When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

*Passes Tiggy a silver bullet*

Sorry OP, your thread got hijacked ^^;.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

In another thread you literally called me a clear seller. You can't keep saying these things acting like you aren't accusing people with your generalizations. ...

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Go find that post. I only said said you like to play devil's advocate for the clear sellers. And time and time again you've shown you want to be on the side of clear sellers, it does NOT matter if you sold clears or not.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

....There is a right and a wrong place for your soapbox...

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Based on the vehement angry reaction to a simple message of inclusiveness, where I am only asking people try to empathize and player together and help each other out, I would say this is very much the right place. Because seeing how all the verbal abuse is being hurled at new and newer players and making up false accusations about them, this is the very place I need to set the record straight. And this really a simple thing, it is NO OK to insult other players.

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Yep, some dud of a silver bullet.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

*Passes Tiggy a silver bullet*..

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

... For starters, you can start with shedding the shameless clear seller attitude ....

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And this was clearly stated indicating the position and flawed ethics:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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While I've never been a part of a sold run I definitely understand where they come from. ... If they put a price on their time and someone is willing to pay it then it's non of your business what so ever..

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Making false representation about stuff I said and at the same time pretending to forget what was written. Sorry the evidence is there plain as day to see.

Ghishlain, thanks I think that shows what I'm talking about nicely.

Nyaruko, make your own thread. I will no longer engage you here as this is entirely off topic for this thread. If you want to talk about this and make a point of it so badly then make a thread where that is the actual topic.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Make your own thread. I will no longer engage you here.

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You can NOT find that post. So I've never said you are a clear seller. The people who are clear sellers proudly and shameless say so themselves. I do NOT need to edit or go out of my way to say such obvious things.

The thing is, it not the experienced raiders the need defending. They got all the tools, access, etc. to do whatever they wish. It is the new, newer, returning, latecomer players that need opportunity to learn to and progress. It is NOT OK to be dissing them. If you can help them learn and wipe 10 times with them then do that, if you can do more then that is even better. If you tire of it, vote abandon and move on, but do NOT use the forums to verbally abuse them.

You told me..

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

For starters, you can start with shedding the shameless clear seller attitude like this:

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Then quote BobtheBlackMage as if it was something I said.

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Originally Posted by BobtheBlackMage

If someone is willing to pay as an incentive to take them through content, I'm willing to make the exchange.

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You did what you did and people saw you do it. Stop it. Go make your own thread to talk about it.

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Originally Posted by BobtheBlackMage

If you can help them learn and wipe 10 times with them then do that, if you can do more then that is even better. If you tire of it, vote abandon and move on, but do NOT use the forums to verbally abuse them.

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A) I've never vote abandoned or quit on a group.
B) I help people learn fights all the time normally up until the timer runs out.
C) I've NEVER verbally abused someone about their progress either on this forum or in game.

Stop your accusations and generalizations. You don't know me. You don't know all raiders. Stop it.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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Then quote BobtheBlackMage as if it was something I said.

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Because it sounds almost exactly like what you said:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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While I've never been a part of a sold run I definitely understand where they come from. ... If they put a price on their time and someone is willing to pay it then it's non of your business what so ever..

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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Stop your accusations and generalizations. ..

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There is no accusation. I am only stating what I observer and the generalizations derived from it. You want to tell me that there are no threads and posts disparaging new players, newbies, other players they like to label as "bad"? I wouldn't even want to call any players bad. I would have to be deliberatley blind to not see those. If the generalization do NOT apply to you, then it does NOT, you are not part of the generalization, but strangely enough you want to throw your lot in with them. But I am not going stop fending off the unfair accusations, generalizations, and verbal abuse being directed at the vast majority of the players.

Example from this thread alone, from a well known clear seller:

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

You failed at networking with competent players.

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Implying that 99% of the player base who haven't touched FCoB is incompetent and all our friends are equally so. Why should the rest of us have to take insults like this in silence?

Understanding why someone does something and the reasoning behind it , and suggesting you have no business telling people what to do is not the same as what Bob said. Any reasonable person, and even those in that thread, can understand that. Striving for understanding of something does not mean you inherit the qualities of it. Believing that you don't have a right to tell anyone how to play doesn't make me instantly supportive of the actions either. I simply think you should mind your own business and leave people alone. Those clear sellers don't prevent anyone from working on the turns. They don't stop anyone from grabbing friends, queuing up, and working on it until they get a win. If you want to down T5 so bad then people should spent less time fuming about clear sellers and more time in T5 working on it. There are not enough people in the game for clear sellers to prohibit you from completing this content. The only thing preventing people (in no specific importance or order) is some combination of lack of time, lack of dedication dedication, and finding 7 competent people to assist you.

I am a raider. You generalize actions to all raiders, therefore you mean me, all the other nice raiders I know, and more. It doesn't matter if your specific statement doesn't represent me for me to find it offensive because it targets raiders which is a group I most definitely identify with. That's no different than making a blanket racist statement and then looking over at your friend who is a member of that race and saying "sorry, I didn't mean you though bro." It's still greatly offensive. The real solution would be for you to fix your rhetoric and to stop referring to all raiders collectively. Say "Some of the more malicious raiders" instead of the collective "raiders" or something to that effect. It's not that hard to prevent yourself from being offensive to an overly large group of people that don't all represent the specific demographic you're talking about. The way you're doing it is no better than racism. Showing prejudice and disdain for an entire group of people based on the actions and behaviors from a subset of them.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Implying that 99% of the player base who haven't touched FCoB is incompetent and all our friends are equally so. Why should the rest of us have to take insults like this in silence?

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Despite how ridiculously out of context that quote is, that player who said it doesn't represent all raiders. A point I've been trying to get across to you from the beginning. Pointing out any one bad player doesn't make the whole group bad just as no good player makes the whole group good. Your quote only makes your argument look more petty and short sighted.

Even despite that specific example the advice to "Make more friends" and "become a member of more communities" is sound. It's good advice for any new player to any MMO in existence, and will lead to wins with enough determination.

*drops mic and walks out*

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

.... That's no different than making a blanket racist statement and then looking over at your friend who is a member of that race and saying "sorry, I didn't mean you though bro." It's still greatly offensive. ...

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I don't make racist remarks or off-color jokes ever. I am the one odd minority in group setting more often than not given the current existing U.S. demographics. And I know that one does NOT make the group.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Pointing out any one bad player doesn't make the whole group bad just as no good player makes the whole group good.

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But that doesn't mean you let those off-color jokes slip and let the norm continue as it is. That is why you call out the one that behaving badly. But somehow that gets turned into generalization? Fact is this kind of hatred and contempt for new/newer players the so called "need to get good" is all too common on these forums. If it feels like generalization, is because by the de facto environment that exist too much of this is going on already, and this need correcting.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

The RMT and clear sellers are probably in cahoots, but of course if they are smart they will have some sort of gil laundering scheme so they do NOT get their important accounts banned, and it makes it all the harder to any of us to really make the proof stick.

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I think this just kinda solidifies the mounting and damning evidence of...silliness, that follows you. While I won't disagree that there probably is one or two FCs might be doing it with RMTs, cutting a bloody swathe and accusing all clear sellers of illegal RMT activity in the game is quite impressive.

...that seems quite on par for course for you, honestly.

And if you want further evidence of hypocrisy:

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

I do NOT go up to tell them to shut up even if I don't agree with them all the time.

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Funny, you seem to want go to all the clear sellers and shut them up, claiming they're on PF 24/7, etc.

...and yes, I am intentionally taking that one statement completely outta context. Annoying, isn't it? ~.^

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Again, sorry for massive derail OP/

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