn't help, any more than the already slow one-hit mechanics help apparently, and there's a lot of them. Nid hards divebomb is an example (and its inspiration in stone vigil). and no, expert roulette doesn't matter, its possible to ignore it completely because its only real reward is tomes; its the same reason why hall of the novice is ignored, the rewards aren't vital and the content isn't forced. you can force trials, though. I suggested the mol mostly because its already in the game and apparently it isnt enough since you can go beat him and not know how to do the stuff in endgame you think people don't know how to do.

You're saying "expert roulette needs to be harder!" while turning around and saying nerfed forms of what existing casual content are fine to make it harder with. Which makes no sense to me. I mean, if you view the leveling experience up to shin as being easy, it already has stuff like this, and its not teaching anyone apparently.

The Skalla pony actively discourages you from dodging the puddles because dps gcd's are more valuable than the minimal extra healing needed for the extra damage. How I would change it? Make the puddles smaller and dot heavier. And make the water orb apply a damage down debuff.

More punish, more fair

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

yes ive done skalla cleanly, the only issue is that the boss jumps to a random side and screws up placement. No, i dont see people in it with five stacks

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I don't believe you, his random jump is part of the mechanic, you failed because you uh, failed, not because he jumped to a random side. I suspect you don't see people with five stacks because you're simply not looking. But having your eyes firmly shut seems to be a reoccurring theme here so meh.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

No, if you make hashmal slower it doesn't help, any more than the already slow one-hit mechanics help apparently, and there's a lot of them.

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Rubbish. Absolute drivel. I see multiple people on every single last Hashmal recording that I've got that are running in the right direction for extreme edge but didn't quite make it for whatever reason. By giving them a few extra seconds, a higher percentage of people would be able to consistently survive thus making the mechanic easier by virtue. Storymode Nid is precisely the same deal, it's even more clearly telegraphed, just some people don't have the awareness or mechanical skill to reliably survive it. Giving these people a larger window to get clear would make it easier for them. I'm really not sure how you can argue against this TBH.

Bonus question, you say there's a lot of other one-hit mechanics in Hashmal, name them. I can think of 2 that are truly one-hits. That's not really a lot is it?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

expert roulette doesn't matter, its possible to ignore it completely because its only real reward is tomes

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Expert Roulette DOES matter because it's the first taste people get of the end game in FFXIV and frankly, it tastes like stale complacency and disappointment if you ask me. The reason people tend not to bother is because there are far more stimulating ways to get tomes (like just about every other alternative).

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I suggested the mol mostly because its already in the game and apparently it isnt enough since you can go beat him and not know how to do the stuff in endgame you think people don't know how to do.

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You suggested the mol because it makes your point look good, don't even bother trying to lie to me. Would your point stand if you used Yojimbo as a reference? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I don't believe you, his random jump is part of the mechanic, you failed because you uh, failed, not because he jumped to a random side. I suspect you don't see people with five stacks because you're simply not looking.

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I heal expert roulette. Its only a GCD penalty if you are melee, I'm guessing. As healer or ranged, i drop the puddle in a corner and do fine. Most melee don't power through it any more than they take every single non fatal hit they can in a dungeon; we're trained to dodge.

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Rubbish. Absolute drivel. I see multiple people on every single last Hashmal recording that I've got that are running in the right direction for extreme edge but didn't quite make it for whatever reason. By giving them a few extra seconds, a higher percentage of people would be able to consistently survive thus making the mechanic easier by virtue. Storymode Nid is precisely the same deal, it's even more clearly telegraphed, just some people don't have the awareness or mechanical skill to reliably survive it. Giving these people a larger window to get clear would make it easier for them. I'm really not sure how you can argue against this TBH.

Bonus question, you say there's a lot of other one-hit mechanics in Hashmal, name them. I can think of 2 that are truly one-hits. That's not really a lot is it?

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Look, if current endgame, including hashmal, is not teaching people to do well, why is puttng an easier form of him in expert any help? They already do it and succeed or fail. It doesn't teach them anything they don't already know. the made hashmal harder because dodges in ex trials are hard or harder than him, he is the bridging stuff you want.

Hashmal can one hit with his rush, his red orbs, his tower drops, his hammer drops, and can if someone misses a dust orb if you are closer to ilvl 310 on dps or heals. Others can survive it, but i am paranoid about people bein at full health and shielded after the stack then.

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You suggested the mol because it makes your point look good, don't even bother trying to lie to me. Would your point stand if you used Yojimbo as a reference? I don't think so.

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No, it was the first thing to come to mind as a post 60 boss. Yojimbo is different because he is hamstrung by the number of players and mechanics. You can't make yojimbo harder with his existing mechanics; he'd need to be retrofit completely because even with four dragon adds and three rounds of coins, players pick them all up. You'd have to set wipe potential at 50 or 60 coins, and triple the number of coin drops while adding paralyze or stun to daigoro to make it a challenge.

It's not all that different. Serously think about how he can be made harder, without being too hard. The antitower last boss is similar, the mechanic design is just too static to really make hard.

I can't do a thoroughly thought out post right now because mobile limitations (but I will come back to this thread later and write out my thoughts to things), but the fact that you can outright fail Yojimbo's coin mechanic and only take 16,000 damage means that the mechanic is poorly designed.

It doesn't teach players to execute it correctly; it teaches them: "I can completely ignore this mechanic and suffer very little for it". Such a mindset is not good to have, because then people go into Savage or Extremes or even the 24-mans with this mindset of "I don't have to actually execute mechanics because they don't punish me for failing". Then, naturally after they fail a mechanic, they whine about the content "is too hard" and should be brought down.

I had more HP in Heavensward than Yojimbo's coin mechanic does to me at level 70 in full 290 gear. I shouldn't feel more challenged by the bosses in Doma Castle or Bardam's Mettle or even Aurum Vale than supposed "expert dungeon" bosses. When a DPS can reliably tank the bosses in "expert dungeons", there's an issue there.