Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Iirc, isn't ruin worse potency than stone?

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Ruin has a potency of 80.
Stone has a potency of 140.

So, yes.

NEVER running leveing with my buddy as a healer again. I went as a healer to get an insta-queue (yay) and he was a lv 58 blm.

It was Sohm al! FU--

"Oh well, a bit longer but it'll be a piece of cake."

War does a mega pull in the first plant room. Now, I'm used to this, so I was burning my cd's and barfing HoTs...but for some reason...he was extra squishy. Not to mention he had ZERO control over his pulls at all. Eventually his hp dropped faster than I could heal and we all died. That's when my friend said "LOL HIS GEAR" in fc chat and i held my breath.

He had his job gear on, ironworks, and hero rings. 30/10 wanted to cry.

But that's not even the funny part. I was about fed up with carrying bad tanks. Y'know, the ones who already have a lvl 60 tank, but still finds it appropriate to wear paper gear to HW dungeons. So, I made a plan to kick him so my buddy and I could drop and re-queue without the penalty. I was going to queue as my tank and he was still going to go as blm. cool.

The buttface, my friend, didnt even press "yes" to kick him. He said "it was so funny I hit no". It was the other, quiet dps.

Got a couple of stories from my first attempt at raiding.

My first time in A10, we get to the boss and I hash out with the other Scholar who'll take care of the MT so we don't overwrite Adlos and such. Now this being my first run, I have no clue what exactly had happened but somewhere between 80% and 60% we hit some bad mechanics. I and a few of the DPS fell, then I was rezzed, then my co-healer died and released before I had enough MP to return the favour. The rest of the fight I'm screaming internally trying to keep health bars and MP from hitting 0 while learning mechanics by trial and error. Thankfully the PLD took notice and threw out Clemency whenever he could. I jokingly blew up at the other SCH for throwing me into the fire my first time but we didn't wipe so no harm done.

A12 the first time; nothing special happened aside from wiping a lot (me mostly) but the group stuck together and offered advice and encouragement, which was pleasant enough to mention.

Running A9 for the second time; I got dumped into a run in progress missing a few DPS and the other healer. Okay, fair enough, clearly a few mistakes were made and DF quitters gonna quit. So our party fills up, the two WARs decide on an MT. Then the MT starts getting torn apart like a tissue, the OT neglects to activate the adds, and we wipe.
The tanks had a few 250/260s... in the accessories. The rest was a mixed bag of dungeon gear, AF3, even some Void Ark stuff, none of which I would mind about except their defense and vitality were shot to shit. So the next round consisted of the two healers basically focusing on the tanks at the expense of everything else. OT forgot to activate the adds again at one point, and Full Metal Faust *almost* didn't die in time... but we cleared. Then the tanks jumped ship before they could be told to get some freaking left-side gear.

I now have a huge disdain for Snowcloak. In a dungeon with a friend, level 50 roulette. We get Snowcloak, I thought "No problem". We're going about our stuff, then we get to the second boss. One of the BLMs (as in, the one that isn't my friend), is killing all the Spriggan Icecutters, which you need to convert to snowballs. And I don't mean AoEing them down, I mean single target spells. So as my mate speaks German and this person was German, they tell them in German to not kill the Icecutters. They don't stop. So then I tell them in English (bear in mind at this point I'm ready to smash my face into my keyboard in frustration). I don't think they stopped even after that. I didn't kick up a stink in the group about it, but man did I feel my patience tested there.

Sophia ex, where I was Queen Derpina.

We were running out of time on first and third demiurge, so I hit lightspeed and malefic II. 1st demi had kenoma up. My sad lala ass was sent flying over the edge before I realized it and couldn't stop the 2nd malefic in time. Round 2, I overadjusted at the edge for one of the tilts, and promptly walked OFF the arena, to the amusement of the party. Then later, as I'm running around in a panic, trying to res as many dead ppl as I can while keeping tank alive and squeezing out the last bits of my MP, I run to the wrong end. The remanants of the party follow me and it's an oh-sh-..... moment before we get dumped to our deaths. We cleared, thankfully on 4th try, I got congratulated on living up to the lolgoon reputation and got 4 pity comms >_>;

Moral of the story: Don't run SopEx when you're still in lala-land.

A10, with a PLD MT and a newbie DRK. No big deal, the mechanics aren't complicated for a tank at all.

Except that people keep triggering traps. The PLD complains about this, and I point out that he has the boss' ass planted directly on one of the buttons. I'm a BLM so of course I don't need to go anywhere near him, but the other 3 DPS are a MNK, NIN, and DRG, so yeah. So he moved it, or at least attempted to.

At the DPS check, I find DPS to be abysmally slow for some odd reason. Usually that phase can show up in less than a minute, most runs I'm in, but in this one the DPS check only happened at around 80-90 seconds into the fight, timed by Ley Lines cooldown. And Steam Roller got to cast 3 times before the thing died.

But we didn't wipe... until the adds showed up. An unfortunate series of events happened, like someone activating a trap just as I get a bunch of big yellow arrows pointing at my head. Did you know Bomb Toss hits you for 45k if no one else stacks with you? Then the NIN died, and the goblin adds exploded, and it was not a pretty sight.

I'm not really even annoyed about any of this, but what I am annoyed about is the PLD who paid no attention at all to the jobs of the DPS and stuck to crappy positioning for his own convenience, then complained about people triggering traps.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

Ruin has a potency of 80.
Stone has a potency of 140.

So, yes.

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I'm guessing she was throwing her personal RP into the mix, and casting stone didn't fit that bill. Much like ice mages or thunder mages.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

how do you access floor 101+?

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To access 101+ you have to start from 51 with a fixed group. Beat 51-100 without any wipes, and you'll be able to get to 101+ ONLY WITH THE FIXED GROUP YOU STARTED WITH. There is no matchmaking for those floors just yet.

Eh, some pages ago, somebody in this thread presented a text command to remove status ailments, and I think Frowny uses it to remove Arrows from his DRG. I can't find the command anymore, what was it again? :o

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Originally Posted by Fluestergras

Eh, some pages ago, somebody in this thread presented a text command to remove status ailments, and I think Frowny uses it to remove Arrows from his DRG. I can't find the command anymore, what was it again? :o

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It's /statusoff [status] I think :x

A10. We're at the boss and I'm on discord with some friends while running it. We consist of the 2 tanks and 2 of the DPS. I'm a WAR and my friend is a PLD, so she MT's and I'm OT. During the fight I hear, "Who the hell is standing on the trap button?!"

It was me ._.

Whoops.

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Originally Posted by Rhyku

It's /statusoff [status] I think :x

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Yep, it works :o Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Fluestergras

Eh, some pages ago, somebody in this thread presented a text command to remove status ailments, and I think Frowny uses it to remove Arrows from his DRG. I can't find the command anymore, what was it again? :o

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Why would you remove free DPS? :|

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Why would you remove free DPS? :|

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Melee DPS can wind up eating through their TP pretty fast as-is. So sometimes Arrow winds up doing more harm than good in the long run.

Anywho, in the latest contribution to "Classes in End-Game", I queued up for A11 recently. Pretty rough run, wiped once or twice, but pulled through in the end. Towards the end of the first wipe though, I couldn't help but take notice that one of the DPS was...a Thaumaturge. In an excessively gaudy glamour at that.

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Originally Posted by ZhaneX

Melee DPS can wind up eating through their TP pretty fast as-is. So sometimes Arrow winds up doing more harm than good in the long run.

Anywho, in the latest contribution to "Classes in End-Game", I queued up for A11 recently. Pretty rough run, wiped once or twice, but pulled through in the end. Towards the end of the first wipe though, I couldn't help but take notice that one of the DPS was...a Thaumaturge. In an excessively gaudy glamour at that.

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That argument makes little sense though. Arrow doesn't make you eat more TP per damage spent. You'll do the same amount of damage when you barrel out your TP, whether it is 30 seconds or 25 seconds, but one way you do the same damage in 25 seconds vs 30 seconds. All removing it does is make you do less damage per second.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

I tell the BRD to look before they intend to do a mechanic because we could've nearly wiped there, and as far as I know, the Harmachis does no cleaves in Machina form. They tell me "Usually, the DPS does the mechanic and not the tank. I guess I'm sorry you're mad.", I responded to them with "I'm not mad, just amazed someone is so stupid", and it just baffles me how you can tunnel vision so badly in ARF, second boss, of all places.

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DPS can tunnel vision anywhere. It happens. And that BRD is actually right in saying usually tanks don't bother to help out with that mechanic. I've never seen one actually make any effort to move, even if a melee already right at the boss is the one bound. I don't really think your response in calling them stupid for just trying to properly do a mechanic (which some people still don't even try to do because they want to BURN BURN BURN THE BOSS), and making an honest mistake, was at all appropriate or even called for.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

That argument makes little sense though. Arrow doesn't make you eat more TP per damage spent. You'll do the same amount of damage when you barrel out your TP, whether it is 30 seconds or 25 seconds, but one way you do the same damage in 25 seconds vs 30 seconds. All removing it does is make you do less damage per second.

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Could be an arggo thing also. Someone mentioned this is grand detail a few pages back. But it makes sense, I've never done it before but I can see why a DPS would do it in some extreme cases.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

That argument makes little sense though. Arrow doesn't make you eat more TP per damage spent. You'll do the same amount of damage when you barrel out your TP, whether it is 30 seconds or 25 seconds, but one way you do the same damage in 25 seconds vs 30 seconds. All removing it does is make you do less damage per second.

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You get 60 TP back per tick, and the TP refresh tick happens at the same time no matter if you have a 2.5s GCD or a 1.5s GCD. If you're already getting lowish on TP, then getting an Arrow might make you have to wait for your next tick to start hitting stuff again, which is probably more of a DPS loss than clicking off Arrow.

I like going fast, but it has its consequences.

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Originally Posted by ErdrickLoto

You get 60 TP back per tick, and the TP refresh tick happens at the same time no matter if you have a 2.5s GCD or a 1.5s GCD. If you're already getting lowish on TP, then getting an Arrow might make you have to wait....I like going fast, but it has its consequences.

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You just reminded me of a SephEx clear (my clear, actually) that I was doing with a DRG who revealed they had over 1,000 skill speed because they "like spamming abilities" because "it's fun." I wonder what an enhanced arrow would have done for their poor TP. Since they were already harassing me for TP song before the adds even showed up. :x

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Originally Posted by ErdrickLoto

You get 60 TP back per tick, and the TP refresh tick happens at the same time no matter if you have a 2.5s GCD or a 1.5s GCD. If you're already getting lowish on TP, then getting an Arrow might make you have to wait for your next tick to start hitting stuff again, which is probably more of a DPS loss than clicking off Arrow.

I like going fast, but it has its consequences.

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Exactly, you get the same TP back, you don't get it back slower. So you're not sacrificing it. You're just doing less damage in the same time frame for no reason. There is no consequence. Mathematically, you are doing less GCD's in the same time, which means you are doing less damage in the same time. That means you are doing less damage per second, and stuff is taking longer to kill.

Skill speed has less benefit than CRT/DET due to the TP refresh, in that TP refresh limits how much of an increase of a DPS you will see - but it is still an increase. That is why the stat weight is still positive, and not negative, albet less than CRT/DET

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

That argument makes little sense though. Arrow doesn't make you eat more TP per damage spent. You'll do the same amount of damage when you barrel out your TP, whether it is 30 seconds or 25 seconds, but one way you do the same damage in 25 seconds vs 30 seconds. All removing it does is make you do less damage per second.

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You are correct, removing it will give you less DPS for the fight as a whole. The big thing people are dancing around is that the objectively high boost comes at the cost of less DPS during late phases. Your overall output will be higher, but it'll make you bottom out sooner, and late phases in general need higher DPS (obviously this is not a universal thing, but fights generally get more intense as they go). It's like burning the LB on an early phase when you need to save it for a big DPS check later. It may give you more DPS averaged out over the fight, but it will potentially give you less when it really matters.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

You are correct, removing it will give you less DPS for the fight as a whole. The big thing people are dancing around is that the objectively high boost comes at the cost of less DPS during late phases. Your overall output will be higher, but it'll make you bottom out sooner, and late phases in general need higher DPS (obviously this is not a universal thing, but fights generally get more intense as they go). It's like burning the LB on an early phase when you need to save it for a big DPS check later. It may give you more DPS averaged out over the fight, but it will potentially give you less when it really matters.

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That makes sense; however, I can't think of any current content where that actually matters. Content like Odin, or Bismark EX, there are clear DPS checks later on that you need to hit. Most current content, higher DPS upfront will have you skip phases, so it's actually better to frontload it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You just reminded me of a SephEx clear (my clear, actually) that I was doing with a DRG who revealed they had over 1,000 skill speed because they "like spamming abilities" because "it's fun." I wonder what an enhanced arrow would have done for their poor TP. Since they were already harassing me for TP song before the adds even showed up. :x

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...I'd like to add the disclaimer that I don't like skill speed that much, jeez. I at least manage to use each of my GCDs. (Though I also haven't done any EX content yet, so how much that would hurt my TP bar has yet to be seen.)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Exactly, you get the same TP back, you don't get it back slower. So you're not sacrificing it. You're just doing less damage in the same time frame for no reason. There is no consequence. Mathematically, you are doing less GCD's in the same time, which means you are doing less damage in the same time. That means you are doing less damage per second, and stuff is taking longer to kill.

Skill speed has less benefit than CRT/DET due to the TP refresh, in that TP refresh limits how much of an increase of a DPS you will see - but it is still an increase. That is why the stat weight is still positive, and not negative, albet less than CRT/DET

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I think what ErdickLoto is getting at isn't that your TP refreshes any slower, but that you will burn through it faster than it can replenish itself while in battle, resulting in a DPS loss later when you're sitting at 0 or sub-60 TP, and unable to perform any GCD skills until you get enough TP to continue on with your rotation (since the Arrow has no effect on your oGCD refresh rate, and even with a higher skill speed, you still gotta wait for them to come back before you can effectively weave them into your rotation).

A good example of a job burning TP like there's no tomorrow would probably be monk (and dragoon as well, but I'm using monk as an example here). They already require 700+ skill speed just so their rotations can flow better, and go smoothly, as well as put out optimal DPS for a monk. Sure they have access to Invigorate, but it also has a cooldown, and if they're hit with an enhanced (or even expanded) arrow, and bottom out faster than they normally would, then it does prove to be a DPS loss later on until they can Invigorate again. Because all they can do is auto-attack while at sub-50 TP until the refresh tick hits and they can perform the next action in their combo/rotation.

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Originally Posted by ErdrickLoto

...I'd like to add the disclaimer that I don't like skill speed that much, jeez. I at least manage to use each of my GCDs. (Though I also haven't done any EX content yet, so how much that would hurt my TP bar has yet to be seen.)

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Oh, no no. I wasn't saying that you love SkSpeed that much. XD Just that your comment (and the TP consumption/Arrow buff removal conversation in general) reminded me of that DRG I met. And how curious I would be to see what would happen to his TP under the influence of an enhanced arrow. I've honestly never seen TP drop so quickly, and I wasn't the only one who said he was being dumb for having such a stupidly high amount of skill speed. I don't think DRG needs more than 700 (not sure though since I don't play DRG that often, and when I do, just to derp around with my FC), so 1,000+ is entirely unnecessary.

But sorry if it came out that I was saying you liked high skill speed. Wasn't my intention. :x

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I think what ErdickLoto is getting at isn't that your TP refreshes any slower, but that you will burn through it faster than it can replenish itself while in battle, resulting in a DPS loss later when you're sitting at 0 or sub-60 TP, and unable to perform any GCD skills until you get enough TP to continue on with your rotation (since the Arrow has no effect on your oGCD refresh rate, and even with a higher skill speed, you still gotta wait for them to come back before you can effectively weave them into your rotation).

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I get that, what I am sayng is there is no "dps loss", you are just doing more DPS now and less later for an overall higher DPS. You still get your TP back at the same rate, so you can still do at least the same number of attacks, but in 99% of scenarios, you will do more attacks.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I get that, what I am sayng is there is no "dps loss", you are just doing more DPS now and less later for an overall higher DPS. You still get your TP back at the same rate, so you can still do at least the same number of attacks, but in 99% of scenarios, you will do more attacks.

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While I can't say if the increased DPS under the influence of the Arrow would even out the DPS loss you would suffer later from TP loss, I think a lot of melee would just prefer not to run the risk. Hence why they click off the buff. Whether or not they balance out the other would probably require some testing on a striking dummy with a parser. I'm genuinely curious, so I may ask an FC mate to aid me in this experiment later.

A lot of it would probably rely on several conditions. Such as:
--Was the Arrow Enhanced, Expanded, or Extended?
--Current Skill Speed of the DPS receiving the buff.
--How long are they without TP if they bottom out later?
--Are there any party members available to help them refresh TP faster (AST with Spire, BRD/MCH with song/turret)?

Maybe for some it would balance out in the end, resulting in no overall DPS loss. Maybe some it would only positively affect DPS output. And maybe some it would be a huge DPS loss due to either high skill speed, poor TP management, lack of Invigorate, lack of party members able to help out with TP regen, etc. Would be interesting thing to test out. :3

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

While I can't say if the increased DPS under the influence of the Arrow would even out the DPS loss you would suffer later from TP loss, I think a lot of melee would just prefer not to run the risk. Hence why they click off the buff. Whether or not they balance out the other would probably require some testing on a striking dummy with a parser. I'm genuinely curious, so I may ask an FC mate to aid me in this experiment later.

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Mathematically, it is impossible to lose out on DPS. You will gain DPS if generally you finish a fight above 0 TP. If you finish a fight at 0 TP, it's likely the Arrow will give you no net benefit or loss.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Why would you remove free DPS? :|

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Fun how you discuss for about a page without waiting for my answer :o
I didn't ask because I want to remove an Arrow, I just said I remember Frowny removing Arrows with a text command and I wanted to know which one it is. I want to use it to remove an AOE Royal Road quickly for the case I draw a card that I can play better in single target, for example an Ewer on myself. For myself, removing an Arrow would be just stupid. I'm a blackmage, I have infinite MP, why would I want to remove a card that doesn't give me any disadvantages? O.O

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

While I can't say if the increased DPS under the influence of the Arrow would even out the DPS loss you would suffer later from TP loss, I think a lot of melee would just prefer not to run the risk. Hence why they click off the buff. Whether or not they balance out the other would probably require some testing on a striking dummy with a parser. I'm genuinely curious, so I may ask an FC mate to aid me in this experiment later.

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You don't need to test it. Mathematically, it is a net gain to keep the buff, EVENTUALLY resulting in a net zero further down the line, but never negative. It just feelsbadman.jpg when you bottom out earlier.

To better visualize it, take a look at an absurd example, so the difference is more visible.

Let's assume that you had a buff that gave you enough SS to drop all of your TP in the first few moments of a fight. Then you've bottomed out immediately. The resulting DPS from that is going to start off very high and taper off. It will keep dropping over time, as the fight gets longer, but it will never drop below where it would have been without the buff. And here's why: Once both examples (buffed and unbuffed) have bottomed out, they have spent the same amount of TOTAL TP. Because regen is unaffected, they both spent the same total. Make sense? Assuming the TP was spent the same way on both, the TOTAL damage done is the same. The buffed damage is simply all front-loaded. So, both even out in the very end. However, not all fights are going to be long enough for it to even out, in which case the buff always wins.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Mathematically, it is impossible to lose out on DPS. You will gain DPS if generally you finish a fight above 0 TP. If you finish a fight at 0 TP, it's likely the Arrow will give you no net benefit or loss.

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I would have to disagree. If you die in a fight, you lose DPS. Even if you are only down for 10 seconds, that's still 10 seconds of lost DPS. Coupled with weakness for 90 seconds after being raised, I don't think you can make up the DPS you lose from being dead (compared to if you didn't die at all).

Regardless if it is a loss or a non-loss, if melee want to click it off to prevent bottoming out earlier in a fight, that is really their choice. I don't care either way, but I main BRD, and only have TP issues if I AOE too much and fail to pay mind to my TP bar. I'm perfectly fine with an Arrow or a Balance; both are pluses for me. A person I know doesn't like Arrows at all on their DRG or MNK, and asks me explicitly not to give them any. Maybe they don't want to bottom out on TP later on. Or maybe they still think they'll lose out on DPS later from no TP. Who knows.

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Originally Posted by Fluestergras

I'm a blackmage, I have infinite MP, why would I want to remove a card that doesn't give me any disadvantages? O.O

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I don't know why, but I've run into more than a few ASTs at 60 who insist on giving me Ewers as a BLM. In Creator, even. I don't click it off, because I don't really need to, but I can't stop wondering why.

That said, it got me to thinking about which cards can actively become a disadvantage for BLM. I can't think of any of the effects that would straight up be a disadvantage, except maybe Spear, if it happened to be cast before the BLM starts their rotation. I know my rotation is based entirely around the cooldown times of Ley Lines, Enochian, Raging Strikes, and Convert, and messing those cooldown times up would probably cause me to mess up too.

Also, earlier today I landed in Final Steps with 3 MNKs and an AST. By the time we finished up the adds phase, all 3 MNKs were at around 500 TP each, yet I got a Balance while one of the MNKs received an Arrow. Although to be fair, given this discussion, I suppose it doesn't really matter, and I'm not entirely sure how much Arrow actually benefits me over Balance.

EDIT: I have 1200+ Spell Speed as BLM, and it's only going to get higher because I like having time to dodge AoEs. But the more SpSpeed I get, the less time Arrow takes off my cast time, while Balance is a straight-up gain no matter what. I'm already at the point where Convert is a staple in my rotation because the limiting factor in my Fire IV spam isn't the duration of Enochian, but my MP. When I don't have Convert available during the second Ley Lines/Enochian pop in my rotation (when both Raging Strikes and Convert are on CD), I have enough time to exhaust my MP, hop into Umbral Ice for 1 MP regen tick, then get back to Astral Fire and get one or even two Fire IVs off before getting back to Umbral Ice for Enochian refreshment. So I suppose it is entirely possible that an Ewer, maybe Extended or Enhanced, would be able to regenerate enough MP to negate the need for me to switch into Umbral Ice.

... not that I've been able to test this yet.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I would have to disagree. If you die in a fight, you lose DPS. Even if you are only down for 10 seconds, that's still 10 seconds of lost DPS. Coupled with weakness for 90 seconds after being raised, I don't think you can make up the DPS you lose from being dead (compared to if you didn't die at all).

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While I understand the scenario you're presenting I think you do need to approach it differently. There is zero benefit to dying. There is a benefit to gaining an attack speed +10% card. With that in mind the better question to ask is "Does a DPS front loading their DPS result in more overall DPS than having a phase where they run with zero TP for a short period of time?" and "Is there a benefit to front load the DPS at the risk of losing DPS later in the fight?" Of course the answer to these will vary from fight to fight and circumstance to circumstance.

• You're at zero TP with a DPS check phase coming up? Well crap..
• We're smashing A9S so fast we have no worry about TP issues? ARROW AWAY!
• Does Arrow cause me to clip my DoTs far sooner than I would like? Hmmm....

The theorycraft for Arrow is much more involved than a lot of people give it credit for and I can understand the pros and cons for both. There's no easy answer to "well, is Arrow good or not good?"

Of course the ultimate solution is "Why go for Arrow when we got BALANCE???!?!?!?!?!?!?!" *Grumbles softly at S-E about that*

My uber derp in Ravana HM last night. We had two new tanks and one new DPS. We explained the fight and right before Ravana starts to shove, I warned them he's about to do it and get to a wall. Guess who fell off first? My uber derp self.

:P it happens :)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

snip

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I feel like I was addressing this earlier, while not in the same terms as you have laid out. And perhaps my wording was not the best, but I was thinking about the situations you outlined in your post while typing out my response. Again, probably didn't do a good job at all of conveying that. My response you quoted there was just to say that it is mathematically possible to lose DPS in a fight--in other words, by dying. Didn't have anything to really do with the Arrow good/Arrow bad conversation. I also think one can lose DPS by going on auto-pilot and not paying attention as fights drag on, which happens more often than not, I've seen anyways.

Anyways, back to the off-topic topic!

I did express that there is a potential for DPS loss later on if a DPS bottoms out on their TP, and are left with nothing but the option to auto-attack/use a skill after each TP regen tick (and go sub-50/0 again) until either Invigorate comes off cooldown (if they have it cross-classed, which they should, but you know some people don't, either out of laziness or ignorance), or if they have a party member that can help them replenish TP (BRD/MCH or AST managing to pull a lucky Spire for them).

Let me bring up the DRG I met in my SephEx clear. They mentioned they had over 1,000 Skill Speed. And they were almost completely bottomed out before we even hit the add phase in that fight (which isn't really that far into the fight). I was imagining just what an Arrow would do to their TP, which is kind of what got me into this little debate we're having (even if it is very off-topic from the thread, still interesting to see the differing view points, nonetheless). Let's just say, worse cast scenario, they don't have any party members to immediately help them recover their TP (no BRD/MCH to play a song/use their TP turret, and the AST isn't having any luck drawing those silly Spires--because we all know the minute you need a Spire or a Ewer is the minute RNG decides to stop giving them to you). Let's say they used Invigorate already, and it is still on cooldown for another 90 seconds. There is 90 seconds of sitting at sub-60/0 TP. 90 seconds of DPS loss (since they can't really do much with only 60 TP), which in a fight like an EX primal that has an enrage, could mean the difference between a clear and hitting enrage--and it's even worse since they bottomed out before the add phase. This, while an extreme example, is why I can see why some melee click off the Arrow buff. Granted, TP loss for a DRG with 1,000 SkS is going to happen anyways, but I can see where melee wouldn't want to run the risk if they only had, say 700-750 SkS.

With that example above, I still think the potential buff from an Arrow doesn't really outweigh the loss that particular DPS would suffer after they bottom out. Like you said, a lot of the things are circumstantial and situational, and I agree with that. I still think some don't even want to run the risk of running out of TP earlier than they would in some fights--which is why they just rather click it off. I also agree with you that there is no solid "Arrow is good!" and "Arrow is bad!" answer.

Well, at least Balances will always have a plus... now if I saw a DPS click off a Balance, I would be concerned. ._.

Ahhhh find it troublesome on 80th PoD. Yesterday I tried twice and both wiped there. We couldn't get rid of it without a healer! Why did the match system set up a group with no healer (sometimes no tank either) for the 51+ floors? Even on the 30+ of the old version we seldom met with that occasion...
After all I don't want to try a team like that again...I know some others are capable, but for me, I should not overestimate myself. Just picked up my CNJ and tried to add a healer there....a clumsy solution, I know.

I queued for Leveling Roulette as PLD on a whim yesterday. So there I am, a level 60 PLD that is nicely overgeared, and I'm dropped into Gubal normal.

Normally, I'm not insane enough to attempt pulling multiple groups in there. But this time, the party was a WHM, BLM, and SMN, although all level 59. So I asked if we wanted big pulls, and came to a compromise that if we ended up wiping, I'd just pull normally.

And we made it. In all honesty, I probably should've just gone back to smaller pulls, since the DPS wasn't particularly stellar and the WHM couldn't DPS at all even with me chaining defensive cooldowns and throwing in the occasional Clemency, but it was actually fun, for a change, to constantly risk dying horribly. Because in this one instance, I actually felt assured that if we ended up wiping, nobody would be salty or swear at me over it. It's kind of sad how tanking is such a stressful job that playing like a reckless driver ends up being a rare but amazingly fun occasion.

With all my friends running Palace without me at the moment, I was kinda stuck with running roulettes as usual yesterday. So ran them I did. And Lvl 60 roulette lands me in Sohr Kai with a warrior that had the hardest time holding hate. Even with Quelling I was sitting at yellow-orange on most mobs, without I was outright tanking them. Of course there was a geared ninja that was splitting hate with me, and even the AST got in on the fun.

After a close examination, I think this might have been the culprit. AND possibly the ilvl 150 chest piece. But hey, he had his lore accessories!

I don't like getting an Arrow, enhanced, expanded, extended, whichever, when I'm on dragoon for one simple reason: TP ticks happen at the same rate, no matter what. Yeah, it's theoretically a gain for me if I go faster, but my general dragoon rotation alone is a loss of, in the event I manage to not accidentally clip and do a GCD before the refresh tick happens, 60 per rotation (10 Heavy Thrust, 10 Impulse Drive, 30 Phlebotomise, 10 for whatever starts Full Thrust combo again).
That's one entire tick I lose every 20ish seconds, which means 180 TP per minute. Dragoon has the benefit of traited Invigorate, which is 500 TP - with a cooldown long enough that you might be dipping below 400-500 again when it comes off CD.
An Arrow speeds that whole process up and has me at a disadvantage because Arrow doesn't do anything to Invigorate's cooldown.
In A9S I've used Invigorate by the time Full-Metal Faust drops and it's still on CD, any AOEing I did on packs outside of Geirskogul and one Dragonfire Dive notwithstanding.

So yeah, I can relate to people who click off Arrows as melee DPS. It's already a pain, and hey, it might be an increase but might make you suffer in the long run. It's already bad enough I got chewed out by someone in A9N once because I was basically throwing up TP - I constantly got the Arrow, you see. Single target. Enhanced. At some point I was sitting there at a flatlined 0 and had to wait two ticks to even START my rotation again, because Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive both cost 70 TP - thats 120-70+60-70+60... Yeah, I've already lost 20 again. Invigorate is on Cooldown and people are chewing me out. Yeehaw
(Then again I'm too lethargic to click off an expanded Arrow, it doesn't do that much damage to my TP, but the others are... shouldn't you be putting that enhanced arrow on the casters. Please. I'm dying.)

Related; got Snowcloak on 50 Roul. Tank's doing massive pulls and I'm a little rusty on WHM, doesn't really matter though.I'll refrain from DPSing then, I'm fine with healing through that... Except tank misses an Ice Sprite, it chews me up so I try healing myself, tank get's chomped to death, we wipe. Tank and I apologise, both BLMs joke around with us - tank pulls again, smaller this time... and I let him die because my sister's distracting me with a story about our bunnies.
Tank jokes about sacrificing the Lala BLM to Fenrir to make up for my hubris, I say they better release me from the Relic by doing so...
Ends with
"Hope he likes cats"
"He's technically a dog, he should (like me)"
I left with 3 comms. Felt good.

I need to point out that "clicking off" buffs is a gigantic pain in the ass on controllers.

The fact that there are so many examples of sound disadvantages to every card, and how even "good" card is situational to the point even they can trip up otherwise skilled players, is basically what had me finally hang up my globe. I'd rather just have more DPS and heal options at this point, despite how aethetically fitting astrologian is for me.

Oh well. I'm just gonna main SMN now. :D

Speaking of which, I found myself a little too terrified to LB with a melee in my party on Chrysalis last night. Our mistake was our melee was the newbie, so despite our warning him to save the LB for the tear, we didn't say when the tear spawned for him to LB it.

Second round, he did flawlessly, but I still felt awkward for not just doing it myself after seeing he wasn't ready >.<